This thread was deleted by a volunteer moderator. I certainly don't want a thread this big deleted so I've restored. THat being said, this thread has served it's purpose. I've closed it to new posts.
We have a new 2024 vaccine thread here. New people don't need to try to wade through 20,000 posts to figure out what is going on.
This wasn't addressed to me, but let me answer for myself.
For those with an open mind reading this, please consider the following approach.
When forming beliefs and making decisions, I use my own logic tree. It varies depending on the circumstances, but it goes something like this. What can I deduce by applying the following logical approaches?
- Occam's razor
- Trustworthy (What is their past history? Are they transparent? Open? Honest? Evasive?)
- Follow the money (Who benefits financially? Who is at risk financially?)
- Skin in the game. (What does this person have at risk? Career? Grants? Reputation?)
The zoonosis vs lab leak is a good example of Occam's razor. The lab leak overwhelmingly wins with Occam's razor, i.e., a worker at a BSL lab known to have safety issues that's known to be doing gain of function research on bat coronaviruses gets accidentally infected and one of the places the virus breaks out first is the #1 location that's known for virus breakouts due to ideal conditions known to spread viruses and that's known to be conveniently in commuting distance from WIV and is known to be the largest wet market in Wuhan.
Conversely, the zoonosis theory requires acceptance of multiple highly improbable events, failing Occam's razor. (If you can't see this, ask and I'll explain it to you.)
For confirmation, we can apply the rest of the logic tree to see if they confirm the lab leak theory.
Are the Chinese trustworthy? Open and transparent? Or, are they evasive? No need to go into detail to answer that!
Follow the money: This one is also pretty clear. EcoHealth was doing GoF research with the wink wink approval of Collins (NIH) and Fauci. Also, there are MASSIVE MASSIVE financial implications if China allowed the world to find out that they allowed a deadly virus to escape their lab.
Skin in the Game: Who has the most to lose? Fauci, Collins, EcoHealth, and China are all on the hook for financial or possible criminal charges. In short, I wouldn't trust anything I heard from any of them. Further, emails obtained by FOIA revealed that Fauci and Collins collaborated to squelch the lab leak theory.
The same logic tree points to a cover up of vaccine adverse events, but this post is already too long so I may go into it in more detail in another post.
We've gone around and around on this a lot, but it seems like you are much more credulous of multi-step geopolitical hypothetical than evidences from the evidence and biology.
I believe the lab leak theory requires just as many highly improbable events – e.g. the only way to explain that the nonsensical furin site is to postulate deliberate obfuscating engineering which is a massive step from normal gain of function research. That fails Occam's razor completely. Sloppy/dangerous lab work vs. borderline bioweapons research who's only evidence is 'well the Chinese are probably doing this Bad Thing'. (why do it with coronaviruses? fun side question that Occam wouldn't like)
Lastly the good news is that nearly all the evidence around zoonosis vs. lab leak comes from researchers who aren't Fauci or Collins or any other boogeymen.
I still think a lab leak could have happened. The evidence is certainly not in it's favor but it's not ruled out.
Today, the NY Times has published a second article on vaccine adverse events! It's much more along the official line than the previous article.
Comments on the original article have been closed. Puzzling. You'd think that keeping the comments open would keep bringing people back to the website.
I wonder if comments like this one... it wasn't the only one with a similar theme... caused them to shut it down.
As someone who has always been firmly on the political left, I have been utterly appalled by my "side's" dismissiveness and outright cancelation of those who questioned the vaccines, the vaccine mandates, or, in the case of this article, vaccine injury. Many of been mocked or even worse--completely ignored. Many of us have fled to the RFK Jr. camp and will never look back and have abandoned the Democrats entirely. All this is due to the mean-spirited, myopic, and politicized Covid response, led by bought and paid for Big Pharma shills like Anthony Fauci and the CDC as a whole. The mainstream liberal-left has still much to answer for for what it did during Covid.
This was my contribution to the NYT comments. It was on there Friday afternoon about 3 hours after submission, but by Friday evening, it had mysteriously disappeared.
******
In December, 2023, the University of Cambridge’s Medical Research Council reported their findings about frameshifted or "rogue" proteins. They found frameshifted proteins were generated in 1 out of 4 people who took the Pfizer vaccine.
Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease can take 10 years to develop into symptoms and is caused by rogue proteins. I certainly hope CJD is not the fate of the mRNA vaccinated.
Because it's biologically inaccurate and borderline nonsensical.
I should make the same comment about all the aberrant protein products caused by (unvaxxed) covid vaccination. :)
Further, and I've said this before, as someone with limited experience in statistical analysis, I've done due diligence in looking at data behind claims put forward by some of the usual suspects (e.g. Fauci, Collins, ...) and the most polite conclusion is that their claims greatly exceed their supporting evidence.
"When polls said only about half of all Americans would take a vaccine, I was saying herd immunity would take 70 to 75 percent ... Then, when newer surveys said 60 percent or more would take it, I thought, "I can nudge this up a bit," so I went to 80, 85. We need to have some humility here .... We really don’t know what the real number is. I think the real range is somewhere between 70 to 90 percent. But, I'm not going to say 90 percent." Anthony Fauci, December 2020
So true. Back in March 2020, Fauci told the public... not once, but every day over a period of about a week... that masks wouldn't help, but we needed more PPE supplies for medical professionals. [For those who don't know what PPEs are, they're masks and similar supplies.] I turned to my wife, who has 23 years experience as a Registered Nurse, and said, "Did Fauci just say what I thought he said?" She said yes, that's what he said. I even played it back to be sure.
Let me translate with my own paraphrasing:
Masks don't work for the layman so quit buying them because you're limiting the supply for medical professionals. You see, when medical professionals wear masks, the miracle happens and they work!"
Then, he repeated it the next day and the next and the next. Eventually he reversed his position and later explained, again paraphrasing... "I lied to keep people from hoarding masks so we'd have enough for medical professionals."
WTF?! What happened to "above all, do no harm?"
Now, before we go off on a tangent about the effectiveness of masks, this is NOT about masks. It's about the official spokesperson of the White House Coronavirus Task Force in March 2020 lying to public and potentially adversely affecting the health of 330 million US citizens.
After that, I started listening to Fauci really closely. That man is better at parsing and weasel-wording phrases than anyone I have ever heard.
Mild mannered government bureaucrat makes dumb statements when thrust into public eye
You are incorrigible. I just did. Has been my hypothesis all along and you know it.
Also, I believe Fisky’s assertion that there are many, serious adverse vaccine events that have gone unreported, so the databases you guys leverage for your claims are inaccurate, but you want to believe that people like my friend are merely anecdotes and “someone’s friend’s cousin’s brother,” so they are make believe. Whatever, so be it.
Finally, yes, I believe your assertion that 1 million Americans died from Covid, many pre-vax, and we could’ve saved a high percentage of them if we weren’t so trapped in dogma.
I am up to date with all my vaccines besides influenza and the LNP-mRNA indiscriminate payloads, but somehow I’m an antivaxxer, like the Amish. Frankly, if you’ve merely had three Covid vaccines but no more, you are an antivaxxer too.
If ivermectin could have saved 1 million people, I suspect the clinical trials would have been a little more positive.
Or are you postulating that some other random supplement magically 'unlocks' the immune system? Sounds like something you'd see on late night TV in the 90s. Only 4 payments of 39.99.
You are incorrigible. I just did. Has been my hypothesis all along and you know it.
Also, I believe Fisky’s assertion that there are many, serious adverse vaccine events that have gone unreported, so the databases you guys leverage for your claims are inaccurate, but you want to believe that people like my friend are merely anecdotes and “someone’s friend’s cousin’s brother,” so they are make believe. Whatever, so be it.
Finally, yes, I believe your assertion that 1 million Americans died from Covid, many pre-vax, and we could’ve saved a high percentage of them if we weren’t so trapped in dogma.
I am up to date with all my vaccines besides influenza and the LNP-mRNA indiscriminate payloads, but somehow I’m an antivaxxer, like the Amish. Frankly, if you’ve merely had three Covid vaccines but no more, you are an antivaxxer too.
If ivermectin could have saved 1 million people, I suspect the clinical trials would have been a little more positive.
Or are you postulating that some other random supplement magically 'unlocks' the immune system? Sounds like something you'd see on late night TV in the 90s. Only 4 payments of 39.99.
Were you alive in the 1990s? I doubt it. You might’ve been born in the 1990s, but your parents wouldn’t have let you stay up that late.
You always love to talk about ivermectin, when it isn’t even mentioned. But, just curious, what would you prescribe for my friend on his two arrhythmia meds, prednisone and methotrexate, and with a defibrillator for his heart inflammation? A transplant?
If ivermectin could have saved 1 million people, I suspect the clinical trials would have been a little more positive.
Or are you postulating that some other random supplement magically 'unlocks' the immune system? Sounds like something you'd see on late night TV in the 90s. Only 4 payments of 39.99.
Were you alive in the 1990s? I doubt it. You might’ve been born in the 1990s, but your parents wouldn’t have let you stay up that late.
You always love to talk about ivermectin, when it isn’t even mentioned. But, just curious, what would you prescribe for my friend on his two arrhythmia meds, prednisone and methotrexate, and with a defibrillator for his heart inflammation? A transplant?
IVM is the crux of your poly-pharmacy argument. Slam a few hundred in useless additional supplements and fall for the placebo effect. That'll be $300, please
Can you remind me your stance on the safety and efficacy on the COVID vaccines? One sentence will do. Evidence (1 piece of non-anecdotal) would help!
Also do you believe 1M Americans died of COVID?
Is anyone really surprised?
“The risk of contracting COVID-19 was 1.5 times higher for those who received two doses, 1.95 times higher for those who received three doses, and 2.5 times higher for those who received three or more doses, the researchers found. The higher risk was compared to people who received zero or one dose of a vaccine.”
“The exact reason for this finding is not clear. It is possible that this may be related to the fact that vaccine-induced immunity is weaker and less durable than natural immunity. So, although somewhat protective in the short term, vaccination may increase risk of future infection.”
A very inconvenient paper. Even though people have observed this in real time. Good thing the barometer to clear hospitsl ERs is Covid vax status rather than a Covid test itself🙄😂
Were you alive in the 1990s? I doubt it. You might’ve been born in the 1990s, but your parents wouldn’t have let you stay up that late.
You always love to talk about ivermectin, when it isn’t even mentioned. But, just curious, what would you prescribe for my friend on his two arrhythmia meds, prednisone and methotrexate, and with a defibrillator for his heart inflammation? A transplant?
IVM is the crux of your poly-pharmacy argument. Slam a few hundred in useless additional supplements and fall for the placebo effect. That'll be $300, please
So are you going with the transplant then? Out of ideas? This only happens to “other” people of course. Phew😅😳
IVM is the crux of your poly-pharmacy argument. Slam a few hundred in useless additional supplements and fall for the placebo effect. That'll be $300, please
So are you going with the transplant then? Out of ideas? This only happens to “other” people of course. Phew😅😳
I think you can just write the next chapter where they recover bro. Their fate is in your hands.
Looking forward to the shocking season final where they kiss your daughter after bonding over the evilness of the vaccine. I'm definitely 'shipping' them.
“The risk of contracting COVID-19 was 1.5 times higher for those who received two doses, 1.95 times higher for those who received three doses, and 2.5 times higher for those who received three or more doses, the researchers found. The higher risk was compared to people who received zero or one dose of a vaccine.”
“The exact reason for this finding is not clear. It is possible that this may be related to the fact that vaccine-induced immunity is weaker and less durable than natural immunity. So, although somewhat protective in the short term, vaccination may increase risk of future infection.”
A very inconvenient paper. Even though people have observed this in real time. Good thing the barometer to clear hospitsl ERs is Covid vax status rather than a Covid test itself🙄😂
Yes, the one cleveland clinic dataset where an antivaxx doctor magically forgot to correct for all kinds of behavioral confounders.
I wonder why this never replicated in an other similar study?
So are you going with the transplant then? Out of ideas? This only happens to “other” people of course. Phew😅😳
I think you can just write the next chapter where they recover bro. Their fate is in your hands.
Looking forward to the shocking season final where they kiss your daughter after bonding over the evilness of the vaccine. I'm definitely 'shipping' them.
Yep, this is the very best you got. Harambe gets upset and starts seething about my daughter. So unpredictable 😂😂😂They must be make believe. They aren’t in the data😡
A very inconvenient paper. Even though people have observed this in real time. Good thing the barometer to clear hospitsl ERs is Covid vax status rather than a Covid test itself🙄😂
Yes, the one cleveland clinic dataset where an antivaxx doctor magically forgot to correct for all kinds of behavioral confounders.
I wonder why this never replicated in an other similar study?
Umm, no, this is a more recent data set looking at a very recent vaccine. Potential confounders are discussed and resolved. But, I get it, the Cleveland Clinic is barely a notch above Trump University!
I believe there are similar studies out of Iceland and Qatar. There are all kinds of confounders now. Very few totally unvaxxed left. Nobody is recruiting us for a study. Nobody is interested in finding anything that contradicts the official narrative. Wonder why.
So are you going with the transplant then? Out of ideas? This only happens to “other” people of course. Phew😅😳
Looking forward to the shocking season final where they kiss your daughter after bonding over the evilness of the vaccine. I'm definitely 'shipping' them.
You sound a little “pedo” and obsessive. Perhaps your parents let you watch too much late night TV for $39.99.
We've gone around and around on this a lot, but it seems like you are much more credulous of multi-step geopolitical hypothetical than evidences from the evidence and biology.
I believe the lab leak theory requires just as many highly improbable events – e.g. the only way to explain that the nonsensical furin site is to postulate deliberate obfuscating engineering which is a massive step from normal gain of function research. That fails Occam's razor completely. Sloppy/dangerous lab work vs. borderline bioweapons research who's only evidence is 'well the Chinese are probably doing this Bad Thing'. (why do it with coronaviruses? fun side question that Occam wouldn't like)
I'll concede that I'm not an expert on GoF research on coronaviruses and I don't know how researchers would go about splicing and testing furun cleavage sites (FCS), but I think you're viewing this too narrowly. That is, you're assuming that this particular varient was the desired outcome. In other words, it was the ONLY varient produced and it was the intended outcome.
Wouldn't scientists doing GoF research do more than ONE experiment? Or, do experiments in more than one approach?
Sars-CoV-2 could have been only one of dozens... maybe hundreds or thousands... of varients that were created. The unusual (according to you) FCS might have been the result of a mistake. Because... Occam's Razor... experiments often fail or have unanticipated outcomes.
It might have even been considered a failure and was marked for disposal, which could increase the potential for mishandling.
You're saying if would be very difficult for scientists to do it this way... but you seem to be admitting that they COULD do it his way.
You're saying that they wouldn't do it this way because it doesn't look like it would work. Well, that's what everyone believes about most mainstream scientific theories... until someone does it an proves them wrong.
Finally, you're assuming that this unusual FCS was the intended outcome. I don't think it was. Sars-CoV-2 is not highly contagious. It's not particularly deadly. I think it was just an interim step and possibly a failed step... or the GoF might not have been for a bioweapon at all. The Chinese reaction might have been not because Sars-CoV-2 was being developed as a bioweapon, but because other research on other viruses was being done at WIV that was trying to create a bioweapon.
I mean, China wasn't going to say, "This was just an innocent GoF escape. You're lucky our bioweapon research on ebola didn't escape! That would have wiped out your fat, Capitalist population while millions of healthy Chinese would have survived to rule the world. Buwaahahaha!"
No, China was going to say, "No, it wasn't us. The US started it with their research" Actually, that's kinda what they did do.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
I'll concede that I'm not an expert on GoF research on coronaviruses and I don't know how researchers would go about splicing and testing furun cleavage sites (FCS), but I think . . .
I'm not an expert on GOF research either which is why I tend to weight more heavily the opinions of those that are credentialed.
It's not a perfect heuristic but usually more reliable than any alternative.
I think you can just write the next chapter where they recover bro. Their fate is in your hands.
Looking forward to the shocking season final where they kiss your daughter after bonding over the evilness of the vaccine. I'm definitely 'shipping' them.
Yep, this is the very best you got. Harambe gets upset and starts seething about my daughter. So unpredictable 😂😂😂They must be make believe. They aren’t in the data😡
Harambro is one of those people who refuses to accept new information. He’s stuck in 2020/2021 - “you can’t get covid or spread Covid if you are vaccinated, if someone gets covid, put them on a ventilator, there are no adverse reactions to getting covid vax.” 🤦♂️
He probably believes that the position of a woman’s belly predicts the baby’s gender, you’ll grow hair on your palms if you masterbate, or any other old wive’s tales too.
The data and science have now shown Harambro to be wrong, but he stubbornly clings to his outdated beliefs. Perhaps blood-letting is the ultimate cure, Harambro. No adverse reactions, right?😂
Harambro is one of those people who refuses to accept new information. He’s stuck in 2020/2021 - “you can’t get covid or spread Covid if you are vaccinated, if someone gets covid, put them on a ventilator, there are no adverse reactions to getting covid vax.” 🤦♂️
He probably believes that the position of a woman’s belly predicts the baby’s gender, you’ll grow hair on your palms if you masterbate, or any other old wive’s tales too.
The data and science have now shown Harambro to be wrong, but he stubbornly clings to his outdated beliefs. Perhaps blood-letting is the ultimate cure, Harambro. No adverse reactions, right?😂
Mainstream media is even starting to crack (NY Times, Chris Coumo). The dam is about to burst for the vaxxer charade.
Harambro is one of those people who refuses to accept new information. He’s stuck in 2020/2021 - “you can’t get covid or spread Covid if you are vaccinated, if someone gets covid, put them on a ventilator, there are no adverse reactions to getting covid vax.” 🤦♂️
He probably believes that the position of a woman’s belly predicts the baby’s gender, you’ll grow hair on your palms if you masterbate, or any other old wive’s tales too.
The data and science have now shown Harambro to be wrong, but he stubbornly clings to his outdated beliefs. Perhaps blood-letting is the ultimate cure, Harambro. No adverse reactions, right?😂
Mainstream media is even starting to crack (NY Times, Chris Coumo). The dam is about to burst for the vaxxer charade.
Yet, here we have Harambro with his head in the sand screaming, “BUT, BUT THE CLINICAL TRIALS GUYS!”
People say it takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. In reality, it’s takes a small-mind not to accept new facts when they are presented to you. Stop living in 2020, Harambro.