Hearing a lot of reports of VAIDS coming through my circles
This thread was deleted by a volunteer moderator. I certainly don't want a thread this big deleted so I've restored. THat being said, this thread has served it's purpose. I've closed it to new posts.
We have a new 2024 vaccine thread here. New people don't need to try to wade through 20,000 posts to figure out what is going on.
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Harambe wrote:
Conservative Right-Winger wrote:
You're full of it - here's some rural white hick power in your face:
Kid Rock is vaccinated
That's what I've heard but I can't find a confirmation - do you have a link confirming such status? And are we talking just the initial two doses or the boosters and all?
I know my mentor Ted Nugent is definitely not vaxxed - and has natural immunity after surviving Delta last summer without needing hospitalization at age 72 💪But I'll admit I don't much about Kid Rock's vaccination status.
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Nugent got the vax too.
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I have connections in the music industry. He was vaxxed early and boosted but knows this line plays best with his audience. Like the Fox News folks.
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Harambe wrote:
I have connections in the music industry. He was vaxxed early and boosted but knows this line plays best with his audience. Like the Fox News folks.
Carminesque claim. How about a reliable link?
Thought so.20 -
WRG wrote:
Harambe wrote:
I have connections in the music industry. He was vaxxed early and boosted but knows this line plays best with his audience. Like the Fox News folks.
Carminesque claim. How about a reliable link?
Thought so.Please show me one example of any such claim I have made.
Don't believe the haters.
Read my actual comments
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Harambe wrote:
Heartless wrote:
Idiot- none of what you said is relevant. Your extreme example was stupid and pointless. It is common knowledge that the approximate “fully” vaxxed rate is somewhere around 65-70% in most states. That doesn’t need to be part of the discussion.
It doesn’t change the fact that there are an equal number of people being hospitalized and in the ICU for (“with”?) Covid. That’s a FACT, based purely on DATA. Simple counting.
I didn’t say “the hospitalization likelihood is exactly the same between the vaxxed and unvaxxed.” I said “the vaccine is clearly less effective than it was originally advertised, especially during the omicron phase.” That is a FACT. You were told if you got vaccinated you wouldn’t get Covid and you wouldn’t spread Covid. That was not true. It’s undeniable now.
Every Liberal I show that data to is shocked as hell at how many vaxxed and boosted folks are in the hospital. Why? Because their news outlets refuse to report the data.
No, you are falling for a base-rate fallacy and Simpson's paradox.
We've already been through this a year ago when people were saying the exact same thing as you with nationwide data from Israel and the UK. They were trumpeting raw numbers of hospitalizations as proof that the vaccine is not 90+% effective.
Well, it turns out that when you correct for base-rate and Simpson's effects in Israel/UK, it was still 90+% effective.
Nothing about the math has changed. You are just being misled by statistical paradoxes that have been discussed countless times on these boards. I have faith that you can read up on your errors and understand why your presentation of statistics is 1) wrong and 2) in bad faith.
I encourage you to not just wallow in innumeracy and ignorance and actually try to learn as opposed to just grabbing whatever numbers support your "vax bad" priors and then aggressively defending your terrible math.
Start here. Cheers.
LOL- So much twisting and turning to try to prove something that more and more people each day are realizing is total BS. Love it!
I’d guess you have a Bachelor of Arts iiiiinnnn English? Maybe Art History?
Anyway, today’s numbers from one of the largest hospital systems in MI:
Hospitalized: 42 Unvax / 51 Vax (26 Boosted!)
ICU: 2 Unvax / 3 Vax (1 Boosted)
Ventilator: 2 Unvax / 2 Vax
Read it. Accept it.
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In the past month, the vaccine debate finally hit home to me. Two of my friends, both high level runners in outstanding health, both around age 60, both vaxxed and I think boosted, have had sudden cardiac events. One died and one was hospitalized.
As a result, I'd like to revisit the following question from a non-confrontational perspective: "Are vaccinated athletes dying at a higher rate?"
The chart below shows athlete deaths and collapses (whatever that means) from Jan 2021 to mid-March 2022. Let's disregard "collapses" and look just at deaths.
1. The chart shows that athlete deaths increased dramatically in summer 2021... about the time the vaccine was made available, or in some cases, mandatory, for athletes. Jun-Aug showed a four-fold increase over the previous three-month period. The subsequent jump in Sep-Nov was even greater... an 8-fold increase.
2. Comparing deaths in the same months before and after the vaccines became available, the chart shows 8 deaths in Jan-Feb 2021 and 118 deaths in Jan-Feb 2022... roughly a 15x increase.
3. The chart shows roughly 360 deaths in 2021. An older study found 66 deaths/year in 2005-2006 so the increase is roughly 6x.
These differences are far too large to be random. Experts say, "There's no proof that these deaths are vaccine-related." Very true... so what is the cause? What else is different? More to the point, what caused the huge jump in deaths beginning in summer of 2021?
Occam's Razor points to the vaccine.
If this is anti-vaxx sensationalism, it would be very easy to disprove. I first saw this chart on athlete deaths back in December 2021. It's been four months. A news organization or pro-vaxx foundation could just appoint a couple of interns to screen worldwide news reports for athlete deaths in recent pre-Covid years... say, 2016 through 2019. Countering this anti-vaxx with data to prove there has been no increase would be very newsworthy. In fact, it would be international news with a lot of publicity for the research authors/organizations, but to my knowledge, this has not been done.
Or, perhaps it has been done, but not reported because the data supported the anti-vaxx position?
If it has been done, please post a link.
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Heartless wrote:
Harambe wrote:
No, you are falling for a base-rate fallacy and Simpson's paradox.
We've already been through this a year ago when people were saying the exact same thing as you with nationwide data from Israel and the UK. They were trumpeting raw numbers of hospitalizations as proof that the vaccine is not 90+% effective.
Well, it turns out that when you correct for base-rate and Simpson's effects in Israel/UK, it was still 90+% effective.
Nothing about the math has changed. You are just being misled by statistical paradoxes that have been discussed countless times on these boards. I have faith that you can read up on your errors and understand why your presentation of statistics is 1) wrong and 2) in bad faith.
I encourage you to not just wallow in innumeracy and ignorance and actually try to learn as opposed to just grabbing whatever numbers support your "vax bad" priors and then aggressively defending your terrible math.
Start here. Cheers.
LOL- So much twisting and turning to try to prove something that more and more people each day are realizing is total BS. Love it!
I’d guess you have a Bachelor of Arts iiiiinnnn English? Maybe Art History?
Anyway, today’s numbers from one of the largest hospital systems in MI:
Hospitalized: 42 Unvax / 51 Vax (26 Boosted!)
ICU: 2 Unvax / 3 Vax (1 Boosted)
Ventilator: 2 Unvax / 2 Vax
Read it. Accept it.
Hospitalized with Covid or because of Covid?
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fisky wrote:
As a result, I'd like to revisit the following question from a non-confrontational perspective: "Are vaccinated athletes dying at a higher rate?"
No time to dig into this now, but a citation for the article in question is here for anyone inclined to do so:
I will say that more often than not, anonymous parties posting "scientific studies" without clear data methods and expressed in a conspiratorial tone isn't a great way to establish credibility.
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#1852
This post was removed.
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Monkeys Skyping wrote:
fisky wrote:
As a result, I'd like to revisit the following question from a non-confrontational perspective: "Are vaccinated athletes dying at a higher rate?"
No time to dig into this now, but a citation for the article in question is here for anyone inclined to do so:
I will say that more often than not, anonymous parties posting "scientific studies" without clear data methods and expressed in a conspiratorial tone isn't a great way to establish credibility.
GOOD SCIENCING
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GOOD SCIENCING TELLS ME SOCCER PLAYER GO FLIPPY FLOP
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Harambe wrote:
Unfortunately Omicron infection alone does not stimulate a suitably broad immune memory to protect against future strains. Vaccination before/after stimulates additional breadth that is necessary for Omicron infection to actually give good "natural immunity" across strains.
Natural immunity is weak against variants without successive immune challenges. That means vaccination.
Therefore, unvaccinated persons who are infected with the omicron BA.1 variant only (without previous SARS-CoV-2 infection) might not be sufficiently protected against infection with a SARS-CoV-2 variant other than omicron BA.1; for full protection, vaccination is warranted.Simpson’s Paradox is definitely a thing and explains the seemingly alarming results. Vaccination is key in the elderly. BUT, two other things are also clear.
Vaccination status in <50 cohort doesn’t matter. The Israeli/UK data conflict on effectiveness for the <50 group, with one saying it helps, the other saying it hurts. As your explanatory link points out, this is because it’s hard to derive any meaningful conclusions when you are measuring outliers, because that’s what severe cases are when you are talking 50 / 5,000,000. Given spread of virus is not tempered much by vaccination, we don’t be needing to put that much effort convincing the 1/100,000 people who might be affected.
The choice of the word “still” 90% effective is peculiar, since that used to mean effective against infection, and now it means effective against death. It is effective against death in the elderly, but until Omicron hit, it was thought to be effective against cases in everyone.
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From the "Logically" web site:
"Goodsciencing, a website spreading COVID-19 vaccine misinformation, has compiled a list of athletes who it alleges suffered from severe health conditions and died after the COVID-19 vaccine rollout. The website also notes that the list compiled by them was the list of athletes that were vaccinated against COVID-19. This is not true in all cases. Several of these athletes were not vaccinated against COVID-19. Some of them have died due to other medical conditions unrelated to COVID-19 or the COVID-19 vaccines.
None of the reports covering the health issues or reports of the athletes' death have confirmed the cause of death to be from the adverse reactions of COVID-19 vaccines. Someof the information compiled in this list has been debunked as they were baseless and peddled by accounts spreading anti-vaxx narratives."10 -
spry senior wrote:
From the "Logically" web site:
"Goodsciencing, a website spreading COVID-19 vaccine misinformation, has compiled a list of athletes who it alleges suffered from severe health conditions and died after the COVID-19 vaccine rollout. The website also notes that the list compiled by them was the list of athletes that were vaccinated against COVID-19. This is not true in all cases. Several of these athletes were not vaccinated against COVID-19. Some of them have died due to other medical conditions unrelated to COVID-19 or the COVID-19 vaccines.
None of the reports covering the health issues or reports of the athletes' death have confirmed the cause of death to be from the adverse reactions of COVID-19 vaccines. Someof the information compiled in this list has been debunked as they were baseless and peddled by accounts spreading anti-vaxx narratives."And what is "Logically", who funds it, and what is the basis for their conclusions? Looks like a propaganda website. Note things like "some of the info compiled in the list has been debunked". That means some has not. Which items have been debunked and how? Which have not? Is the former smaller than the latter? And the use of the term "anti-vaxx" to smear the messenger so as to avoid what they are saying.
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spry senior wrote:
From the "Logically" web site:
Links people . . .
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fisky wrote:
In the past month, the vaccine debate finally hit home to me. Two of my friends, both high level runners in outstanding health, both around age 60, both vaxxed and I think boosted, have had sudden cardiac events. One died and one was hospitalized.
As a result, I'd like to revisit the following question from a non-confrontational perspective: "Are vaccinated athletes dying at a higher rate?"
The chart below shows athlete deaths and collapses (whatever that means) from Jan 2021 to mid-March 2022. Let's disregard "collapses" and look just at deaths.
1. The chart shows that athlete deaths increased dramatically in summer 2021... about the time the vaccine was made available, or in some cases, mandatory, for athletes. Jun-Aug showed a four-fold increase over the previous three-month period. The subsequent jump in Sep-Nov was even greater... an 8-fold increase.
2. Comparing deaths in the same months before and after the vaccines became available, the chart shows 8 deaths in Jan-Feb 2021 and 118 deaths in Jan-Feb 2022... roughly a 15x increase.
3. The chart shows roughly 360 deaths in 2021. An older study found 66 deaths/year in 2005-2006 so the increase is roughly 6x.
These differences are far too large to be random. Experts say, "There's no proof that these deaths are vaccine-related." Very true... so what is the cause? What else is different? More to the point, what caused the huge jump in deaths beginning in summer of 2021?
Occam's Razor points to the vaccine.
If this is anti-vaxx sensationalism, it would be very easy to disprove. I first saw this chart on athlete deaths back in December 2021. It's been four months. A news organization or pro-vaxx foundation could just appoint a couple of interns to screen worldwide news reports for athlete deaths in recent pre-Covid years... say, 2016 through 2019. Countering this anti-vaxx with data to prove there has been no increase would be very newsworthy. In fact, it would be international news with a lot of publicity for the research authors/organizations, but to my knowledge, this has not been done.
Or, perhaps it has been done, but not reported because the data supported the anti-vaxx position?
If it has been done, please post a link.
I don't know what affect the covid vaccine may or may not be having, but do you think that the increase in athlete collapses/deaths since 2020 could be due to more athletes competing? Lots of competitions were canceled in 2020, as well as some in 2021.
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Conclusions
Despite the CDC's stance that neurological side effects following COVID-19 mRNA vaccines are rare and often mild, we see rising concerns for those 40 years old and under who remain at low risk from infection. With so many younger people already infected with acquired immunity, change needs to occur within our health agencies to portray a realistic risk of infection vs. immunization as coronavirus boosters become the norm. This is of grave concern to those under forty years of age, especially our youth, and should be more publicly addressed. Given post-authorization reporting of cardiac issues as well as neurological ones, it is crucial to note these in pre-authorization trials. As we have very little knowledge of what are the long-term issues, we need to consider the question of when do we implement benefit vs. risk evaluation to avoid unnecessary harm? The CDC must be more attentive to all the adverse events encountered as a result of these vaccines in the younger population. This is particularly concerning, as illustrated by our cases over such a short time window after vaccination. It is difficult to imagine the future side effects for those under seventeen years of age now being required to vaccinate despite herd immunity and being at minimal risk. These pressures are based on CDC guidance. Physicians and parents should also be more active in weighing risks vs. benefits by mandating informed consent and choice instead of one-size-fits-all practices. Hopefully, more studies will help shape the medical ethics around experimental vaccines in the young in the very near future to prevent unnecessary harm.
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