50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

A change up week for me. My last month has been shorter more frequent sessions. This week I returned to less frequent longer sessions. In a month I will be running the 4 Peaks event (number 36) although unsure whether it will be officially happening. Anyway I will be there running the 4 mountains in 4 days.

So I figured I better check on the endurance. It seemed fine so I will return to the shorter more often plan this week.

Mon. Kayak 1 hour.

Tue. 1 hr 52 m hilly mtn bike.

Wed. 16 km rough trail run the first half very steep hills last half just rolling on rough single track. 450 metres elevation gain. 2 hours running

Thu. Kayak 1 hour.

Fri. 1 hr 54 m hilly mtn bike.

Sat. 16.3 km rough trail run 500 metres elevation gain. 1 h 53 m.

Sun. 9 km forest fartlek run 51 mins.

68 min mtn bike slog in rain, wind, mud.

Felt plenty strong on the longer runs.

The week:

Mo 8.5 miles easy

Tu 30 min jumps and drills uphill, 2x(4x40m uphill), 4 miles jog

We 7 miles easy, 5x100m with jog back

Th 12 km Z2 in 57:30 min (felt too good and dipped into Z3 last mile which was against my plan)

Fr 7 miles easy, 5x100m with jog back

Sa sore throat

Su head cold

Stay healthy, have a good week!

Charlie - Re taper;

"Taper worked I cut my running miles in half so like 25 minutes a day and only 1 fast day per week did this for10 days. Not sluggish at all so this was a first."

Excellent Charlie! = a 4:19 according to Grubb's calculator. Very nice.

I really like your taper plan too. May I 'borrow' it (no royalties involved however) for my 2022 competition year? I turn 65 in December and although I never ran mile races when in my prime (such as it was), I have enjoyed chasing those sub 6:00 times. Training for the 1500/miles still allows me the conditioning I think I need to do okay 5Ks.

I am looking forward to Lexington in 2022 for the USATF T&F Master's Outdoor Nationals in July and running the 1500m (new age bracket and all).

My reduced mileage plan is still in play - I decided to play around a bit by backing off my 50-55 mpw to around 40 and making the quality days count. Hard on hard and easy on easy.

I logged a decent 40+ mile week with 6x looong 400m hills on Monday jog recovery, 11x300 (100 walk recovery) on the dirt track Wednesday (no watch), a couple modest 800s Saturday, and a good tempo on Sunday (again no watch). Total 19% of the weekly mileage being 'quality work'.

I don't feel worn down spreading the harder stuff over several days, although I am aware that I may be better off with just two longer harder sessions. Thoughts, anyone?

Until next week....

Oops FAT was 5:38.40 , 5:37.59 was my stop watch

Tapering factors Spot on:

"Our studies indicate that an efficient taper may last between one and four weeks," he says. "The optimal duration does not depend on age, experience or event distance. It depends on each athlete's adaptation and recovery profile. Some athletes recover faster than others; some have long-lasting training adaptations, whereas some others detrain quickly. "

Quote from this Taper Article

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20851566/the-art-and-science-of-the-taper/

Kinda interesting....

Steve Spence xtrns on the elliptigo . His new goal is breaking his age in minutes for 10miles. Funny how this a lines well with breaking age in seconds for 400.

Article:

https://www.elliptigo.com/running-legend-steve-spence-shares-his-journey/

Not Done Just Yet wrote:

Charlie - Re taper;

"...

My reduced mileage plan is still in play - I decided to play around a bit by backing off my 50-55 mpw to around 40 and making the quality days count. Hard on hard and easy on easy.

I logged a decent 40+ mile week with 6x looong 400m hills on Monday jog recovery, 11x300 (100 walk recovery) on the dirt track Wednesday (no watch), a couple modest 800s Saturday, and a good tempo on Sunday (again no watch). Total 19% of the weekly mileage being 'quality work'.

I don't feel worn down spreading the harder stuff over several days, although I am aware that I may be better off with just two longer harder sessions. Thoughts, anyone?

Until next week....

If you are more FT, then this looks for me like a quick way to peak and to fall apart then. I would stick to 8% hard running and keep your good shape.

However, I am no coach. I am just a master of self destruction. Getting euphoric after getting into shape and starting too much hard running. My special recipe for desaster is the combination of hard interval work on track with hard tempos. Curious what the coaches here will tell

All the best.

In my coaching and personal experience dramatically reducing volume was the biggest taper mistake. Can lead to weight gain and feeling sluggish.

Charlie: My last race last year was my first tapered race and great results. Ran a respectable 1:17:35 carrying 10 lbs extra weight. Decided my training was not on track going into the race and was expecting 1:20 + unless this miracle taper thingy cut minutes off my time. My legs were so fresh I ran 35:48 first 10k split. Too fast but was able to survive the latter part of the race.

ATP - You throw down a 39.37 at over 70 and it is just a casual mention. Amazing and would love to see the response of the younger runners as you pass them.

IGY - Good volume week. What is this CV pace? I think it is around 10K pace. If this is accurate, my TH runs are more CV runs that I convince myself are TH :)

Dhaaga - Funny post and doubt you are going to be able find another American to push to the front in 2021.

MikeF - congrats on the 113,113!

My Week:

Great week of running and finally got the current record on the local Hoka ultra race route segment by 1 minute only to lose it one hour later. Trying for weeks but it was fun regardless. I’m running the short stuff very fast and in control but doubt it translates to fast times at 5k and above. Usually race half and full marathons with high volume training which negatively impact interval paces. In uncharted waters and am clueless if I could extend any of my 1-2 mile paces.

Monday: 5 miles high end easy and 1 hour treadmill walk in PM

Tuesday: 6x400 ( 77, 77, 74, 74, 73, 72 ) and 1 mile after 10 minute break @ 5:35/mi

Wednessday: 70 minutes easy and Pm 35 treadmill walk

Thursday: 40 minute run with 5 minutes of hill sprints of 15-60 seconds. PM 50 treadmill incline walk

Friday: 90 minutes on technical trails with 22 minutes at TH effort.

Saturday: After breaking down camp, went for 80 minute hike/run.

Sunday: 80 minutes on trails with two hard TH efforts of 6 minutes ( lost and had to start over) and 23 minutes on semi tired legs.

Big Mango,

Thanks. Critical Velocity (CV) is by Tinman definition about 10k pace. Daniels would call this Short Tempo, with Tempo (T) then about half marathon pace. These benchmarks would be for open runners. So adjustment necessary for each of us. I like mixing them in alternate weeks, using 600-800m for CV with 1:00 rest, and 800-5k with 2:00 rest when repeating. Typically 2-3 miles volume per session.

Igy

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

In my coaching and personal experience dramatically reducing volume was the biggest taper mistake. Can lead to weight gain and feeling sluggish.

Correct. If you are going to be racing a distance that relies heavily on your aerobic energy system, why would you de-emphasize that system during taper? Continue running mileage and cut elsewhere. You want to dance with the one who bring ya.

CV is at about 10K pace if you are a 29-32 min 10K runner. By definition it's about the pace you can hold for 30 minutes (so a parallel to the rule of thumb for threshold, that being 60 minute pace). So for the past several years I have been doing workouts at about my 8K pace. Sometimes bringing it down to 5K or 3K on the latter reps, especially if I have some shorter races coming up. Reps of 2-5 mintues, Take a 1/3 (by time) recovery on those. Do about 20-25 minutes worth of work.

Coach X wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

In my coaching and personal experience dramatically reducing volume was the biggest taper mistake. Can lead to weight gain and feeling sluggish.

Correct. If you are going to be racing a distance that relies heavily on your aerobic energy system, why would you de-emphasize that system during taper? Continue running mileage and cut elsewhere. You want to dance with the one who bring ya.

The other point I think is detrimental, being too competitive in training. Getting a little too much anaerobic lactate. Takes the edge off, rather than giving you an edge.

I am not a coach and even never had one. Rather somewhat close to Newbi regarding self-destruction (sometimes happen). So below are just my thoughts.

IMHO tampering is, to a large extent, an individual “thing”. It depends on many factors. The first two that come to my mind are the detraining curve vs time and weight gaining. Of course, the target race distance matters a lot as well as rank/importance of the race, but these are rather universal and not individual aspects.

E.g., I consider my detraining curve to be rather shallow (maybe erroneously), so that even a whole lazy week will bring no harm, provided I do not gain extra kilos/pounds and worked well before that. As for the kilos, now at 63 they come much easier than at 25, so I have to take a special care to keep my mouth “wide shut” on these days.

Also, being a 5-12 km runner only, I do not vary the length of the tampering period. Usually do the last hard workout a week before the race, then on the race week try to do a reduced interval or tempo on Tue., and then introduce an extra rest day on Thu or Fri (depending whether the race is on Sat or Sun) and have easy runs on the other days. Pretty standard, I think. Mileage reduction is not huge (perhaps 70-75% of the average), but my average is already quite low (35 mpw).

As for the percentage of the hard miles, I try to keep them about 8-10% of the total except for the winter season. And another 12-15% are of the LT and/or CV pace.

Tapering is often an individual thing and it also depends on whether you are fast or slow twitch.

If you are fast twitch you will probably benefit more from a taper while maintaining your speed work (or maybe add a bit of sharpening work). If you are slow twitch you might be better off keeping your mileage higher, without cutting back.

There is also a difference between a full taper and a cutback for a specific race. I have done some of my best racing while in the midst of a marathon block, where I cut back for two or three days but otherwise have a higher volume work. Full tapers have been somewhat of a mixed bag, and it just depends.

Here are weekly mileage summaries leading to WMAs a couple years ago, January through March

Jan. -50, 63, 65, 54 (USATF XC) (also XC skiing ~2X a week, about 2 hr per workout)

Feb. - 71, 68, 70, 67 (XC skiing 1X a week or 10 days)

Mar. 59, 53 (USATF 8K road), 44 (travel overseas), 43 (8K XC and 5 days later 1/2 marathon)

I felt flat for the USATF XC race in early Feb, but felt really good for the March championship races, three weekends in a row. It took two months to get my legs back after that.

Good points on the previous posts. I do believe that training, especially leaning aerobic, is like savings to a bank. It can be drawn longer than the athlete with a narrower base. The typical training pyramid if you wish to visualize it. Also, in the principles of training reversibility looms large. That is, gains take long building periods, and losses to fitness happen quickly. Therefore, arriving to the race healthy beats the alternative. Lastly, as you approach the big meet remember you have trained yourself to be a race car. Suddenly letting the gas get stale and driving like a grandpa is not reinforcing what you have spent months practicing.

Igy

BigMango - Most runners are very encouraging, A few have something to say, but generally it is disappointment with their own performance rather than a comment on mine. I am well known locally, having worked my way up through the ranks over the last ten years. At club training I'm just one of the slower men and nobody pays much attention. We have the wonders of parkrun here so I have the opportunity each week of a free timed 5k run along with several hundred others, many of them regulars. I have run over 200 of them and parkrun is very much a community where everyone supports each other. Mostly I just run in the pack, but sometimes I treat it as a fartlek and occasionally I go for a fast time. I don't go very often at present to avoid mingling with too many people. When I run in regional or national races my track running is often in age groups or against teenagers in open meetings and they pay no attention at all to the old guy in their midst. It is in road races where I most often come up against younger runners who very occasionally find it difficult to come to terms with running slower than someone rather older, but as I said they are just disappointed by their own performance. For me, it is not a matter of running against them, but only for myself.

I am experimenting with tapering this week in readiness for my first HM in two years next Sunday. So last Sunday I (foolishly?) ran the distance just to prove I could do it. Now I have 6 days following a plan under which I decrease progressively from 5x400m (Monday) through to a single 400m (Friday) and then a rest day before the HM. It will be interesting to find out what happens. This is not an important race for me, more of an end-of-season fling, but I need to run it to get a good-for-age time for a HM I might want to run next year. I find it rather embarrassing though that an M70 GfA time is 2hours and I will be aiming for somthing close to 1:30.

ATP, I think 1:30 equats to your 10k fitness, perhaps even 1:28 if you have a good race. Good luck.

Thanks Newbie for the advice.

I am absolutely not FT (fast twitch) even though I high hurdled in high school - that was more of technique thing; three stepping the 110 highs on cinder and scoring points in dual meets.

What I have going for me (I think) is simple durability, the ability to listen to what my body is telling me in training, and maybe some luck.

I have a 29 year and counting at least a three mile a day streak going and very very rarely have had injury issues. When I have, it has been due to not following my own advice and trying to push through when I know better.

I do understand training like I do I am basically playing Russian Roulette. But I will try it for a few weeks at least up to the state USATF XC race in early November and then reassess.

N of 1 worth saying

For no good reason last fall I decided to try:

-cutting my mileage 50 minutes per day to 30

-increasing my daily pace/effort apx 8-10 min miles down to 7-8 min miles with some fartlek at 6

-running trails instead of sand

For the first month or so I felt great and thought I was getting fitter.

After 2 months I ran a mile TT on old wavy track working pretty hard 5:56 WTF!? did not feel good. I started getting edgy little things would annoy me Then.....

Almost out of the blue both my knees started hurting really bad I could not even walk without pain. I actually quit running for 2 months treated it like runners knee / patellar tendonitis then went back to jogging in the sand. It took MONTHS before I was totally painfree zero knee pain for 3 months but man was that a cold bucket of water.

I guess I could have just said if it ain't broke don't fix it.

First peat then repeat did this need for speed f the base many times always same result. It is alot like these 8 weeks to a faster 5k based upon studies that last 8 weeks kinda folds into our peaking discussion.

So my training for the last 5 years has been focused on exercising for 3 hours every day almost all of it easy . Except for a few all I need is speed episodes I have stuck to it pretty well. The one addition that works is adding hard 30 seconds efforts with full recovery to activate max warp drive like 4x30 with 5 minute rests on the bike up a sand dune even on the track but not too often. I am book ending easy/super hard with minimal middle effort stuff you know the bread and butter of every traditional training program. Maxmize your endurance and speed then as you approach your goal race add the middle stuff . I have used this 2 times in the last 18 months a 2:28 800 and a 5:38 mile both are scratch PRs since turning 60 and I am 65.

We are all running the same ultimate ultra with no finish line

https://youtu.be/gtEUUIrPs8s