50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Been recovering after a 15 mile trail race with about 4000ft of elavation.

Came in reasonable 10k shape - solo time trialed 40:50 10k the day after the frustratingly cancelled Prefontaine Memorial/RRC National Championships, back in September, which at closing in on 65 would suggest I was getting close to age graded best.

Did do some trail runs, several hard 75 minute runs the day after track sessions.

Trail run went pretty well for about 11 miles - did have some calf cramp early - but having failed to take any gels/liquid at the first aid station, I then had a massive bonk. Quite a struggle from there to the next aid station which was at 13, and then the last two miles, with lots of cramping.

Pretty happy I could hang around the top 15 with younger crown until the bonk. Was losing ground on the downhills to the youngsters, but catching up on the uphills. Was fine from a cardio vascular standpoint, nearly maxed out on a long steep hill at about 6 miles, but dropped down again quickly on the flat/downhill. I think if I'd have stopped to take a few gels and rehydrate better, I'd have got to the second aid station OK, and could have refueled then and would have been fine.

Didn't do any real damage, was fine to walk the dogs in the pm. Just had sore calves for a few days. Race was November 21, and have been back to regular running for a couple of weeks. Don't feel like I'm really back yet, as quads are often tired. Did have a reasonable run yesterday with 6 miles at 7:17 average, including 2 miles of 100m fast/100m steady, at 6:50ish pace, but back to 8:00+ pace for 5 today.

Geez. Sorry to hear about your situation. Wonder why you have to wait so long. Anyway hope it isn't too serious

Happy Boxing Day.

Work and numerous medical consultations took up most of my December. To the point that I did not take time to read the website or sift through the garbage that is Message Board to arrive here.

My Boston is 16 weeks away and I appear to have entered into a slight groove: not fast enough but neither too slow.

The running week that was for this this soon-to-be 63 year old runner of 44 years:

M- 4(800m uphill; 1:00 rest; 800m down; 1:00 rest) - 9:30 pace up; 8:10 pace down - 9M total

T- 5.5M easy

W- 10M (middle 8M @ 9:10 avg)

Th- 5.5 easy

F- the Saturday small group run of 13M @ 9:30 avg

I almost was able to hang onto the group who usually run much faster

S- Christmas

S- 4M easy

Time to ease into the program and divest myself of full time work.

Enjoy the day

Greetings and hope most enjoy this holiday time!

Perhaps the topic below will be of interest for some.

I looked at the Master Athletics AG 2022 calculator recently (that is tougher than e.g. the USATF MLDR 2020 calculator) and found that for the same AG % the ratio 10K_time/5K_time is considerably higher.

I was always interested in defining this ratio for elite runners and undertook a small and shallow study. Selected only those who seriously competed at the world top level with 5K PBs under 13 min and 10k under 27 min. Thus, guys like Legese, Geremew, Kimmeto, Cherono and many others are not present because they were/are focused on the M and HM only. For the same reason El G and Jacob Ing. are not present (they do not have 10K results under 27).

PB_10K/PB_5K:

Barega (Tokyo Olys 10K gold) – 2.10

Kejelcha (Tokyo Olys podium) – 2.10

Ahmed (Tokyo Olys podium) – 2.112

Kipchoge – 2.097 (early and mid 00’s, before his M-era)

Bekele – 2.087 (early and mid 00’s)

Gebreselassie – 2.086 (during his 5K/10K times)

Cheptegei – 2.081

Kiplimo – 2.074

Kimeli -2.10

Rupp – 2.053

Now, to the AG calculators.

USATF MLDR 2020 calculator

For M63 and 85% ("my numbers") it returns 19:10/5K and 39:15/10K, thus the ratio is 2.047 and it surprised me a lot.

This calculator really admits that old geezers are dying slower than G.O.A.T.s, ha-ha. Even Rupp who is likely the most “universal soldier” (showing great results from 5K though full M) is slightly above this bar.

Master Athletics AG 2022 is much more demanding as far as absolute times are concerned, and for M63 85% it requires 18:41/5K and 38:47/10K. However, the ratio is somewhat relaxed vs. the previous one - 2.076. Nevertheless, still tougher than for G.O.A.T.s. I find it strange.

Another strange thing is that my own ratio is currently 2.09, while I was sure that with my very low mileage 10K was/is way out of my capability as compared with 5K. But this number is well within the above listed.

Does it mean that training for 5K and 10K is not so much different? Keep thinking.

interesting analysis. I guess I have much better endurance than Bekele etc., as my ratio (for PR times) is 2.017.

A nit picker might point out that my 10k PR was from a net-downhill point to point road course with total of one turn and on that day a significant tailwind....

Happy Boxing Day. We're enjoying a fun visit with the one of our daughters who lives within (long) driving distance. Mostly easy training incl.:

M 1:35 double

Tu 55:00 + 1:00 x-t

W 1:25 with 2 X 10:00 at half-marathon effort (a few steps shy of 1.5 miles each) (2:00 jog)

Th 1:30 double + 1:00 x-t

F 1:10

Sa 30:00 before opening presents (28-year old offspring doesn't get up as early as they both did in the old days)

Su 1:00 + 1:00 x-t

have a great last week of '21,

Dave

Age Grade Factors are a moving target , The factors in play when I set my best AG percents is what I use. They work well for my purposes.

To keep the plates spinning you gotta figure out which plate is starting to wobble.

For example 2 years ago I noticed a need for speed and got the speed plate spinning again. Next up is seeing if the 2 year emphasis helped my long stuff 3k-5k . I like green eggs and ham not tofu any race > 5k.

Recovery,Base,Speed,Race:

bunch of slow 1 to 2 hour runs sand dunes and long hills no more treadmill at the gym waiting for omicron wave to break. Two 30 minutes LTs standing on the bike up a 3 mile long fairly steep hill. Return trip is exhilarating.

Target May 7th 3000 Hayward Classic

Onward!

The xmas week was:

Mo 7 miles easy, 5x100m with jog back

Tu off, did not feel for running

We 30 min jumps and drills uphill, 6x60m uphill, 2x150m uphill

Th 7 miles easy, 5x100m with jog back

Fr 7 miles easy, 5x100m with jog back

Sa WU, 8x300m uphill with jog back, CD

Su 75 min easy

Happy running into 2022!

Grateful to have managed 40 miles this week, particularly as this time last year, I was homebound and mobile only via a knee scooter.

This was the first time I've been able to reach such volume in more than a year and a half. I hadn't 'planned' on running quite that much...it just kinda' happened 'organically', as I was attempting to squeeze out max mileage in order to achieve a certain knuckleheaded annual mileage benchmark ;}

Wishing everyone a stellar final training week of 2021...and a splendid New Year holiday

your pal,

MF

dhaaga wrote:

interesting analysis. I guess I have much better endurance than Bekele etc., as my ratio (for PR times) is 2.017.

A nit picker might point out that my 10k PR was from a net-downhill point to point road course with total of one turn and on that day a significant tailwind....

Well, my ratio (PR times from age 33) is 2.022, both run on honest, certified loop courses. I always sucked at 5K.

My half-marathon and marathon to 5K ratios (PRs) are 4.348 and 8.963. I don't know how those compare to elites but I'd guess even the elites who are marathon specialists are relatively faster at 5K than I was.

Greetings, fellow 50+ers! I will also add my best wishes for a Happy Boxing Day.

Yesterday at about the time one might expect Santa to arrive, my daughter received email notification of a positive PCR Covid test. Talk about finding coal in your stocking! Did I mention she is staying with us for the holidays? So, that obviously put a damper on the day’s festivities. She was rather despondent thinking that she might have infected her “elderly” parents, not to mention likely putting the kibosh on our upcoming travel plans. By mid-afternoon we were finally able to coax her double-masked self out of her quarantine room to open some gifts with us. Her mood has improved, but she is still understandably unhappy. The good news is her vaccination and booster shots have kept her from being symptomatic. My spouse and other daughter (staying with us for the weekend) have also been boosted and so far showing no ill effects from our close contact. We’ll see what happens in the coming days. Hoping for the best.

The other good news is that I was able to hit my weekly goal of 20 actual running miles. The weather again fluctuated between days with a high temp of 55° F and those featuring snow. Luckily my planned running schedule allowed me to avoid the worst weather of the week. But the colder days have required more layers which ultimately affects the intensity of the run while allowing for weekly volume to remain consistent. My previously reported ankle niggle is on the mend, though not yet quite 100%. Life is good!

Mon: 54’ CR; body wt ex + med ball routine

Tue: off

Wed: 53’ CR (w/ 1’ br break); body wt ex + med ball routine

Thu: 44’ running (3); 16 oz curls

Fri-Sat: off

Sun: 61’ CR; body wt ex + med ball routine

Best to most for a strong finish to 2021!

Holiday greetings, friends. I've been on vacation in Venice Beach, CA this week and have had the two best runs of an otherwise running-challenged, 95% biking year.

26 miles this week.

M: 3 slow

T: on the plane west

W: 7 @ 9:38 average: fastest run since 8/7/20. Last 3 @ 9:03, 8:49, 8:41.

Th: 3 slow

F: 3 slow + 35 sec @ 7:37, which felt wobbly. But we're coming back. (Ran a 10K at that pace in May 2019, my last race.)

Sat: 7 @ 9:20 average. Christmas miracle! Last 3 @ 8:54, 8:36, 8:26. V02 max is 47, up a notch. (It was 44 only seven weeks ago, when I started to run again after a year-long void.) Fastest run of the year, believe it or not.

Sun: 3 slow

To call on the spirit of John Paul Jones: I have not yet begun to train! No long runs over 9 miles, no true tempo runs, no intervals, one barely-a-hill-workout, no sustained 35-40 mpw. This is just the beginning.

Unless, of course, the L5 fragments or the back goes spiderwebby with pain or I crawl into bed, wracked and wrecked, gobbling down Methocarbamol to stop the spasms so that I can crawl to the bathroom and empty my bowels without passing out and soiling myself on the way. That's where I was 10 months ago, and 11 months ago.

Merry Christmas, all.

Very interesting subject Orient. My theory is that with advancing age it is more difficult for us to generate the anaerobic speed component of the 5k, and, therefore, the ratio shrinks due to both distances being run closer to pure aerobic effort. Due to my preference for XC racing I had to go back 9 years to when I was 63 to find a year where I ran both a quality 10k and 5k on the roads (38:57/18:48). My ratio at that time was 2.072.

I crossed over 2,000 miles for this year this morning. I continue to try to walk the fine line of good recovery and holding fitness with two weeks to USATF XC now. That turned into 28 miles this week (and a gain of 2lbs as of this morning).

M- 6mi walk

T- 6mi with 8x400 at 95-96 seconds/ 200 recover

W- rest

Th- 4 mile progressive run 8:30, 8:15, 8:00, 7:30

F- 2mi walk (then bake gingerbread and a cherry pie and party)

S- 4mi easy run

Su- 6mi walk

I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas!

amkelly,

9.69 marathon-to-5K for Rupp (2:06:07 and 13:01).

My week:

Mon-Wed – off

Getting out of the car on Mon. (while standing yet on the left leg only) slipped on an uneven and icy surface (covered with fresh snow) and “hit the planet”. Thought that my ribs cracked, but hopefully it was just a bruise. Did not visit a doc though, being very busy at work, also because it was getting slowly better. But it was painful to exercise for 3 days, even on an ellipse (to say nothing about skiing).

Also, first three days were quite cold here, -2…-4 F.

Thu – 10 min elliptical (warm-up), then skiing 50 min easy. Temp. 12-14F, but windy.

Fri – off, too busy at work

Sat – 15 min elliptical (warm-up), then skiing 60 min, incl. 20 min @LT by feel.

Sun – 10 min elliptical (warm-up), then skiing 75 min, incl. 27 min between LT and CV by feel.

Happy running to all!

Orient wrote:This calculator really admits that old geezers are dying slower than G.O.A.T.s ...

My initial reaction is this:

The 5K to 10K ratios indicate that oldsters -- rather than better maintaining their endurance -- are (not surprisingly) losing their "speed." Thus the 5K numbers are more accurately "worse" relative to the 10K results.

I get 2.19 ratio for my PRs at age 23. At age 58 it was 2.06, indicating the 5K became SLOWER compared to the 10K.

I trust everyone had an enjoyable Christmas. My son and I managed a seven mile hike mid-day; later enjoyed dinner, presents, and Die Hard 2 with the rest of the family. John McClain is one tuff cowboy. Yeepee Ki-yea.

I continued with a maintenance/hip flexor injury recovery week. Totals for the week, 2 hours spin bike, 2,000 yards swimming, and 13 miles walking.

Ruminating about 2022 training plan, feeling it is in my best interest health wise to take a step back. Although the longer races should be my forte, with still decent speed, questioning the wisdom of pounding this 71 year old body, perhaps now is the time for a complete revamp? To begin new year focusing on 400 meter to 3,000 meter training, which may seem like a wide range. Targeting the middle at this range, with years of background in the sport, allows one to race at either end. At least reasonably, and acceptable standards for this athlete.

Have a good week.

Igy

My 5K:10K ratio was 2.05 this year, all-time was 2.07.

As far age grading, are 2022 factors going to be implemented? Everything I have seen so far says "proposed." I'd like to have those updated only every decade or so and agree you go by when you ran the time, not by current standards if you ran XYZ 35 years ago.

43 miles, one XC ski outing of 1:25 through a lot of wind and new snow this week.

M62, 5'11", 183 lbs

Race Calendar:

12 Feb -- 10 Miles

24 Apr -- Half Marathon

29 May -- Marathon

Looking at past marathon results (typically very warm weather), a 3:30 would almost guarantee a Top 3 finish, M60-64. On hottest years, as slow as 3:45 placed third.

It's almost time to write up a 20-week training plan. Maybe a nine-day schedule, average 20 miles per 7-day week. Then bump that to 30 for a couple weeks in early May. And shoot for 8:00 pace on race day!

DEC 20-26, 2021

M - Off

Tu - 10.0 miles (@ 9:34 out, 9:08 back)

W - Off

Th - 6.0 miles (10:50, 9:53, 9:38, 8:52, 8:21, 7:47)

F -- Off

Sa - Off

Su - 4.0 miles (9:22, 8:43, 8:30, 8:08)

TOTAL: 20.0 MILES

Be well.

I discovered something that gave me some encouragement. Since June I’ve been suffering from a really weird pronounced asymmetry in my running and walking gait that seems to stem from a lack of coordination or mistiming in the stride on my left leg. I “limp” badly and can’t generate any power from my left leg, but nothing hurts. Until now I had been unable to find any serious leg strength asymmetry, and had concluded that the problem must be neurological. But one leg exercise I didn’t normally do was the leg press, since that always felt dangerous to my knees. My gym just got a bunch of new machines including a leg press with a somewhat different geometry, and I tried it out on Xmas Eve. I was stunned to discover that while I could lift at least 30 pounds with my right leg, at first I couldn’t budge 10 pounds with my left and could barely lift that much after a long warmup of 2-legged lifts. I have discovered a huge strength asymmetry and I hope that if I can fix that, my walking and running stride will normalize. Unfortunately getting there may be painful—my left hip is now quite sore after two attempts at leg lifts two days apart, and I may not be able to jog at all for a while. At least now I have something definite to work on!

My week, such as it was:

Mon: 4.1 mile jog, gym, 45 min bike trainer

Tues: 4.5 mile jog, gym, 15 mile bike ride

Weds: 4.1 mile jog that felt awful, 45 min bike trainer, gym

Thurs: 4.1 mile jog that felt awful, gym including 9 min on rowing machine, 49 min bike trainer

Fri: 47 min bike trainer, gym, 15 mile bike ride

Sat: 1.1 mile jog, 50 min bike trainer, 7 mile bike ride aborted by rain

Sun: 1.9 mile jog, 54 min bike trainer, 15 mile bike ride, gym

Wishing everyone a Happy New Year.

Had one session this week that made me feel I was getting back to where I was before I did the 15 mile trail race.

Eight miles at 7:11 average, including 6x4 minutes fast/4 minutes steady (which averaged about 7:07 for that segment).

Close to being 8 miles at 55:00 pace for 10 miles age graded. Eight miles including warm-up 6x4 min with 4 min recovery and warm-down would have been good for me as an open runner, so I think I'm coming back. Just got to get to that type more consistently.

It's within 30 seconds a mile of what would be an OK pace for 10k (say 6:40 per mile), so I'll take that.