This thread was deleted by a volunteer moderator. I certainly don't want a thread this big deleted so I've restored. THat being said, this thread has served it's purpose. I've closed it to new posts.
We have a new 2024 vaccine thread here. New people don't need to try to wade through 20,000 posts to figure out what is going on.
None of this meets preponderance of evidence, there is not a single piece of positive evidence toward the lab-leak argument. All you've done is try and discredit a few of the many pieces of evidence arguing toward zoonosis. E.g. raccoon dogs which are not the only possible vector. And, the tests on raccoon dogs were 1) small scale 2) after the outbreak 3) only looking for active virus. None of these are particularly devastating to the theory. Plus, you've done some pretty elaborate chain-of-reasoning about how various nations would theoretically respond given hypotheticals.
What's missing is actual evidence for the lab leak.
I would ask you, as an exercise, cast the same level of skepticism on the lab-leak theories you push. You argue that China could easily push blame for a lab leak onto the US if it surfaced. Well, why don't they just fabricate it then and blame the US? If this was really what they would do, why haven't they just made it up? I think that calls into question your whole line of reasoning here just a bit.
Actually, my reasoning is extremely logical and pretty straight line. A lab that is known to be doing gain of function research and known to be doing that research on bat viruses and known to have viruses closest to any identified in the wild as being next to SARS Cov-2 and known to have documented safety issues allows a virus to escape. This is so incredibly likely that it's almost not a matter of IF this would happen but when it would happen and maybe even how often it would have happened in the past.
I've already explained how easy it would be for the virus to surface at a wet market instead of at the lab itself. It would be very unlikely for an infected person to spread it to other people in the lab because when they're in the lab they're wearing safety equipment masks and even pressurized suits. On the other hand, when that infected person travel to the Wuhan wet Market it would be very easy to spread the virus by touching something because wet markets are notorious as being breeding grounds for the spread of viral infections. They are damp, poorly ventilated, and poorly lighted, and have a high density of people. We now know that the virus can survive for an extended period of time outside of a human host under the right conditions and those conditions would exist and certain locations in a wet Market.
Next, we know that no similar furin cleavage sites exist in animals and it would be extremely unlikely for such a sight to develop in an animal since it is not needed for animal to animal transmission and there has not been a single animal in the entire planet to have been proven to have this virus in 2019. Not a single animal. Not a single animal on a farm providing animals to the wet Market. No signs of any virus residue in any farms that raised animals that appeared in this market.
Next, when you apply the Occam's razor test, it points to lab leak. When you apply the follow the money test, it strongly points to a lab leak. On the other hand the zoonosis theory basically is the equivalent of scientists shrugging their shoulders and saying well it happens and it's happened at wet markets before so that's what happened here while simultaneously ignoring literally dozens of smoking guns that point to the lab leak by saying they are merely coincidences.
I could believe one coincidence or even two or three, but to believe the Zoonosis Theory for the emergence of covid-19 you would have to ignore literally dozens of unlikely events as being merely coincidences.
When I read the summaries of the root claim debate over the origins of covid-19, I did not see a single compelling argument that would swing me over to the zoonosis theory. Peter was brilliant, however. He presented some statistics as facts when they were actually mere speculations. At other times he simply ignored rootclaim arguments and misdirected rootclaim and the judges to a different point. I see how it could be easy to miss in real time in a verbal debate, but when reading the text it was pretty obvious that it was a brilliant step to just move past a point he could not defend and get both root claim and the judges thinking about something else.
Your first paragraph could easily be applied to the zoonosis theory: we know exotic animal markets are common vectors for zoonotic spillover. The wet market in Wuhan is an excellent example of the dangers of these markets. This is so incredibly likely it was only a matter of when, not if, we saw something emerge from there.
We've already talked about how the furin cleavage site is so random, inefficient, and simply wrong that Occam's razor suggests it is natural in origin. It looks far more likely like a weird evolutionary result than a artifact of human design. (Claiming this was intentional requires many extra layers of evidence and fails the Occam's razor test)
We've already talked about how the case spread from the wet markets is more consistent with low level incubation rather than an infected person visiting and setting off a super spreader event. For this to work with your theory, it would have required an infected person visiting multiple times over multiple days, but somehow not triggering a super spreader event, but also passing on just enough virus to cause some transmission. Does that pass Occam's razor.
You just claimed last post that China has an incentive to claim a lab leak because they could just blame the US for funding it ('follow the money'). Why have they not done that? I suspect it's because your analysis of the actors' motivations is not accurate and thus not really suitable as evidence in this debate.
Your burden of proof for the Zoonosis theory seems to be a refutation of the lab leak theory. That is a far higher bar than you actually hold the lab leak theory to. You're not being fair, because I think you've already made up your mind. If you held your lab leak theories to the same level of evidence I don't think you would be as certainly.
No, my response is that I specifically diagnosed him with Long COVID after watching him play and, since then, he has yet to win a tournamet. Playing far below his previous levels.
That is a very concise, specific prediction that has help up.
You may disagree with my diagnosis, but you certainly can't disagree with the facts: he hasn't won.
What a joke. Proof by assertion is your only attempt to respond. You really should be disappointed in yourself that you can’t come up with a more reasonable defense.
You have failed to refute my assertion of long COVID for Chokervic – backed up by his much worse play recently (see: losing every tournament).
Your only attempt to argue has been to point to a lagging indicator, world rankings, that do not reflect his current poor form.
I'm merely repeating myself until you actually engage with my argument.
I haven't got much traction I've previously floated the argument Peter makes in Session 2 that WIV didn't have a close enough precursor to the Covid-19 strain to have synthesized the Covid-19. If it's accurate to state they needed some strain more similar to Covid-19 than they were known to have in their possession, that seems to be problematic for the lab leak hypothesis.
Even if WIV did try to create COVID, they couldn’t have. As Yuri said, COVID looks like BANAL-52 plus a furin cleavage site. But WIV didn’t have BANAL-52. It wasn’t discovered until after the COVID pandemic started, when scientists scoured the area for potential COVID relatives. WIV had a more distant COVID relative, RATG-13. But you can’t create COVID from RATG-13; they’re too different. You would need BANAL-52, or some as-yet-undiscovered extremely close relative. WIV had neither.
I haven't got much traction I've previously floated the argument Peter makes in Session 2 that WIV didn't have a close enough precursor to the Covid-19 strain to have synthesized the Covid-19. If it's accurate to state they needed some strain more similar to Covid-19 than they were known to have in their possession, that seems to be problematic for the lab leak hypothesis.
Even if WIV did try to create COVID, they couldn’t have. As Yuri said, COVID looks like BANAL-52 plus a furin cleavage site. But WIV didn’t have BANAL-52. It wasn’t discovered until after the COVID pandemic started, when scientists scoured the area for potential COVID relatives. WIV had a more distant COVID relative, RATG-13. But you can’t create COVID from RATG-13; they’re too different. You would need BANAL-52, or some as-yet-undiscovered extremely close relative. WIV had neither.
In my opinion these arguments are much stronger than the arguments against zoonosis. Good point
I leave about two months ago for my annual sail thru the Caribbean and Harambro is posting incessantly about Djoker.
I come back today and he is STILL posting incessantly about Djoker.
Djokovic really has him triggered - even years later. 🤦♂️ Sad.
It is sad. Pathetic really when you really think about it.
When every bit of his misinformation has been called out, all Harambro can do is go to Djoker. I LOVE it. It’s a sign of his desperation and defeat. And my ego grows every time he mentions Chokerovic. 👍
It is sad. Pathetic really when you really think about it.
When every bit of his misinformation has been called out, all Harambro can do is go to Djoker. I LOVE it. It’s a sign of his desperation and defeat. And my ego grows every time he mentions Chokerovic. 👍
Btw, did you know that Djokovic has lost 40 finals in major tournaments he’s been in in his career? And he’s not even made the final in more? It’s almost like he’s had “long Covid” since 2012. Who knew?
The rate of myocarditis in the last three years has skyrocketed as a direct result of the covid vaccine.
This is from a clinical cardiologist who treats thousands of patients. Keep that in mind when faceless, random propagandists on this board try to deny it.
The rate of myocarditis in the last three years has skyrocketed as a direct result of the covid vaccine.
This is from a clinical cardiologist who treats thousands of patients. Keep that in mind when faceless, random propagandists on this board try to deny it.
The level of denial is quite scary actually. I just met with one of my best friends the other day, a 52-year old very fit, former cyclist who now has a defibrillator inserted to mitigate v tach, along with two meds to control arrhythmias. He’s also on prednisone and methotrexate because he’s been diagnosed with heart inflammation and autoimmune sarcoidosis manifesting in his heart but nowhere else.
Instinctively, he doesn’t trust his doctors, but he’s also trying to convince himself he has Lyme carditis (despite traveling nowhere where Lyme is endemic or having a rash or any other symptoms) because he can’t accept that he did this to himself with the vaccines. He does admit that it’s possible, that he can’t understand how so many of his cycling friends are also now having cardiac issues, and that this came on as neck and ear pain after the 3rd shot, and he intuitively knew it was his heart.
But, hey, he’s just an anecdote and somebody’s friend’s sister’s cousin’s son according to Harambe and his data point or life doesn’t count. Can’t make this sh*t up. Of course he’s not in VAERS and never will be.
The rate of myocarditis in the last three years has skyrocketed as a direct result of the covid vaccine.
This is from a clinical cardiologist who treats thousands of patients. Keep that in mind when faceless, random propagandists on this board try to deny it.
Quick liberals, you need to censor this guy, revoke his license, and call him a "conspiracy theorist" before the truths he's telling get out to too many people!
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