Third Kenyan runner in 10 days fails doping test

El Keniano wrote:

Sorry, but just not fact. First, it's not 61 over the last 3 years but coming on 9 years now. And there are two gold medalists (Sumgong and Kiprop) and zero world record holders (not counting Bahrainis, however plastic). To date, we can name precisely 4 Kenyans, that would've been considered top tier, to have failed tests: Asbel Kiprop, Jemima Sumgong, Rita Jeptoo and Matthew Kisorio. Not good, but not as dire as you're making out.

Oh come on, those Bahrainis have never been to Bahrain.

Renato Canova wrote:

This doesn't mean you can't have a correct opinion that, for example, Eliud Kipchoge or Kenenisa Bekele or Moses Mosop or Wilson Kipsang ran 2:03 WITHOUT taking any drug.

Assuming both the thesis are correct, the question is : how much could run Kipchoge, Bekele, Mosop and Kipsang if they wanted to take EPO ?

2- Kipchoge, Bekele, Mosop and Kipsang couldn't be able to run in 2:03 without doping

How do we know they aren't doping?

We do since it doesn't work on top-tier runners living and training at altitude.

Not sure where this is coming from. I didn't say you insulted me. I don't support people calling you names, but often it looks like a re-action within your own game. I offer you the same challenge. When was the last time I insulted you? Care to share with me that names I used and the insulting verbiage? I think I said you did have a "weak mind" once a very long time ago. Generally I attack your postings and not you. I say things like "your facts are not facts" and "your conclusions are not supported by your links", and "your method is not valid", in the most emotionless Spock-like tone I can.

That's the whole thing -- EPO busts like Kalalei's says absolutely nothing about the "big dogs". When Christian Hesch got busted for EPO, did anyone jump to conclusions about the American "big dogs"?

Small Time Kenyans On The Sauce wrote:

Sand Dunes wrote:

I'm not buying it. A c-list Kenyan test positive for PEDs, but I'm supposed to believe that the best runners in Kenya are clean? I'm sorry, they are all dirty.

+1

If you have "third tier" Kenyan runners (as rekrunner defines Kalalei) dabbling in EPO, what does that say for the big dogs.

I still want the name of the 167th American marathoner. Could he be a hobby jogger that posts here?

I never published Manangoi's training, because I don't know how he trains. I'm not his coach, and he's not in Iten, where I can have continuous contacts with the coaches of their athletes.

So, I don't know who is the subject of your mistake.

I can confirm the athletes I coach don't use any supplement and any vitamin. Only the marathon runners use specific maltodextrine when go for fast long run in order to have more energetic support.

Your question is a nonsense.

How do we know ALL the athletes faster than the doped athletes are doped too, in spite they NEVER were positive in any doping control (and everybody of them had not less than 10 OOC controls every year, after 2010) ?

How do we know you are honest and not a thief ?

Renato Canova wrote:

I can confirm the athletes I coach don't use any supplement and any vitamin.

I'm not one of those posters wo critcize you for all your contributions to these subjects on this forum. Indeed, much of what you are writing sounds plausible to me (for sure I can't know how credible you are and I'm also not an expert in these subjects at all). But to me most sounds plausible.

I want to add that I highly appreciate your efforts here.

But with such a statement like here you just loose a lot of credibility I would say. How can you confirm they don't use any supplements and/or vitamins? You can't. You might be very close to them, OK. But for sure not the whole day. Not around year. With 99% safety I would do such a statement maybe for my brothers and maybe 5 friends more which know for a long time.

So Kalalei was reportedly #167 by end of 2017. In 2017, in America, I only counted 80 runners running 2:20 or better (the ARRS db doesn't go slower). Many of these are East African imports, like Abdi, Biwott, Kipchumba, etc. All time, #167 American is David Olds running 2:13:48, again, not filtering for foreign imports, like Abdi, Meb, and Khannouchi. Of these 167, by my rough count, 11 of them are East or North African imports. If we want to exclude these imports (just like excluding Chebet from Bahrain), then #167 would be Steve Taylor running 2:13:57. If we want to exclude other imports, like Barrios, or Salazar, or even Hellebuyck, the respective time drops even further.

El Keniano wrote:

El Keniano wrote:

No one wants to take me up on this?

Sorry about this. Kalalei was 167th in Kenya, not 161st. I want to know the No. 167 American marathoner.

rekrunner wrote:

So Kalalei was reportedly #167 by end of 2017.

In 2017, in America, I only counted 80 runners running 2:20 or better (the ARRS db doesn't go slower).

Many of these are East African imports, like Abdi, Biwott, Kipchumba, etc.

All time, #167 American is David Olds running 2:13:48, again, not filtering for foreign imports, like Abdi, Meb, and Khannouchi.

Of these 167, by my rough count, 11 of them are East or North African imports.

If we want to exclude these imports (just like excluding Chebet from Bahrain), then #167 would be Steve Taylor running 2:13:57.

If we want to exclude other imports, like Barrios, or Salazar, or even Hellebuyck, the respective time drops even further.

El Keniano wrote:

Sorry about this. Kalalei was 167th in Kenya, not 161st. I want to know the No. 167 American marathoner.

Thanks and wow! Speaks for itself, I suppose.

Correction: Of these 167, by my rough count, 12 of them are East or North African imports.

Why such a pretentious & bombastic attitude? So I mistakenly said you used the word "elite." But you know damn well what I meant, and what I was driving at. You said of Kalalei: "a third tier runner buying into the hype and hope and promise of EPO...." So, what is a "third tier" runner then? A sub-elite professional? A bottom level elite? Do you have certain time parameters that characterize a third tier runner?

Why would an athlete with WR potential be less inclined to use EPO than the lower tier athletes? I'm not saying all WR potential athletes are going to dope, but some might feel need to dope because of the pressure put on them to succeed at the highest level.

Define slower runners in that context? Slower as in the 2:07 (?) cutoff you used in the pre-90s top 5 average?

Renato Canova wrote:

in spite they NEVER were positive in any doping control (and everybody of them had not less than 10 OOC controls every year, after 2010) ?

This means nothing. We know at this point a sports federation can bury positives at will for the right price. Defeating the bio-passport is as simple as doing EPO at altitude. The vast majority of drugs tests are easily defeated urinalysis.

So, some Kenyans that make podiums are doping.

rekrunner wrote:

Correction: Of these 167, by my rough count, 12 of them are East or North African imports.

Which means almost nothing because the federation is rife with corruption. Positive? Not positive? The only people that know are the federation and that's secret because the sport's elite podiums are dirty.

I guess I'm getting tired that many of my posts are defending myself from things I did not say, or somtimes, pretty much the opposite of what I said. You accused me of a misconception that "all elites using EPO are potential WR holders". My statement was pretty much asserting exactly the opposite: non-potential WR holders (as opposed to potential WR holders) using EPO was one of the more common scenarios. What is the appropriate response to such a post? I don't know what you mean or what you are driving at or how answering your questions will lead to something relevant. Do you want to argue that Kalalei should be fourth or fifth tier or more? I don't see where you want to go here with this line of questioning. Do I have a specific time frame? No. Maybe: First tier: best of the best Second tier: best of the rest Third tier: wanna be among the best, but cannot be, even with dope If you want to say third tier is too generous, that's fine by me. Why do I think third tier runners are more likely to take EPO? If you have an athlete who is regularly winning, versus an athlete who is not, the one who is not is more likely to look to external aid and take bigger risks and try to win more. The exact cutoff of slow isn't so important, because I see it obeying a sliding scale law of diminishing return rather than some clear barrier. A slower runner for sure is a runner that doesn't even appear in an "all-time athletics" website search, where the cutoff for inclusion is 2:10:30 (approx. 3325 best performances).

El Keniano wrote:

Big Time Kenyans On The Sauce wrote:

El K....I'm surprised at you, you neglected to mention Ruth Jebet. When I saw her bust for EPO, I literally fell out of my chair. This is BIG..real BIG:

- Olympic Gold medalist.

- Former WR holder.

- Currently 2nd fastest SC all-time.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/44898747https://www.athleticsintegrity.org/disciplinary-process/provisional-suspensions-in-force

I hate that we have to claim Ruth Jebet when she gets busted but not when she was 'destroying the Kenyans'. If, say, a Paul Chelimo got busted, he would suddenly revert to Kenyaness and used as 'proof' of the rampant drug culture. No Ruth Jebet was running for and fully sponsored by Bahrain, had Bahraini coaches and doctors taking care of her. They, are responsible for her.

Cheesy post El K.

Doper Jebet is a true, blue Kenyan. She was born and raised in Kenya and even trains over there part of the year. She only went over to Bahrain for better accommodations, more dough and to get a scholarship for school. But now that she was popped for doping, Bahrain will wash their hands of her and have absolutely nothing to with her. Maybe she could hook up with Kiprop and they can hide out together serving their bans in some remote village. Lol.

Also, ask rekrunner where he categorizes (according to his EPO-footprint analysis) the Bahrain-Kenyans, Bahrain-Morrocans, Ethiopian-Spanairds, French-Algerians, and so forth.

I do that strictly when talking about performance, because of the high correlation of performance and ethnic heritage. For discussions of the causes of doping, I don't make any distinctions based on ethnic heritage. For performance, I would count Jebet as Kenyan, but for discussions about the reasons she doped, I would look at her individual circumstances.

Think This One Through wrote:

Also, ask rekrunner where he categorizes (according to his EPO-footprint analysis) the Bahrain-Kenyans, Bahrain-Morrocans, Ethiopian-Spanairds, French-Algerians, and so forth.

I don't see the connection with naming the 167th best American all time, while noting this includes at least 12 non-American imports, and allegedly corrupt federations allegedly burying doping positives.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Correction: Of these 167, by my rough count, 12 of them are East or North African imports.

Which means almost nothing because the federation is rife with corruption. Positive? Not positive? The only people that know are the federation and that's secret because the sport's elite podiums are dirty.