1500m WR is now 20 years old!

He became ill due to his toxoplasmosis blood transfusion related disease didn't he ;).

I was clearly being sarcastic about Rono. Running fast all season is not evidence of doping just like running the odd crazy race like Kiprop did is not evidence of doping. In themselves. You need far more evidence. Even El G lost form at the end of every season.

Coe producing two of the most ridiculous performances of all time just two nights apart isn't any more evidence of doping than Ngeny doing the same thing. That was my rebuttal to Deano.

Your points are useless, I actually agree with some of what Deano says and his rebuttal often makes sense, if not clouded by his personal admiration of certain athletes. I play devil's advocate sometimes to show when some posters contradict themselves.

I would wager it's fairly difficult/impossible to determine what I really think regarding doping from my posts.

I wonder if you think Chelimo or Korir are clean? Both reside in America.

Coevett wrote:

spade detector wrote:

Agreed with you guys. It is hard to place any credibility in anything he posts or claims people have said because he constantly lies about it (i.e. conflating "what about your children" to threatening physical harm to his hypothetical kids). He doesn't believe in intellectual integrity.

Yes, please stick to this username ('spade dectector'), because nips and titties really is quite rude you know. Apparently hordes of innocent children frequent these boards.

You got me banned but you didn't ban your ignorance.

Google "nips and tatties" and you see what it means. You said once that you are half Scottish so you should know.

Alternative spelling: "neeps and tatties".

You are like that bully in school who is so dumb that he must resort to beating the other kids up.

And yes, many under-18s frequent these boards. Ask the brojos.

ex-runner wrote:

Rono was the only man with EPO in 1978 of course, or he was using blood transfusions in rural Africa where there was an aids epidemic coming to the fore...

Rono lived in Oregon, US.

Aids was more of a 1980s crisis???

No this can't be right wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

Rono was the only man with EPO in 1978 of course, or he was using blood transfusions in rural Africa where there was an aids epidemic coming to the fore...

Rono lived in Oregon, US.

Aids was more of a 1980s crisis???

Yeah it's sarcasm. I forgot Americans don't really get sarcasm. Of course Rono wasn't doping. He still rattled off ridiculous race after ridiculous race. Whilst clean. Because it's possible.

And AIDS was definitely an epidemic by the 70s in Africa (not the States) but I did write 'coming to the fore'. Hence engaging in blood transfusions would not have been wise. Hence sarcasm. Hence joke.

I think El G's 2002 season was his craziest. I haven't got time to list them all in order, but if you go to the IAAF all time list and select 2002 and Morocco he obviously has all the top times.

Just to summarize it, in 2002 El G ran sub 3:30 seven times, and still had the energy to run four mile races at 3:50 or better.

Compare that with Seb Coe who over a DECADE between 1977 and 1987 ran only 8 1500m races faster than 3:35 and four Mile races quicker than 3:52.

Coevett wrote:

Just to summarize it, in 2002 El G ran sub 3:30 seven times, and still had the energy to run four mile races at 3:50 or better.

Compare that with Seb Coe who over a DECADE between 1977 and 1987 ran only 8 1500m races faster than 3:35 and four Mile races quicker than 3:52.

OK. So El Guerrouj was better than Sebastian Coe at 1500m/Mile.

Thanks for making that clear.

For me, Sebastian Coe's 1981 season definitely ist the "greatest" in middle distance (800m - 1 Mile) history.

His 1:41.73 was worth around 1:41.5 at least and still puts him as =3rd performer all-time.

His 2:12.18 still is the Nr. 2 performance all-time (just slightly bettered).

His 3:31.95 definitely was worth sub 3:30 (some - Deano uncluded I think - say sub 3:29).

His 3:47.33 was the World Record for 4 years.

In addition, he has set an 800m indoor WR and has won European - and World Cup races with unprecedented finishing speed.

When good old ventolin^-∞ pointed on the few super fast times of Coe, the usual consense under the Brits was that this was just because of the different racing scedule back in the day and/or some responsibility for the federation or something like this. Now it sounds like more fast races just were not possible? Come on. For sure Coe could have run more (super?) fast races in 1981 if this was his goal in any way.

What's also really little bit strange, that some posters seem to take for granted that the scedule that Coe could do (with or without doping) ist the ultimate limit for any other runner under the same conditions. It is not.

Sometimes it really sounds like: if someone does better than Coe (nobody has I would say), he must have used PEDs.

Coe's '81 season is unique in many ways, until today. If the sequence of super fast times by Ngeny and El Guerrouj almost two decades later on probably better tracks and very good pacemaking is more impressive, at least is questionable (if someone really ist interested, I could check - for example - Ngeny's '99 races if they always have had good PM).

Anyway, if the two Africans are suspect because their racing scedule just is "too good", than the same is true for Coe.

Here are El Guerrouj's races:

And - again - just for clarification (this should normaly not be necessary, but this is letsrun): I'm not and I never was anything like an El Guerrouj or Ngeny fan. And I really never "saw" Coe in any form as a "doper" (I would almost go as far as to say Coe CAN'T be a doper...). But I might be blinded here in some way, because Sebastian Coe definitely is one of THE big names in international sport from my childhood/youth, maybe alongside with Ingemar Stenmark, Björn Borg, John McEnroe, Martina Navratilova and (little bit later) Carl Lewis. But this "nostalgic" view for sure is stupid. Anyone who is so much more successful in something than the ordinary people, is much more likely to be a cheater than the not so successfull ones I think.

What I also really can't understand, why most posters here think 3:26 "clean" is not POSSIBLE. Come on. If someone has run 3:30 (or 3:29...) clean, than it's just impossible to run 4 (or 3..) seconds faster? Someone with much better talent, much better trained, perfect facilities from his birth on, absolutely perfect conditions and so on...? I totally disagree in this one.

Just because the Riemann hypothesis in mathematics couldn't be proved since 100 years doesn't mean it will never be proved. Just because no one has run 3:26 clean (for sure we don't know this) doesn't mean it can't be done. Humans are far from reaching any limit.

Nips and tatties wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Just to summarize it, in 2002 El G ran sub 3:30 seven times, and still had the energy to run four mile races at 3:50 or better.

Compare that with Seb Coe who over a DECADE between 1977 and 1987 ran only 8 1500m races faster than 3:35 and four Mile races quicker than 3:52.

OK. So El Guerrouj was better than Sebastian Coe at 1500m/Mile.

Thanks for making that clear.

Yeah perhaps he should remind us of El Gs 800m PB vs Coe's.

El G never managed 1:41 therefore Coe was doping to be better at the 800m? Would that be the alternative argument?

said88 wrote:

Anyway, if the two Africans are suspect because their racing scedule just is "too good", than the same is true for Coe.

Exactly my point. Coe's 1981 season is more impressive in my opinion than any of El Gs seasons. The range of fast times from the 800 to the mile in quick succession is more impressive than rattling off 3:30 1500m races for a man who can run 3:30 easily. He simply got into a rhythm. It would be like saying Bolt running under 9.90 every race is more impressive. It's not.

Nobody has got close to achieving what Coe did in that 1981 season. Also history has shown the difficulty in running 9 races in a championship setting in a few days across the 800/1500 like Coe has done and been successful. Only Makhloufi managed it since I believe.

Most think he's glowing.

ex-runner wrote:

So nobody tested positive because drug testing was poor. It's quite simple. It also was not illegal to use blood transfusions at the time when Coe set all his world records. So what would they test for?

I'm sure some people did get caught but many didn't, just like today. There definitely was not much in the way of out of season testing.

I never said it was easy to dope when I was running and I never said I doped.

'Drug testing was poor' is a subjective statement. It was certainly better in the 80's than the 70's, and much better than in the 60's. Drug testing is always evolving, so it is not surprising that there should be ever improving techniques and testing with each successive generation. No? I do not believe, as some try to claim, that drug taking in T&F was universally worse in the 80's. I think it was worse in certain areas, but we really can't determine who was taking peds in the 60's, when not only was there no testing for anything until 1968, but steroids were completely legal. Every single athlete that reached an Olympic final in the 60's could have been doping, but we'll never know. I could claim, in the same way you do for Coe, that what Ryun did in 67 was indicative of him being a doper! But with no anecdotal evidence, circumstantial evidence or confessions, I tend to believe he was just phenomenally talented. I am of course prepared to be persuaded otherwise, if anything emerges in the future. You, however, seem to take the opposite view with Coe, despite none of the above cited evidence, other than he ran some fast times (like Ryun) and had toxoplasmosis ( Ryun had mono).

You're correct, it was not illegal to blood dope when Coe set his WRs, but why single him out? Where is the evidence that any elite half miler or miler blood doped during this period? All we have is a confession from one Finnish 10k runner from the 70's, another 10 K Finnish runner (Vainio) testing positive for a steroid that was in his reinfused blood in 84, and the admission of a couple of Italian 10 k runners from the late 80's (backed up by comments from Canova, who worked with the Italian team at the time). So, we have athletes who were running 10000m from 2 countries. How does that cast doubt on all the leading 800 and 1500m men from the rest of the world? Is there evidence that a single elite miler from that era blood doped? No. Yet it fits a convenient narrative for some that because a handful of long distance runners blood doped, then Coe must have to run fast at a distance less than 1/10th as long.

In addition, Coe's fastest 1500m performance came in 1986, a year after blood doping was banned. Which event do you think would benefit the most from blood doping? 800 or 1500m?

And you do know that it was Coe's research with Moynihan (Sports Minister at the time) and the publication of their government white paper, that was instrumental in getting blood doping banned!? Why would someone who had achieved all his medals and records through blood doping, initiate the banning of such a practice before his career had finished? His work on the Sports Council also led to UKA introducing out of competition random testing for UK athletes, starting in 1986. So in one of his best seasons, 1986, Coe would have been tested OOC, and blood doping was banned, largely due to his research. It's a bit like the person who invented the gun, turning round a year later and getting them banned. Makes no sense at all.

I never claimed that you said you doped. I claimed that you said you never doped. And I have no reason to believe that this is not true. In other words, with no evidence to the contrary, I believe that you didn't dope.

Look, you are obviously entitled to your opinion, and you are clearly intelligent, so we'll just have to agree to differ on this one.

LOL. Where did I say I didn't like Coe's 1981 season!? For me it is probably the most impressive season of any athlete ever.

Not only did he set 4 outdoor and 1 indoor world records, he also was UK University Champion over 400m and AAA indoor champion over 3000m, and remained undefeated at all distance from 400m.

Of course Rono's 78 season was brilliant at the time, but he certainly over-raced, lost quite a few races he wouldn't have done had he raced more sparingly, and many of his times would not be that impressive in today's competition. I don't think it is comparable to Ngeny's 99 season for sustained fast times.

ex-runner wrote:

Rono was the only man with EPO in 1978 of course, or he was using blood transfusions in rural Africa where there was an aids epidemic coming to the fore...

I take it you're being sarcastic?

In case you're not, then I will remind you that EPO didn't exist in 1978 and I do not believe he had blood transfusions.

He means 'didn't like' as an example of a clean athlete having a very unbelievable season. Rono in 78 is another example.

And yes I was being sarcastic about Rono using EPO or blood transfusions.

ex-runner wrote:

He became ill due to his toxoplasmosis blood transfusion related disease didn't he ;).

No, in 1982 he was injured in the early part of the season (shin splints iirc) and then got glandular fever (mono) just before the Athens Europeans.

ex-runner wrote:

Coe producing two of the most ridiculous performances of all time just two nights apart isn't any more evidence of doping than Ngeny doing the same thing. That was my rebuttal to Deano.

When did Coe run 2 ridiculous performances 2 days apart? If you're talking about his 3:31 1500 and 2:12 1000m, then they were 4 days apart. Slight exaggeration there!

You claimed in a previous post that when runners are in peak form they run fast times every time. That simply isn't true. In the sprints, maybe, because there are no tactics and you have to run your fastest each time to win, but middle distance runners do not go in to each successive race with pacemakers primed to run faster than they did in their previous race. A miler cannot, without artificial assistance, run a pb in every race over 1500m in a season. It's simply not possible. The athletes who came closest to this competed in the EPO free for all era of the 90's and early '00's.

Middle distance running is very different to sprinting. You cannot be in WR shape in June and then maintain that very high peak for every week until September. During Championship years, athletes will train all winter and spring to be able to hit and sustain a peak for a week or just over. After that, there has to be a bit of a let up. Perhaps 2 weeks later they can reach a mini peak for another race or two, but that's it. Anyone attempting to maintain such a peak would break down with injury or illness, which is probably what happened to Coe on occasion.

1981 was a non championship year, and so Coe could aim to reach short term peaks a few times over the course of a season. In 1980 and 84, the peak was planned to be a week to 10 days at the time of a championship. Note that in both Olympic years, Coe managed one further quality race in Zurich a week or 2 later, and then picked up injuries.

With Ngeny in 99, we have 13 very fast races, dispersed over 3 months, with no more than 2 weeks between any of them, in a Championship year when he was racing against El G. Again, I reiterate, the 2 seasons were not comparable in terms of prolonged intensity.

Yes, good point. And the frequency of fast times diminished with age, which is exactly what you would expect from someone not doping.

Thanks for that Said88. I don't agree with all of it, but as normal, you make many salient points and remain true and honest with your opinions and comments.

I agree that Coe could have run some more super fast times in 81 if the environment and circumstance of the time (N.B Andy Norman had a lot of control as to who ran where and even the likes of Coe had to run a certain number of races in the UK in international matches)allowed, but I don't think he could have run 13 3:31 or faster 1500m races and run a major Championship 1500m in the same season!

With regards to running 3:26 clean, I agree that in theory there will be someone (perhaps there already has been, but I doubt it)who will eventually be capable of it. But put into context of the era and the rate of progression of WR times, I find it difficult to imagine that in the space of 12/13 years, the 1500m would improve by 3.5 secs, almost 1 sec per 400m. The likes of Coe, Cram and Aouita were close to the perfect running machines, and while I believe all 3 could have run 3:28, the sheer quantity of sub 3:30's (and apparent ease) produced by El G does raise a red flag in my mind. Taken in isolation, I might be prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, but as Komen was doing something similar in the 3k and Geb in the 5 and 10k, I have to question such amazing improvements in the progression of WRs from 1500 upwards during an era when an undetectable endurance drug was prevalent.

I had completely forgotten Ingemar Stenmark! Thanks for mentioning him. I used to love watching skiing in that period; Franz Klammer was another hero of mine. I was also a Borg man, so we must be of a similar age. Lol.

ex-runner wrote:

said88 wrote:

Anyway, if the two Africans are suspect because their racing scedule just is "too good", than the same is true for Coe.

Exactly my point. Coe's 1981 season is more impressive in my opinion than any of El Gs seasons. The range of fast times from the 800 to the mile in quick succession is more impressive than rattling off 3:30 1500m races for a man who can run 3:30 easily. He simply got into a rhythm. It would be like saying Bolt running under 9.90 every race is more impressive. It's not.

Nobody has got close to achieving what Coe did in that 1981 season. Also history has shown the difficulty in running 9 races in a championship setting in a few days across the 800/1500 like Coe has done and been successful. Only Makhloufi managed it since I believe.

Most think he's glowing.

If you're going to be critical of Coe, then please, at least get the facts right. He ran 7 races in 9 days, not 9 races. And this is not the same as running a dozen fast times over an entire season. Championship running is as much about tactics and psychology in navigating through the rounds. Yes its's about quick recovery too, but not all the heats are run at or near WR pace.

And while I agree that Coe's 81 season was sublime, his fast races were not in quick succession. There was 4 weeks between his 800 WR and his near miss at 1500m/1000m WR, and another 6 weeks between those and his two 1 mile WRs. Ngeny ran fast times at 1000, 1500, mile and 2000m on average, every week for 3 months.

And please note the look on Coe's face at the end of his 800, 1500 and 1000 fast times! He was clearly leaving it all on the track.

4 days would be two nights apart. He raced on two of the nights and there were 2 nights between.

I know the difficulty in maintaining a peak. I know of peaking twice (hence I've talked about Cheryuiot taking a mid season break from racing).

El G's peak was not from June until September, that's a vast exaggeration. He showed a normal seasons progression in 1998, the only difference is the times were super fast. Generally, he peaked for about two to four weeks where he'd run his fastest times if it wasn't a championship year. For El G 3:31 was not a difficult run and did not constitute a peak run. Much like 1:43 was easy for Rudisha.

Look at 1998 here under 'results'

I'm certainly not convinced that El G was clean at all, but exaggerations such as 'he ran 3:26 every time like a machine' are totally wrong. His seasons progressed, peaked and dropped off in an ordinary fashion. It was just all way faster than anyone else could manage. Like Bolt or Rudisha. Coe ran races tactically often, but Rudisha and El G did not.

If Coe focused on the 800m alone I have no doubt he could rattle off 1:42s several times in a season.

Deanouk wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

Coe ran a 1500m in 3:31.9 just outside the existing world record with what I think was a 1:46 opening 800m, the likes of which have never been seen since, ever. Most would keel over and die going through 800m that fast, not run 3:31.

No, he went through 800m in 1:49.1, not 1:46. So again, the rest of your point doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

BTW, Ramzi (52.3, 1:49.2) went through 400 and 800 in similar splits to Coe (52.4, 1:49.1) in Rome in 2006, and finished in 3:29.14, which is 2.8 secs faster than Coe. Komen too, went through in 52.5 and 1:49.6, and finished in 3:29.02.

So if Coe's run indicates doping, what does it tell us about Ramzi and Komen, who managed to hang on to a suicidal pace more successfully?

My take is this:

1) I'm just looking at flat out PBs; Full throttle Ramzi did, in fact, PB at 3:29.14, but only about half a second faster than Coe's PB of 3:29.77 - really not that much. It's even closer with another Moroccan full throttle doper in Laâlou, who ran 3:29.53 (at Magic Monoco). So, Coe runs within tenths of seconds of 2 confirmed full throttle dopers from Morroco.

#2) I find it strange that in all the years of mid-d running in a country as large & resourceful as the U.S., not one runner has broken 3:30 barrier since Maree way back in 1985! Not one mind you! Neither Olympic Champ Centro at 3:30.40 (set at Monoco!) nor Super Stud Webb, who is even slower at 3:30.54.

Now, one would think with the American talent in mid-d running over the last few decades, the resources available, top coaches, 21st century sports nutrition & supplementation, etc., we would have at least one runner go sub-3:30 since Maree some 33 years ago! And yet not one. However, two Brits & an American easily go under 3:30 back in the 80s.

I don't have a dog in this fight so I don't really care either way, but this, IMO, looks suspicious with those dudes in the 80s easily running sub-3:30 and not one American able to do it in the 21st Century.