The official HEPS track and field thread, 2015-2016

well, jimmy, the princeton officials were as suspicious as you! They took action to remeasure Mr. Benson's throws about three or four times. They recalibrated the measuring equipment. Since the results are still up, you must conclude that the throw was legit.

In regards to Mr Bensen, I was there. It went that far. He then proceeded to throw terribly. Freshman throws far, gets excited, and throws horribly the rest of the meet.

At this point it doesn't surprise me that people come in here and pretend like statistics are a valid reason to claim a throw was mis-measured. Same thing happened to Sam and various other throwers I've seen in my career. If I had a dollar for each time I've seen this happen, I'd be retired.

On top of that, you elude to some sort of conspiracy that Cornell would have had to go out at some point and mess with the measuring system at some point BETWEEN WOMENS HAMMER AND DISCUS.

It's just pathetic the amount of hate I see here. Stop with the nonsense and support these kids. Shame on you

Well, thanks for the further info, folks--and especially the eyewitness testimony!

Okay, seems like it was just such a scenario as I postulated: a freshman who threw 180ft in high school but has been struggling a bit maybe takes a (relaxed, "just to get a mark"?) first throw and hits a similar distance with the college implement. Again, haven't we all seen stuff like this?

I realize that most foax don't expect frosh to hit distances with the college implement that are similar to what they were throwing with the HS one, but a) Benson is a big guy--the extra weight wouldn't necessarily be a huge hindrance--and b) Cornell has had some similar successes in recent years: Stephen Mozia (not actually a particularly big guy himself) had an excellent, though rather late-blooming, high school career...and then came out as a freshman and threw distances that were at least in the ballpark of his HS marks.

Who knows, maybe there's some coaching going on at Cornell? ;-)

Interesting discussion--thanks to all.

Anyway, agreed: a 50-point meet, it won't be. I'd imagine the Big Red people are happy about that "ten-point swing" in the discus!

Meanwhile, the Princeton women have been sending Peter Farrell out In style. All the best to him!

ahre wrote:

Ivyguy wrote:

Men: Cornell 185, Princeton 135, Penn 109, Dartmouth 74, Yale 58(!), Harvard 55, Brown 45, Columbia 15

Anybody else having trouble seeing this as a 50-point meet? Even if Cornell wins two throwing events, Princeton figures to outscore them in the throws--maybe come close to doubling Cornell's points in those events. And aren't the two teams pretty evenly matched everywhere else?

Man, I had this way wrong, and rojo was at least half right. Cornell wins with 211 points, a meet record, and beats Princeton by 54. WOW.

Princeton put up a really solid fight, too. I had thought the rest of the League was moving toward parity, but you couldn't prove it by this weekend. Once again we're back (did we ever leave?) to the days of CU and PU together outscoring the other six members of the conference.

On the *men's* side, that is! I don't see anyone breaking up Harvard's dominance, any time soon. As long as they keep recruiting so effectively--and, be fair, developing their recruits' abilities so well--I don't see anyone touching them for quite a while. The wild card might be Princeton--their new-coach hiring process is going to be really interesting.

Pretty sad to question Benson's mark. The throws are incredibly inconsistent, and huge PRs are not uncommon. Personally, I remember at one point throwing a 6 meter PR in the javelin. Why is 48 to 55 so out of the question?

Lots of energy floating around on your first throw at HEPS, he hit all the positions perfectly, and it went 55m. As a freshman, he got worked up (understandably) and threw like garbage for the next 5 throws. This is the first big-time meet he's thrown in, and he stayed relaxed and popped off a great throw.

Also, the throw was measured three times, the system was re-calibrated, AND the calibrations were checked with a steel tape. So lay off the kid and quit questioning great performances just because they seem out of the ordinary.

Additionally, aything can happen, it's the HEPS!!!!

Big congrats to the Cornell team for their fantastic team performance. I also have to thank my team for a great overall wonderful meet. The entire meet was super, just look at some of the winning performances! Congratulations to all the teams. There was great enthusiasm and team spirit! Fred Samara

Any thoughts as to how the men's 5k unfolded? Silas from Dartmouth takes them through 3k in 8:40 and then steps off. Rainero then leads at 72 pace for a couple of laps. Spiezio from Princeton then tries to take the lead with 3 to go but Rainero and Awad speed up for half a lap to block him from the pole position, and then slam on the brakes again once Spiezio is boxed in. With 700 to go Spiezo tries to get though again but this time Rainero and Awad use their elbows to box him in so they can continue to run 72 pace. Then at 500 to go the pileup happens with Awad and Chapin going down.

Having watched the race several times on Flotrak, I will say simply that I thought Rainero's and Awad's tactics to slow the race down were questionable, especially using their elbows to block Spiezo with 700 to go. If they had let him keep the pace honest we might have had a decent race instead of the embarrassing debacle that actually occurred.

Spezio got the lead at one point but didn't pick it up enough to actually make it honest. If he wanted to avoid getting boxed in again, he's the one who should have protected his position by making sure he strung the field out more before giving up the lead.

If you want to make a move, you can't be halfhearted about it.

On the other hand wrote:

If you want to make a move, you can't be halfhearted about it.

This is true. Hoping some of your rivals let themselves get boxed and have to waste more energy than you is part of racing. In a slow race, it's on you to avoid letting it happen to you, and when you take the lead that late in a slow race for the purpose of making the pace faster, you'd better pick it up for real and actually try to drop people.

To his credit, Spezio got himself out of the box at first. But then he appeared to pull a typical "begging for help" feint, wanting a faster pace but hoping somebody else would come along and then set it so he could draft. He should have known that Awad and Rainero like their kicks and wanted a slow pace and if either of them re-took the lead, they were bound to slow it back down. He deserved to get boxed again.

When he caught the elbows, it was because he tried to force his way through the middle with no room. THAT was a questionable tactic.

5k Questionable Tactics wrote:

Having watched the race several times on Flotrak, I will say simply that I thought Rainero's and Awad's tactics to slow the race down were questionable, especially using their elbows to block Spiezo with 700 to go. If they had let him keep the pace honest we might have had a decent race instead of the embarrassing debacle that actually occurred.

Spiezio got exactly what he deserved. With 1200 to go he moved to the lead and cut off Awad, which caused Awad to stumble and swing wide. Then with 900 to go he tried to squeeze his way through Awad and Rainero running shoulder to shoulder- understandable that they would protect their position rather than just get shoved out of the way. In the brief period when he did have the lead he didn't do anything to push the pace any more than anyone else was.

In fairness to Spiezio, in a race that slow and crowded there are limited openings and plenty of contact. But the only "questionable tactics" I saw were a squirrelly freshman trying to muscle his way to the front rather than outrunning his competition. If you're trying to create space where there is none you can't be surprised that the other runners don't just step aside and give it to you.

5k Questionable Tactics wrote:

If they had let him keep the pace honest we might have had a decent race instead of the embarrassing debacle that actually occurred.

Are you the arbiter on "questionable tactics"? What has to happen until there are no questionable tactics anymore? Everyone sits pretty in a line for five thousand meters until your favorite athlete wins?

Your prejudice leads you to see nefarious intent in my actions. All I did was keep my lead. If Spiezio really wanted to speed the race up, then he should have made a bigger move to the front. I'm not just gonna give up the moment someone puts a little pressure on. It's absolutely ridiculous that you think I should have let him run his "honest pace". I would have, had he made a move I didn't want to match -- but as long as I was comfortable, I would have kept my position. In fact, he probably didn't want it to speed up. He's a 14:1x guy. He just wanted to be nearer to the front, like any racer.

The reason I called you prejudiced is because you clearly didn't watch the race / read the splits properly. You said that I slammed on the brakes again once he was boxed in. After Jeremy got boxed again, we finished the lap with a 70.0. The next lap was a 64.8.

In addition, Spiezio tried to "get through again" at 900m, not 700m. Watch the video again. Try to tell me that I should have just let him force his way through between me and Awad. You don't do that in track. It was entirely normal for us to use our elbows to keep him back, since he was trying to knock us over.

There was a ton of kicking and shoving going on in that race. Tommy and I ran clean races, from the front.

My final point. I get the sense that there's a lot of people who complain about tactical races because they're never in the position to win a race. When you get to the fitness level where you can win races -- and you have a kick -- why on earth would you not use it. Leading, while running a fast pace, is very taxing. It's the nature of the sport.

I slowed the race down the moment I got the lead -- to a 74. Each successive lap was faster.

Ben, first off congratulations on your terrific double and I think your feedback on my comments is fair. After I posted I realized the elbows happened at 850- 900m mark. Furthermore all you did was accelerate to hold the pole position when Spezio came up with 3 to go which is legitimate.

I would add though that the 70 second lap from 1200 to 800 went approximately 34-36. So I think it's fair to say the brakes were applied once Spiezo failed to take the lead and Awad passed him with 1000 to go. You guys were jogging when the elbows where flying at 900m. But that is legitimate racing and you are right that there was nothing "questionable" from a fairness perspective. The reality is that 13:40 type runners get to tell a 14:1x guy when the race is going to heat up.

But obviously the race was debacle from the perspective of the guys who fell because things were too bunched up at 500 to go when everyone was changing gears.

In any case, congrats and best of luck with the rest of your season. I'll be rooting for both you and the rest of the Heps guys.

Thanks for the response. The falls really sucked. With Joey and Tommy still in the race, it would have been a hell of a last lap, and who knows how it would have played out -- but I would be happier with either winning or losing in that situation.

All I know is that these things happen at the worst moments, and, sadly, there's a considerable amount of luck needed in addition to fitness to win races.

About the 70s lap -- if you timed it, you're probably right. I was just running whatever effort I needed to stay in front, and I have no idea if I let off the gas pedal once there was no more pressure on my shoulder. I was pretty tired!

Thanks for a thoughtful discussion about the 5,000. I appreciate the detailed (and *respectful*) exchange of views.

To be honest I was surprised that a Cornell guy posted! I was under the impression that most/all of the Ivy coaches (and coaches elsewhere, for that matter) told their guys to stay off LRC during the season--you don't want to supply "bulletin board" material for your opponents. OTOH, maybe the coaches are cool with it once you get past the conference meet!

But anyway, congrats to the Big Red men. Winning half the events (11/22)--and following up with several second places--in a high-quality meet is really impressive.

Real classy by Awad afterward throwing a little tantrum and getting in a competitors face. Saw the whole post race meltdown, and it was ugly. A mother had to move her young kids away from him because of the extremely loud cursing happening on the grass behind the homestretch.

It sucks to have that happen, but no need for all the foul language in front of many young people.

Thanks a lot to everyone that responded here; agreed interesting.

Rainero actually created his own running log website last July and posts all his training online there. I think it's a great read every once in a while (and a really well-designed site):

https://biggerlog.com/users/1?date=2016-02-01

#biggerlog

You can also use https://betasigmadelta.com/ if you prefer