Fair enough, thanks for the detailed response and emphasis on consistency. I'm learning to stay at 35-40 mpw for now and let my body get used to that base mileage.
That’s fine, and that may work really well for you. But in my own view of consistent training, I would say the answer is less rigidly “stay at 35-40 mpw for now” than just related to following broad principles of what to do and not to do.
But I suppose a lot depends on what time frame you mean by “for now,” as well as what your upcoming schedule is (I believe you have a spring goal race).
E.g., I think at one point you may have asked about whether you could skip base building and head right into workouts. That would be a no. And I think you’ve had a nice attitude toward your plan of using a workout as fitness tests, but it looks like you might’ve done 5 x 1600 fairly early in your inclusion of workouts. That looks like potentially high volume early for a workout, but I don’t know: maybe you prepped your body for it over the course of weeks. And anyway, that’s water under the bridge now.
...
I’ve mentioned more about mileage here because I was taken aback by your previous statement that you might need upwards of 80 mpw because you knew what 35-50 gets you. I suppose it’s possible that you had a really sensible view of that, but I feared that you would possibly push above 50 mpw way too soon. And I disagree strongly with the statement that you know what up to 50 mpw gets you. You had some decent results with similar mileage, but even when you got fit fast and did pretty well, you felt a little bit let down as a result of a few hitches in training and then poor pacing. And then over time, you had a series of long layoffs, sometimes through absolutely no fault of your own. And although you learned a lot along the way and made some improvements, I don’t think you have quite had the chance to follow best practices consistently in the course of bouncing back from any of those layoffs yet. And so you still haven’t had the chance to show up on the line ready to race according to the fitness you gained in training, then been able to see the results of that via a well-paced race. And you certainly haven’t been able to do that multiple cycles in a row. Doing that is what gives a runner insight into what a particular mileage range gets you.
And I expect you’re all prepped and set up to find out what good, consistent training gets you. Good luck.
Agreed.
Jecht's training goes well, he should continue, don't overdo it, consistency is key.
Better to run the workouts too easy than a little too hard. That's one of the fundamentals of this training method.
I’ve been poking around at intervals.icu (great tool - donate to it!) and have a few nitty gritty questions about how it reports data:
One: I’ve noticed that the same sessions (e.g. 9 min pace for 45 mins easy run) can have slightly different load scores (39,42). Why? While that might seem small, it’ll add up over the week if you go purely by these numbers.
Two: does historical data get restated when you update your zones, or no? It LOOKS like “no” but would love it if someone can validate.
thanks for this awesome thread. I’ve been at this in an informal way for the past few months and already seeing gains from the excellent structure proposed here.
I've had this when I've used Gradient Adjusted pace and use corrections. I think it defaults this to the Strava model. Ultimately, this is the GPS and altimeter messing up the data, I have found, within the watch. So I might run 9 per mile on the same route, but my crappy watch will decide that day I have done 300 feet elevation instead of 150, so my pace tss which is set to the GAP model will be slightly more.
Just wanted to thank everyone in this thread and obviously sirpoc who has clearly filled the thread with amazing information and whose progress is inspiring for us middle aged guys and gals!
I'm 52 and set my 5k pb this morning at my local, windy parkrun, basically following this thread since it kicked off on day 1. My previous pb was 17:55 back in 2007. Been running ever since, getting, unfortunately, slower. This method over 8-9 months has given me new consistency, new drive but most importantly has increased my training load and feeling fresher. All these years spent on the magic plans etc and who would have thought something so simple! 17:49 on the results sheet, couldn't be happier almost 2 decades on!
I'm 52 and set my 5k pb this morning at my local, windy parkrun, basically following this thread since it kicked off on day 1. My previous pb was 17:55 back in 2007. Been running ever since, getting, unfortunately, slower. This method over 8-9 months has given me new consistency, new drive but most importantly has increased my training load and feeling fresher. All these years spent on the magic plans etc and who would have thought something so simple! 17:49 on the results sheet, couldn't be happier almost 2 decades on!
Could you tell us what your schedule look like ? Times/distances/paces.
Could you tell us what your schedule look like ? Times/distances/paces.
Basically just copying sirpoc from Strava. Tuesday 3x3k, Thursday 5x1600 and Saturday 9x1k. That puts me around the same time as him sub threshold, be it slower paces and also around 7+ hours a week with the rest very easy. If you are going to do this, no point tweaking it in my opinion. KI are sirpoc are both independent of each other and show it works. Also enough guys have come on here following it very close to laid out with huge success. I'm just so thankful I went in on this. To be honest, I was very skeptical but it pays off. But you need to be in it for the long haul.
Thank you! I'm not sure why I was downvoted but you can't make everyone happy, I guess. I am trying to get it so they are eventually all within a few seconds of each other. The first one is always slow for me. Even though I warm up with active stretches and 1-2 miles of jogging.
Do you do some strides? I think 1600s at a comfortable pace like this should not be too hard to hit the threshold speed or within 5 secs/mile. Everyone is different but better to go slow than too fast. So I wouldn’t say it’s a big deal that this is how it goes for you.
I need to get better at doing strides at the end of my EZ days. That's a good point TL!
This post was edited 44 seconds after it was posted.
Fair enough, thanks for the detailed response and emphasis on consistency. I'm learning to stay at 35-40 mpw for now and let my body get used to that base mileage.
That’s fine, and that may work really well for you. But in my own view of consistent training, I would say the answer is less rigidly “stay at 35-40 mpw for now” than just related to following broad principles of what to do and not to do.
But I suppose a lot depends on what time frame you mean by “for now,” as well as what your upcoming schedule is (I believe you have a spring goal race).
E.g., I think at one point you may have asked about whether you could skip base building and head right into workouts. That would be a no. And I think you’ve had a nice attitude toward your plan of using a workout as fitness tests, but it looks like you might’ve done 5 x 1600 fairly early in your inclusion of workouts. That looks like potentially high volume early for a workout, but I don’t know: maybe you prepped your body for it over the course of weeks. And anyway, that’s water under the bridge now.
And maybe settling in on mileage right now is fine. Or you could probably go with small incremental increases for a couple of weeks, do a cutback, return and maintain for a few weeks; rinse and repeat. That would be a conservative way to build. (or look at Daniel’s percentages, or just follow a plan that builds that mileage for you, or whatever).
But there are lots of good options. The key is recognizing and avoiding less constructive options. And those less constructive ways usually follow the impulse of: ”must hit X goal in race Y weeks away” unless you really know for a fact that you’ve been building well toward that goal on that timeframe.
I’ve mentioned more about mileage here because I was taken aback by your previous statement that you might need upwards of 80 mpw because you knew what 35-50 gets you. I suppose it’s possible that you had a really sensible view of that, but I feared that you would possibly push above 50 mpw way too soon. And I disagree strongly with the statement that you know what up to 50 mpw gets you. You had some decent results with similar mileage, but even when you got fit fast and did pretty well, you felt a little bit let down as a result of a few hitches in training and then poor pacing. And then over time, you had a series of long layoffs, sometimes through absolutely no fault of your own. And although you learned a lot along the way and made some improvements, I don’t think you have quite had the chance to follow best practices consistently in the course of bouncing back from any of those layoffs yet. And so you still haven’t had the chance to show up on the line ready to race according to the fitness you gained in training, then been able to see the results of that via a well-paced race. And you certainly haven’t been able to do that multiple cycles in a row. Doing that is what gives a runner insight into what a particular mileage range gets you.
And I expect you’re all prepped and set up to find out what good, consistent training gets you. Good luck.
That bolded part is correct. I'm trying to stay steady and not make the beginner mistake of piling on mileage and getting hurt. 35-45 loosely for now, and then the cutbacks, as you said (traditional training best practice), every 4th week. Not really targeting specific mileage #s per week, but a range. Race is 4/27/24.
I had mistakenly said that I might need upwards of 80 mpw because I saw some local Cbus Strava runners hit steady averages of 65 to 80 and succeed at Chicago/Cbus and other races in order to break 3:20 or even more. I was obviously wrong in my statement. :)
I'd love to do Chicago someday. One woman I know ran 3:05 and another one ran 3:19:55--in both cases, these Chicago runners had perfect, evenly paced races in 2022 and 2023, respectively. And some men I knew were even faster, in the 2:50-3:00 range, on that course. Then again, some of those runners may have built to those times over many years and consistently were 60-65+ mpw, and I have to tell myself that...
I ran 3:25 but at least peaked at 60 mpw last year, averaging 42-45, and felt much improvement from the 4:03 a year before. No complaints! Getting back into the 3:20-3:30 bracket was a huge win for me.
Nothing is promised--I just want to give myself more chances to see what I can do if I stay healthy. And even if I never break 3:20:01 it'll be a lesson to tell my kids that nothing is promised and to seize the moment when you see it, run smart, and don't make stupid mistakes like I did when training.
Doing cross-training, Irish dancing, and taking stretching even more seriously helps (i.e. doing active stretching).
Respect your take (no sarcasm)!
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Could you tell us what your schedule look like ? Times/distances/paces.
Basically just copying sirpoc from Strava. Tuesday 3x3k, Thursday 5x1600 and Saturday 9x1k. That puts me around the same time as him sub threshold, be it slower paces and also around 7+ hours a week with the rest very easy. If you are going to do this, no point tweaking it in my opinion. KI are sirpoc are both independent of each other and show it works. Also enough guys have come on here following it very close to laid out with huge success. I'm just so thankful I went in on this. To be honest, I was very skeptical but it pays off. But you need to be in it for the long haul.
Basically just copying sirpoc from Strava. Tuesday 3x3k, Thursday 5x1600 and Saturday 9x1k. That puts me around the same time as him sub threshold, be it slower paces and also around 7+ hours a week with the rest very easy. If you are going to do this, no point tweaking it in my opinion. KI are sirpoc are both independent of each other and show it works. Also enough guys have come on here following it very close to laid out with huge success. I'm just so thankful I went in on this. To be honest, I was very skeptical but it pays off. But you need to be in it for the long haul.
What other workouts are done other than what you have listed? When does one factor in speed sessions? Is this for a particular block? I'm guessing the race phase for sirpoc looks very different. Thanks in advance.
Does the race phase look different for sirpoc as it does for Jakob? Does sirpoc include anything similar to the once a week 2 x (10 x 200m) hill reps around 5K pace/effort that Jakob does in the base phase?
Does the race phase look different for sirpoc as it does for Jakob? Does sirpoc include anything similar to the once a week 2 x (10 x 200m) hill reps around 5K pace/effort that Jakob does in the base phase?
Nope. There anren’t any phases. Sirpoc does the same thing every week. 3 x 3200, 6 x 1600, 10 x 1k. 90 minute long run. 60 minutes every easy day.
Nope. There anren’t any phases. Sirpoc does the same thing every week. 3 x 3200, 6 x 1600, 10 x 1k. 90 minute long run. 60 minutes every easy day.
LOL. Yet people follow this garbage thread. What nonsense and we are to believe a 15 has been run off this. Just another make belief LRC thread. You guys do yourselves a favour and find out what ACTUAL masters 15 runners are doing. Not this pure garbage for attention.
Nope. There anren’t any phases. Sirpoc does the same thing every week. 3 x 3200, 6 x 1600, 10 x 1k. 90 minute long run. 60 minutes every easy day.
LOL. Yet people follow this garbage thread. What nonsense and we are to believe a 15 has been run off this. Just another make belief LRC thread. You guys do yourselves a favour and find out what ACTUAL masters 15 runners are doing. Not this pure garbage for attention.
You could go look at his strava to see what he is doing. There are pro and cons to all training approaches. A lot of master follow Daniels training some follow other approaches and keep doing high mileage.
what do you do as a master athlete, willing to share your training and times?
Does the race phase look different for sirpoc as it does for Jakob? Does sirpoc include anything similar to the once a week 2 x (10 x 200m) hill reps around 5K pace/effort that Jakob does in the base phase?
Nope. There anren’t any phases. Sirpoc does the same thing every week. 3 x 3200, 6 x 1600, 10 x 1k. 90 minute long run. 60 minutes every easy day.
What are his rests? I can't really tell. I think it was 2m rest between each rep within all the sets (3x3200, 6x1600, 10x1000) but I can't remember.
You could go look at his strava to see what he is doing. There are pro and cons to all training approaches. A lot of master follow Daniels training some follow other approaches and keep doing high mileage.
what do you do as a master athlete, willing to share your training and times?
Strava is assuming GPS is accurate but it is obviously not. Not only that, digital epo doping is a huge thing in running and cycling , with websites dedicated to making runs look or appear faster than they are. I suspect this is what is probably happening here. My two cents, if you aren't following Daniel's you likely aren't training to an effective level. There is a reason why his methods are considered the gold standard, they work.
For reference I started following the thread in December 2023. I loosely followed what sirpoc was doing, but wanted to implement double thresholds, because I have more time and wanted to try to take it as far as possible.
What does it consist of? Well I do 5 x 6 minutes in the morning and 10 x 3 minutes in the afternoon on the treadmill consistently every Tuesday and Thursday, all off of 60 seconds standing. Monday is easy, Wednesday easy, Friday easy, Saturday some faster hill stuff and Sunday easy long. I scrapped the 400m repeats early on, because I just felt that I wasn't getting much threshold benefit from them due to how short the reps were, and also it just felt strange doing them on the treadmill.
I haven't invested in lactic readings due to the price, but instead used Max HR and LTHR to chart these paces originally. So for reference my max HR is quite high at around 210-211, the idea is to keep everything under 190 HR at the very highest which is around LTHR (might be closer to 192-193 but I'm keeping it on the safe side). I'm taking mean readings from the last 2 minutes of every rep and aiming to keep that average per session around 172-175 for these readings. If my HR is lower than 172 consistently over a few sessions then I know its time to up the pace, if its higher than 175 then it's mostly just due to gym temperature, or bad days, but I know that I need to back off.
So from December -> March I started with doing the 5 x 6 minutes @ 3:43/km at 175HR, and 10 x 3 minutes @ 3:35/km around 175 HR too. For the first 3 weeks my HR was pretty consistent at this. Then gradually lower in the 4th week and 5th week (169-171 HR), so I upped the paces of both by .1 on the treadmill. After the first month, I started seeing pretty clear increase in fitness every single week. I wouldn't up the pace every week, but it was basically every 2nd week that I was in the position to increase pace by 0.1 on the treadmill. I haven't missed a single Tuesday or Thursday session (other than 1 week which was a down week) since I started, now my paces are 3:33/km for the 6 minutes, and 3:23/km for the 3 minutes around 172-174 HR currently. I keep all of these things documented quite rigorously on spreadsheets too. For reference it comes out to around 130-140km a week, and this is very easy to sustain for me because I am not really doing anything at a high intensity, other than the hill reps which are very low duration (usually 25 seconds). I don't really feel any fatigue build up from this and can fit everything in 50 minute sessions, other than the long run. Not had any injuries either, treadmill is very forgiving. All of my easy runs are done between 5:00/km and 4:35/km. Sometimes do long runs slightly quicker but still very much aerobic (4:20/km - 4:40/km).
I haven't been running for a particularly long time either, was in 40 min 10k shape in November 2022. Since December 2023, I've gone from 16:40 -> 15:40 5k shape late March 2024. 20 Y-O. Didn't run in school or at all earlier in childhood. Not ran a 10k but assuming it would be somewhere between 3:16-3:19/km just from feel.
I'm not saying that this method is flawless, and it is definitely not as scientific as lactic usage. But I'm pretty confident I will be in under 15 shape by the end of the year from this, and don't really know where after that.
Nope. There anren’t any phases. Sirpoc does the same thing every week. 3 x 3200, 6 x 1600, 10 x 1k. 90 minute long run. 60 minutes every easy day.
What are his rests? I can't really tell. I think it was 2m rest between each rep within all the sets (3x3200, 6x1600, 10x1000) but I can't remember.
From post #30 on page 2:
The rest of the sessions are anything from 25x400 to 3x3k. 25x400 is probably around 98-99% of Tinman's CV. 10x1k is around 12-15k pace. 5x2k is around HM pace. 6x1600 right around 10 mile pace.
I run everyday, so it's 3x easy, 1x long at the higher end of the easy boundary and 3x of the above sessions. The only fast stuff I do is are the parkruns. I've gradually improved after a huge stagnation last year and the summer before. Keep chipping time off my 5k pb each month and have for about the last 9 months now. It was around the same for ages. It's not a quick fix, but over time if you stick to it I think most people will improve and I also have felt fresher than I ever have. Also less niggles, I equate that to not doing the really hard and past paces anymore.
I try to stick to that to be honest. It keeps it simple and mixes up what the body is running at. The key to this though, is all short rest. 60 seconds for everything but the 400s at 30.
You could go look at his strava to see what he is doing. There are pro and cons to all training approaches. A lot of master follow Daniels training some follow other approaches and keep doing high mileage.
what do you do as a master athlete, willing to share your training and times?
Strava is assuming GPS is accurate but it is obviously not. Not only that, digital epo doping is a huge thing in running and cycling , with websites dedicated to making runs look or appear faster than they are. I suspect this is what is probably happening here. My two cents, if you aren't following Daniel's you likely aren't training to an effective level. There is a reason why his methods are considered the gold standard, they work.
You could go look at his strava to see what he is doing. There are pro and cons to all training approaches. A lot of master follow Daniels training some follow other approaches and keep doing high mileage.
what do you do as a master athlete, willing to share your training and times?
Strava is assuming GPS is accurate but it is obviously not. Not only that, digital epo doping is a huge thing in running and cycling , with websites dedicated to making runs look or appear faster than they are. I suspect this is what is probably happening here. My two cents, if you aren't following Daniel's you likely aren't training to an effective level. There is a reason why his methods are considered the gold standard, they work.
He's not cheating. I follow sirpoc and his times ARE legit throughout; they line up proportionally. TY for the info. Tinman's calculator is useful:
22:14 5k on 2/5/24 (I'm aware it's slow AF).
25x400 at CV (1:48-1:51, or 7:17-7:27/mi) w/30s rest 10x1k at 12-15k (4:41-4:45, or 7:32-7:39/mi) w/60s rest 6x1600 at 10M (7:35, or 7:41/mi) w/60s rest 5x2k at HM (9:44, or 7:50/mi) w/60s rest
30s rest for 25x400 60s rest for all else
Using 25% rule, 11-12 miles of sub-thresh per week requires 48-50 mpw overall, the remainder being EZ or LR
EZ runs at 70% of MHR (140-145-ish?) 10:06-10:28, maybe faster as you get fit but stay under 145
Retest after 8 weeks with new data (5k or other race), and re-adjust paces...
This post was edited 14 minutes after it was posted.