Coevett wrote:Isn't it a massive coincidence that the emergence of 'naturally superior' Kenyans and other Africans as a dominant force occurred exactly at the same moment in track history that the first real endurance enhancing drug became widely available?
is this a joke ???
it woud cost $10000++ to get such to superman level in those "emergence" years
explain to world who was paying this ???
Deanouk wrote:
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
[quote]calculo wrote:
if sal had brains to pay for 2nd set of pacers for mo to bell, he wouda been looking at 1.93s faster for a clocking of 3'27-flat !!!
if mo is capable of that gebremeskel was entitled to better, thus definitely into 3'26s
Classic you should go into standup comedy, because that ⤴is hysterically laughable. When Mo ran 3:28.9 he looked embarrassed, guilty and confused all at the same time. +2s is a massive amount to make up, 3.53m per lap. If you look at that race he was already fully stretched.
Agreed
eh ?
with a guy who can't think or offer even basic math ?
The problem with many of those posting on this thread (and it is clear that several are from the same person using different names) is that they are under the illusion that practically everyone can run under 3:30
is this a joke ?
learn to count
there are buckets of guys under 3'30
it's not hard for africans & never was after Keino in '68 probably was in 3'25-shape if 1-off run
despite the fact that in recent times only a couple of athletes manage it in any one year
you have no clue about modern circuit
it is win at all costs
no more mickey-mouse 6-lane tracks with no auto-timing to help
Talk of anyone, not to mention a predominantly 5000m runner, being able to 'easily' run 3:26 or 3:27, is ludicrous
nonsense
an extraordinary 3k guy here was in
3'43+
if he had not got balked twice from start !!!, not veered straight right into lane 3 !!!, made suicdial sprint to get to pole by 200, made pace for current mile WR holder, he wouda run above in better planned run
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNJvjal6FbYThis misguidance stems from the silly times posted in the EPO era
is this a joke ?
who are guys you talking about ?
name them ?
and the use of these enhanced performances as some kind of (unrealistic and skewed) benchmark for those that have followed
is this a joke ?
800 is incredible !!!
1'40.91 off 23.5. solo !!!, after rounds
possibly Wilson couda matched it, probably not Cruz, even off epic '84, so 800 is current era
do you think 1'40.91 was run in '05 ???
The 3:26's, 7:20's, 12:37's all went way beyond the historical progression in those events when they were established
is this a joke ???
what "historical progression" & when "established" ???
offer us what 800 shouda been from when Whitfield ran 1'49.2y of 21.6y !!!! if on '70s track
impress board
The fact they occurred during an era when EPO testing either didn't exist or was still unreliable and in its infancy, is not mere coincidence. The clincher that they were heavily enhanced and assisted times, is the fact that it has been made abundantly clear in recent years, that most of the athletes came from a background where there has been corruption and no out of season random testing carried out by their national federations. The countries concerned are too poor
is this a joke ?
who has been busted on elite male stage ?
In the last couple of years, we have had various positives of elite Kenyan middle and distance runners;
is this a joke ???
which elite male Kenyans you offer ???
despite being continually told by their coaches that EPO doesn't help elite Kenyans
who are these plural coaches ???
and that it isn't in their nature to do so in any case
which plurality ?
the story published in Botswana itself, that Amos was told when testers were on their way to him and avoided them on several occasions, to mention but a few
post one
when it becomes of level of toxoplasmosis +ve, then is time to worry
I'm hoping that the IAAF is finally sorting itself out and looking into these situations, and if not sorted historically, will do as much as is humanly possible to stop them occurring in the future
they can immediately start with "toxoplamosis +ves" from '80s
that's a start
The very average times and splits produced in this year's men's 800 & 1500 World Champs finals, would appear to indicate that this is the case.
is this a joke ?
utterly miserable weather, great for northerners, but did you think if Big-man turned up here in exact '12-peak shape, you were inexperienced enough to believe he'd run 1'40.91 ?
Only when athletes from all countries are tested on a level playing field, with equal access to their athletes from independent bodies will it be clear to see that 3:26 and 7:20 are nonsense times
is this a joke ?
numerous guys have run 3'26 or 3'43 or close enough intrinsic to 3'24.20 - 3'26.99
how dare you claim otherwise
you have no clue at all about the sport
We will hopefully go back to the days where sub 3:30, 7:28, 12:55, etc, become rare
is this a joke ?
none of those times were in same coupla years
what "days" you propose ?
and those proposing 3:26 and sub 7:20 as a normal expectation of several elites
is this a joke ?
Asbel already run it
Silas shoud have if not for appalling circumstances
in fact, both shouda clocked 3'25+ if got perfect run
add in Komen, who ran intrinsic 3'43+ just 4 days after a 12'39 !!!
finally understand how unrealistic they have been
is this a joke ?
do you not comprehend how fast guys of last coupla decades are if they get great pacing to bell ?
If you can't break 1:46 for 800 then you can't run 3:28 for 1500 unaided
is this a joke ?
what "law of running" are you quoting ?
impress board
who told you this ?
then ask culprit when is it mandated to run 1'45+ before running 3'28+ ?
offer it to board !
and if you can run 12:55 for 5000m it doesn't guarantee that you can run 3:28 either
is this a joke ?
who ever claimed it ?
A one method fits all calculator for extrapolating optimum times from 400 to 10000m is equally nonsense
is this a joke ?
what immense math or physics ability allows you to claim this ?
impress board
Everyone is different
no
huge paucity argument
at top end, humans follow same rules of running
if Komen couda been expected to run 7'20 in '96, then offer better calculator ?
That is a given and should be obvious to those who use such toys
is this a joke ?
which "toy" couda predicted Komen-'7'20 once someone claimed he ran 1'47.3TT week before?
that are not supported or used by any legitimate body in the sport
is this a joke ?
no one cares about legitimate bodies
i bit the bullet & estimated mo's 1500 potential in '15 off 0.1s variations
offer your "incredible" analysis to counter my conclusion of
~ 3'26.50
Renato Canova wrote:
Subway, these are my answers to your questions :
a) Yes, Cova used self transfusion till 1985, when officially the practice was considered doping. Cova never went in altitude.
Antibo, as Cova, used self transfusion till 1984. He never went in altitude till that year. Both of them, plus Panetta, had long periods of training in Finland, at sea level, while preparing WCh and Olymnpics.
When in 1985 Antibo quitted that practice, he started to go altitude, every year with more frequency, and started to improve every PB, finally training CLEAN. The best Antibo ever was in 1990, when he won ECh going alone in 59" in the first lap in 10000m, and won 5000m in spite to lose about 15" falling down at the start, and losing one shoe.
For everybody knowing his situation, it was clear altitude worked very much better than self transfusion.
b) There are "no responders" to blood doping, exactly as there are "no responders" to any type of medicine. Quit the idea that the individual behavior about EXTERNAL INTERVENTIONS (of any type) is a perfect "trend". Our behavior in case of external forces depends on a lot of factors, the most part of them till now never investigated in scientific way.
c) NO. I repeated several times : a marathon runner able running 2:10 after self transfusion can run 2:08 in clean way, if his training is in the right direction. Put in your mind that the training of doped athletes, and the training of clean athletes, are not the same. With self transfusion it's possible to have a SHORTCUT for reaching maybe 90% of the individual Aerobic Power, but nothing more for reaching 100%, and no self transfusions, nor EPO, nor other blood manipulations can have effect during the SPECIFIC PERIOD. The ability to develop the SPECIFIC ENDURANCE in the right way depends on training in altitude only, where we can observe physiological variations that EPO is not able to produce.
d) You do know that many politicians were caught for corruption ? You do know that many priests were caught for pedophilia ? You do know that many VIP are attacked for sexual harassement ? For you this mean that ALL the politicians are corrupted, ALL the priests are pedophile, and all the VIP are fundamentally pigs ?
How is it possible to think that, when we have ONE athlete in top 100 in the all time list in the marathon caught for doping, THIS is the rule, and the other 99 are OF COURSE DOPED, but were so smart, or so scientifically supported, that they are CASUALLY CLEAN in spite of the fact they MUST BE DOPED (otherwise, how is it possible they can run so fast ?).
So, the most stupid question is : IF TYSON GAY WAS DOPED, HOW IS POSSIBLE USAIN BOLT, WHO WAS FASTER THAN HIM, WAS CLEAN ?
Tell me Subway : if Bach, Wagner, Verdi, Rossini, started to produce their masterpieces when 40 or 50, how is possible Mozart was already able to compone incredible music when was 5 years old ?
Never did you hear to speak about TALENT ?
e) During a Marathon, especially in bad weather conditions (for example, during WCh or OG that are in full Summer), runners sweat a lot, losing mineral salts together with water, and changing their hydrosalin balance. If they are athletes with high viscosity (that means LESS PLASMA), losing the mosr part of liquids means their concentration of Hct becomes very high, and the blood circulation is rallented during the race, because of the increasing peripheral resistance. This means, at the end of the day, THAT THE QUANTITY OF OXYGEN TRANSPORTED TO THE MUSCLE FIBERS DECREASES, that is the opposite of what the obsessed by EPO think, and is exactly one of the reasons because, DURING THE RACE, speaking about Marathon, EPO CAN BE DAMAGEOUS FOR THE PERFORMANCE.
f) I'm not able to answers this question.
g) WADA doesn't ban a substance because is beneficial for Marathon Runners, but when thinks can be beneficial for EVERY TYPE OF EVENT. I never said self transfusion, or EPO, couldn't give advantages in races where the effort is SUPERIOR THE LEVEL OF VO2 MAX (duration UNDER 10'). But it seems that, for people in LR, everything instead is referred to LONGER distances, starting from 5000m (10000m, HM and Marathon).
The fact is exactly that, with very high viscosity, in events of SHORT DURATION the quantity of transported Oxygen in the unity of time is more important than the TOTAL QUANTITY of Oxygen transported during the duration of all the race, because the velocity of the circulation is not affected too much, looking at the power requested by the heart for pushing blood in the circle. But, because this higher effort of the heart, the same becomes TIRED very early, doing and EXTRA WORK for pushing the blood, and reduces the pulsatory level, step by step.
I can give an example, which probably can help you to understand :
You have a bike with very hard gear (for example, 55 x 12) : YOU CAN REACH HIGHER SPEED, BUT CAN MAINTAIN IT FOR SHORT TIME ONLY, BECAUSE YOUR MUSCLES BECOME VERY TIRED SINCE THE EFFORT IS MAXIMAL.
If you want to have the best possible distribution of your effort in duration, you need to have a less hard gear (53 x 13, for example), you apply LESS energy every time, and you can last longer at your MAX AVERAGE SPEED.
With increased viscosity, and increased ability to transport Oxygen (but at the same time increased viscosity), WE ASK OUR HEART A SUPPLEMENTARY EFFORT, REDUCING THE POSSIBILITY OF DURATION AT THE SAME LEVEL.
That's the reason because, longer is the race, more important is to reduce the PERIFERAL RESISTANCE in the blood circulation, and is also the reason because, LONGER IS THE RACE, LESS EPO WORKS.
Regarding the test of WADA, it's better to put a pitiful sheet on their affordability. It's enough to read again the most stupid test ever (the one giving EPO to 15 Kenyan boys with average 9'30" in 3000m, and to 15 Scottish boys with average of 11'),
for discovering that "In spite of the international coach Renato Canova wrote, that EPO doesn't work with Kenyans, this experiment shows also with them EPO works") for understanding how they look for smoke and not for roast (I have still to understand if they don't know anything, or if are not honest and want to cheat people believing in their NO SCIENTIFIC STUPIDITIES, because antidoping is a big BUSINESS for all people involved).
If Meldonium was produced in US or in UK, 100% that NEVER was considered doping (NEVER that was some research regarding that medicine).
h) Already I answered in other threads, and in the point d). You can beat a WR only with extra-category athletes, how were Gebre, Komen, Bekele, Shaheen, Dibaba, Defar, and now Ayana. We have some of extra level in the women field, not in the men field, at the moment. The fact Jenny Simpson, living in altitude, never was able to run in 3'50", is, excuse me the word, a "bullshit", because presumes that she had the same talent of who was able to run in 3'50", and this is not true, how the analysis of ALL her career clearly shows. I live in altitude 300 days per year, but this is not a reason enough because I can run, at my age, faster that the WR for the Master category over 70 years....
Bolt! Let's just ignore lack of testing in Jamaica when he set all his records.
Wether EPO works in East Africans is irrelevant if they think it works.
Back to Farah Vs Bekele. Who was faster over 400m?
You wrote :
The fact that EPO works better for longer distances and that he 800m has only improved marginally would be evidence that EPO was a factor in times in the 90s.
This is not true, if you don't explain WHICH DISTANCES.
EPO works at its best for events lasting around 10 minutes, directly connected with the Aerobic Power and the Lactic Threshold, because its effect is to raise the LT. However, how I explained before, the increased viscosity has a NEGATIVE effect on the velocity of the blood circulation, and, when we have a long intervention of the circulatory system in the performance, LONGER IS THE RACE, LESS IS THE ADVANTAGE, because the disadvantage of a reduced velocity of the circulation becomes, minutes after minutes, bigger, and, when we speak about Marathon, THE DISADVANTAGE IS HIGHER THAN THE ADVANTAGE.
It's clear you don't have any clue about Kenya, and Africa in general, in the past.
The first "mzungu" going Kenya as manager was John Bicourt, at the beginning of the 80 years, and the Kenyan athletics started to develop after those days only. Before 1983 there were no WCh, and the only activity at international level for Kenyans were Olympics and Commonwealth Games. That means ALL THE ODD YEARS WERE EMPTY.
Add that Kenya boycotted Olympics 1980, and you have a period (between 1976 and 1984) during which the only institutional events for Kenyan athletes were Commonwealth Games.
In 1966 Commonwealth Games were hold in Kingston, and Kenyans won 3 Gold with Kip Keino (Mile in 3'55"34 and 3 miles in 12'57"4 beating Ron Clarke) and with Naftali Temu (6 miles in 27'14"21 destroying Ron Clarke, WR holder of 10000m, who ran 27'39"42). This was the prelude of OG 1968 in Mexico City, with Gold for Keino in 1500m, Temu in 10000m, Biwott in steeple, and many other medals.
In 1970, in Edinburgh, Asati won 400m in 45"01, Ouko 800m, Keino 1500m, and RON HILL (white and English) MARATHON IN 2:09:28 (this 47 years ago... but now there are idiots thinking that for running under 2:10 athletes must be doped !).
In 1974, we had from Africa, in Christchurch, WR of 1500 (Philbert Bayi of Tanzania in 3'32"16 without rabbits, and Ben Jipcho was 3rd in 3'33"16), Kipkurgat won 800m in 1'43"91 after crazy splits (he had the world best of 600m for long time with his split in Christchurch), Jipcho won steeple in 8'20"67 and 5000m in 13'14"03, and IAN THOMPSON (another white English mzungu) MARATHON IN 2;09.12 (read again what I wrote about Ron Hill).
Do you think there was EPO in that era ? Do you think there was economical advantage ? Do you think there was scientific organization ?
You, and the most part of posters in LR, need to have some lesson of the History of Athletics before writing stupid statements, that only show how far you are from the real athletics at top level.
Coevett wrote:
wtfunny wrote:
Why does anyone suppose East Africans might NOT have any kind of natural advantage in distance athletics? IMO, the greatest illustration of some natural superiority is not in the outliers, like Bekele and Komen, etc .. it's in the sheer numbers of elite track, XC and road runners who seem to dominate the sport. Or look at guys like Mo .. what are the odds that some Somalian refugee who moved to the UK when he was 8 years old becoming the single most dominant track athlete in the UK in history? Unless, of course, there is some kind of genetic advantage that many from E. Africa seem to have.
The rest of your post is complete garbage but I'll address the Mo Farah point briefly.
"briefly"??
Coevett wrote:
You don't have a clue about demographics or statistics.
So how many millions of African refugees has Europe let in over the last couple of decades? Probably 10 - 20 million, mostly young males. If Mo Farah 's family had gone to Italy or Germany and achieved the same you would say 'what are the odds of Mo Farah moving to Germany as a child refugee....etc'.
I would indeed. And the point would remain perfectly valid.
Coevett wrote:Somalians are ridiculously over represented in violent crime and rape statistics in Europe. I read some time back that Somalis in Norway make up something like 90% of convicted rapists. Does this mean we have to draw the conclusion that Somalis are genetically advantaged in the rape department? Or is racism only valid when it's lefties making the claim that Africans are physically superior?
If you agree white people are "genetically advantaged" for mass murder?
If you think it's reasonable to conflate athletic genetic advantage with rape, you're even more stupid than you appear to be.
Coevett wrote:
...What are the odds of Kenyans being the endurance master race and yet a pasty faced Scottish kid moving to Kenya- one of 0.01% whites of the population - becoming far and away the richest and most famous sportsman in Kenyan history (and in an endurance sport)?
I have no idea what you're talking about here. And I suspect you don't either.
Coevett wrote:There's another way of looking at Kenyan so called 'domination' and genetic superiority. Kenyan success at distance running is not due to genetic superiority but due to genetic inferiority. White Europeans can compete at hundreds of different sports, but Kenyans appear only to be dominant in one. Kenyans can't even compete in sprints or field events apart from the occasional 400m runner.
uhhhmmmm .. sure .. if you need to .. whatever works for ya, I guess.
Coevett wrote:The white under 30 population of the UK is now less than half that of Kenya's, yet if EVERY talented sporting white kid in Britain was pushed into distance running, I'm pretty sure we would dominate just as surely as Kenyans do. In fact, we did dominate in the 70's and 80's running similar times to Kenyans are running 40 years later, when the UK had a smaller youth population even back then and dozens of other sports talented young athletes would choose over running.
Ahhh .. that's it .. the UK's renown distance talent pool are playing football and rugby. Because everyone knows the genetics that lend themselves to running sub 13 minute 5000m races is perfectly designed to be a prop or a center forward.
Coevett wrote:And btw, what on Earth is wrong in being proud of your own nation's sporting history you weasel?
Absolutely nothing. But what on earth might be wrong with acknowledging that maybe some other are just better at something than you are?
Coevett wrote:
..... In fact, we did dominate in the 70's and 80's running similar times to Kenyans are running 40 years later, ....
I forgot to ask .. which is it .. Kenyans are running similar times to European athletes from the 70's and 80's, or Kenyans are hordes of cheating dopers running "silly" times that make no sense?
You're talking out of both sides of your a$$.
Cerealously wrote:
Coevett wrote:
And btw, what on Earth is wrong in being proud of your own nation's sporting history you weasel?
Coevett person, you are an embarrassment to the sport.
Please fvck off.
Thank you.
LOL, o.k., so being proud of your own nation's sporting history is now a thought crime, I mean embarrassment. Any white guy who was ever any good must have been juiced to the gills, and anyone who denies the genetic superiority of black people is a racist Nazi. Kenyans and Somalis are noble savages who would never dope, and if they ever did use drugs, it would only be to knock out young blonde girls before raping them aka Billy Konchella. Never in a million years for performance enhancement. The fact that Coe ran over a second faster than a such a genetically gifted savage like Konchella who would never resort to drugs (except for raping children) proves that Coe was on every steroid under the sun and all whites are inherently evil (except white middle-class liberals who earn redemption through constantly point out the evilness of their race).
Now I feel better about being a failed (white) runner. I should never have felt bad, because I never had any hope of getting anywhere with my inferior pasty white genes. I understand now. I will spend the rest of my time on this board making unfounded doping allegations against Coe, Ovett, Cram whilst turning a blind eye to the well publicized and documented doping problem in Africa that is really just media fabrication and the result of white jealousy and racism.
LM wrote:
Every diamond league is paced, but sometimes slowly, and sometimes they don't even go with the pacers. How many 5ks are hitting 4k at 10:20 or how many 1500s hitting bell at 2:30-2:35? Very, very few. Almost every time a race does fulfill this criteria we have seen sub 12:50 and sub 3:30 respectively.
☞ first of all I have said before on here that pacing should be no more than 50% of the distance.
☞ Mo couldn't keep up with the pacers in Monaco drafted and non drafted he ran the same time.
☞ if you have watched 3-10000m races over the last five years you will know that Mo is often paced for times of 7:27 12:54 26:40 yet immediately after the pacer drops out the race slows then Mo wins in a last lap sprint with a time of 7:35 13:03 26:52. This is not surprising given reports that Mo might say do a 13:20-30 time trial in training and then try and run 49-50s rep(s) for 400m. Mo cannot run 5 hard kms in a row. Casual Obsever was correct when he pointed out that there is still fast pacing but the athletes no longer could run at these speeds.
☞Gebremeskel ran a 54.8 after previous laps of 63 and 61 or 2:58.8 for 1200m that is barely sub 4 mile pace. Now if we look at the excellent last lap of Bernard Lagat in 2006 (London???) of 51.7s which ended with a time of 12:59.22 yet he didn’t run a faster 5,000m for 4 years although during this period he was world champion (2007) and runner up (2009). And Lagat's 400m split was a faster pace then he has ever run over 800m (though numerous attempts). I had a front row seat for the World Championships 5000m final in 2003 and Bekele ran the 1st 3k at 60/61s pace but then slowed in the 4th km which allowed El Guerrouj and Kipchoge back into race. Many elites slow to clear "their lungs" so to say. It is amazing how people don't understand the idea of an indifference point, if the race was just 3s faster over the previous lap there is no way he could run 51.7s or anything near that. Arthur Lydiard clearly outlines how subtle differences in pace equal a lot of extra oxygen consumption. Yet to extrapolate a potential time off one lap is erroneous, it was a very, very good time run by Gebremeskel that day but he never got close to that time again nor has Ndiku ever gotten close to 3:27. Consistency is the only guide we have to make predictions from. The rest is immature speculation.
LM wrote:
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
How many times did he run sub 3:30?
There are plenty of ways to argue against 3:27 for any other time for Ndiku or another runner, this is not one of them.
You are being ridiculous, this THE ONLY WAY that we can tell if a guy is capable of running 3:27. He ran sub 3:31 once, stone cold once. Mate you are as bad as Ventolin.
calculo wrote:
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote: Sub 12:40 & 26:30, I am more likely to believe the Yeti holidays on Mars then those times
you have absolutely no clue at all
Not run since the ABP.
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
☞ first of all I have said before on here that pacing should be no more than 50% of the distance.
☞ Mo couldn't keep up with the pacers in Monaco drafted and non drafted he ran the same time.
☞ if you have watched 3-10000m races over the last five years you will know that Mo is often paced for times of 7:27 12:54 26:40 yet immediately after the pacer drops out the race slows then Mo wins in a last lap sprint with a time of 7:35 13:03 26:52. This is not surprising given reports that Mo might say do a 13:20-30 time trial in training and then try and run 49-50s rep(s) for 400m. Mo cannot run 5 hard kms in a row. Casual Obsever was correct when he pointed out that there is still fast pacing but the athletes no longer could run at these speeds.
☞Gebremeskel ran a 54.8 after previous laps of 63 and 61 or 2:58.8 for 1200m that is barely sub 4 mile pace. Now if we look at the excellent last lap of Bernard Lagat in 2006 (London???) of 51.7s which ended with a time of 12:59.22 yet he didn’t run a faster 5,000m for 4 years although during this period he was world champion (2007) and runner up (2009). And Lagat's 400m split was a faster pace then he has ever run over 800m (though numerous attempts). I had a front row seat for the World Championships 5000m final in 2003 and Bekele ran the 1st 3k at 60/61s pace but then slowed in the 4th km which allowed El Guerrouj and Kipchoge back into race. Many elites slow to clear "their lungs" so to say. It is amazing how people don't understand the idea of an indifference point, if the race was just 3s faster over the previous lap there is no way he could run 51.7s or anything near that. Arthur Lydiard clearly outlines how subtle differences in pace equal a lot of extra oxygen consumption. Yet to extrapolate a potential time off one lap is erroneous, it was a very, very good time run by Gebremeskel that day but he never got close to that time again nor has Ndiku ever gotten close to 3:27. Consistency is the only guide we have to make predictions from. The rest is immature speculation.
10/10. I like your style of posting - far better than that pretentious "calculo" character who's ad nauseam posts are becoming reminiscent of an unemployed comedian.
wtfunny wrote:
"briefly"??
Ahh, so making snarky one sentence replies in the absence of any substantial counterarguments constitutes a rebuttal in your eyes?
wtfunny wrote:
I would indeed. And the point would remain perfectly valid.
No, you'd still be a low IQ ass who has no comprehension of demographics or statistics.
wtfunny wrote:
If you agree white people are "genetically advantaged" for mass murder?
I mean wtf? Do you even know what you're referring to here? Nobody could tell from reading you. You mean the LA shooter? You mean Hitler or WW1 or something? I guess we'll ignore the Rwandan massacare where a million were butchered with machetes and contemplation of what African dictators would do with Hitler type command of industrial resources and military technological superiority
wtfunny wrote:
If you think it's reasonable to conflate athletic genetic advantage with rape, you're even more stupid than you appear to be.
Right, whites are gentically inclined to mass murder, it has nothing to do with inventing industry and mechanized warfare and being a in a historical position to inflict carnage through overwhelming logistic superiority over neighbours. (or being 80% of the population if you're referring to mass shootings - who the hell knows?) However, 1% Somalis committing 90% rapes in Norway has to be the result of white racism. Maybe blonde Norwegian sluts not covering themselves up to respect Somali culture. Kenyans are so genetically distinct from whites that any white runner who ever got close to their times must have been juiced to the gills, but genetics can never explain vast behavioural differences between groups of people. Do you realize that a gibbering chimpanzee makes more sense than you?
wtfunny wrote:
I have no idea what you're talking about here. And I suspect you don't either.
That's because you're really not very bright are you?
wtfunny wrote:
Ahhh .. that's it .. the UK's renown distance talent pool are playing football and rugby. Because everyone knows the genetics that lend themselves to running sub 13 minute 5000m races is perfectly designed to be a prop or a center forward.
Only if you're dumb enough despite your liberal middle-class white education to think that out of the hundreds of sports whites compete in at the elite level there are only Rugby props and center forwards.
wtfunny wrote:
Absolutely nothing. But what on earth might be wrong with acknowledging that maybe some other are just better at something than you are?
Because it's a bit creepy this white middle-class liberal fetishisation of black athleticism, especially when done by the same privilaged white lefties who would like people locked up for even debating whether black intellectual underachievement is the result of genetics or culture.
And please... understand that nothing but snark simply makes you look like the pompous liberal cretin you are.
wtfunny wrote:
Coevett wrote:
..... In fact, we did dominate in the 70's and 80's running similar times to Kenyans are running 40 years later, ....
I forgot to ask .. which is it .. Kenyans are running similar times to European athletes from the 70's and 80's, or Kenyans are hordes of cheating dopers running "silly" times that make no sense?
You're talking out of both sides of your a$$.
Ermm...how about the times produced by Africans juiced to the gills in the 90s compared to the slower times twenty years later when they are forced to microdose?
Please stop embarrassing yourself.
But maybe you can actually answer the following question like a rational adult instead of a snarky 12 year old. In your opinion, are North African arabs similarly genetically superior to whites? How do Moroccan/Algerian arabs/berbers , who are genetically closer to white Europeans, compare to Kenyans/Ethiopians on the African ubermensch scale?
calculo wrote:
Coevett wrote:Isn't it a massive coincidence that the emergence of 'naturally superior' Kenyans and other Africans as a dominant force occurred exactly at the same moment in track history that the first real endurance enhancing drug became widely available?
is this a joke ???
it woud cost $10000++ to get such to superman level in those "emergence" years
explain to world who was paying this ???
Actually, EPO was very cheap to begin with, costing as little as $300 for a 6 month supply (at a non life threatening rate of injection). It's price went up on the black market towards the end of the 90s and ironically this might have had as big an effect in reducing its use as the EPO testing. Regardless, you're utterly clueless if you think it was out of the reach of African athletes performing on the European circuit who would quickly get their money back in increased appearance fees and prize money.
Hi I was actually going to reply to your other post but Ventolin and LM have sapped my time so this will do.
You say that EPO is best for events around 10 mins, which would going by what you say "EPO works at its best for events lasting around 10 minutes, directly connected with the Aerobic Power and the Lactic Threshold, because its effect is to raise the LT." This would be the 3,000m steeplechase and 5,000m though 1500m/mile/3000m would also no doubt benefit. But the evidence suggests that 100m sprinters and long jumpers have benefited from the drug because it makes them fitter. Numerous Russian marathon women and race walker's have been stripped of medals for doping violations so it must work.
You made the same argument yesterday with blood transfusions not helping over longer distances 10,000m -marathon. But Viren, Vainio and Cova have used it to maximal benefit over 10,000m and many people on here are adamant that Paula Radcliffe's released OFF scores could have only come about from a blood transfusion, that was from the world half marathon race. Paula still holds the world marathon record.
All of this seems to run contrary to what we have heard about both EPO and blood transfusions in the Tour de France and Lance Armstrong etc. Just like marathons the TDF is long periods of sub maximal exertion and reports that
both EPO and blood transfusions were extremely beneficial as exhibited by the comments of Armstrong and Hamilton. Frank Shorter is pretty adamant that blood doping helps for longer distances hence his crusade against it.
In the middle of 1993 the WR for 10,000m was 27:08.23 in five years later it was 26:22.75. With no new revolutionary improvements in training knowledge. That is what we refer to as the EPO-era.
I have no doubt that altitude training can be beneficial, this statement of yours is correct. But Mo hasn't been beaten by a Kenyan over 5 or 10 for ??? He does do training stints at altitude but he spends long periods at sea level but sleeps in an altitude tent. I think it was Ron Hill that blamed altitude for his problems at the 1972 Olympics (this could be wrong). But that was probably more him. I think it was Peter Snell (among others) who tested this and claimed live high train low was the most effective.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11509506Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
I have no doubt that altitude training can be beneficial, this statement of yours is correct. But Mo hasn't been beaten by a Kenyan over 5 or 10 for ??? He does do training stints at altitude but he spends long periods at sea level but sleeps in an altitude tent. I think it was Ron Hill that blamed altitude for his problems at the 1972 Olympics (this could be wrong). But that was probably more him. I think it was Peter Snell (among others) who tested this and claimed live high train low was the most effective.
Coevett wrote:
1 - If everyone doped back then what exactly is your point? So everybody doped back then, but Coe was an especially good 'responder'? Meanwhile Africans are the only group who don't dope, despite their countries being far more corrupt, far more lax (or non-existant) with doping, and having far more financial incentive.
Again, read what I wrote.
1) Yes, everybody doped back then, so there is no reason to single out Coe and blame him. I really don't have a problem with that, but I do think that people with his attitude should not be in charge of the IAAF.
In turn, there is even less reason to pretend that he was so noble that he'd never cheat, though it was a) beneficial and b) without risk. Examples for his character were given in his thread, and many more in other threads.
In addition, check the timeline of blood transfusions: there were legal during his WR. So yes, he had quite some advantages over today's runners.
2) I never said that "Africans are the only group who don't dope", I never even said that "Africans ... don't dope". I am quite sure no one in this thread did, but I may have overlooked something in rekrunner's long responses.
3) What was your argument for the doping of the Africans? Fast times, world records, high prevalence of doping, and that doping was possible with only minimal risk? I fully agree, but of course use the same argument for other cultures, including Europeans.
4) The talent-of-the-century argument is too overused. It gets really ridiculous if used for a group of people competing at the same time, whose times then won't be reached for decades. Or for people who couldn't keep up with the top until they turned 25. You use it for Coe and Ovett, rekrunner for Radcliffe and Farah, vento for Ryun, Komen, Kamworor and Rudisha, Canova for Bolt, Bekele, Haile, Shaheen, Kipchoge, and those are just some examples of this thread alone. The list goes on, including Armstrong and Ullrich in the cycling world.
5) Even today, the IAAF bans only 50 - 80 athletes per year, including lots of no names, when over 1000 championship athletes (44 - 57%, likely underestimated) admitted to doping in 2011. So yes, the stars are still doping with impunity.
6) Canova estimated only 5% dopers, and rekrunner 10 - 15%, in writing on letsrun. I always remember that when they accuse others of stupidity.
Coevett wrote:
2 - You can't pick and choose whether steroids will give you big muscles. Coe was a pioneer in weight lifting for distance runners, before him it was considered that it would you you down or add unnecessary weight.
Of course you can pick that, by choosing the doses and kinds. Again, look at Baumann and Slaney. We all know Coe was convinced that strength was advantageous. We also know about his interest in the East German methods.
This is precisely it. We can plainly see that the "original statement" and all my responses clarifying the original statement, were not about "doping" generally, in the two sports, but specifically about the "narrative in top tier running" not being "anything like the same". It's not about doping, but that the doping stories of the "top tier" athletes from the two sports are completely different. In top-tier running narratives, we often get examples like Lombard and Hesch and Hellebuyck. Steroid busted Baumann is barely top-50, while Sumgong is barely top-30. Which top-30 cyclist or "not in the top-1000" cyclist is part of cycling's doping narratives? We never had to dig that deep in cycling, because of the high concentration of known dopers "at the top". In running narratives, we often have to dig down deep in the rankings, sometimes below the top 1000, or look at other sports, like cycling or race-walking, because there are so few examples of top-tier distance runners known to have doped, unless we look at a few selected events, like sprinting and women's middle distance, where steroids work. Most of the narratives about doping in cycling are about the grand tours, including the Tour de France. I did not pick just the TdF narratives, but it's the only cycling narrative there is. There simply aren't any narratives about doping and world records about other cycling events, like track cycling. The fact that you gave us the original quote, and still say it's just generally about doping in the two sports makes me doubt your ability to comprehend plainly written English. Or if you can comprehend the distinction, then I wonder why pretend you don't.
casual obsever wrote:
Actually, what was the original statement? I thought, with my abilities (thank you for your insult, again), that this was about doping, and judging by your first response, so did you:
wtfunny wrote:
And yet, we have all kinds of evidence that shows cyclists were doping during that time. But we simply don't have anything like the same narrative in top tier running circles that came out of the cycling world.
rekrunner wrote:
It's not about doping, but that the doping stories of the "top tier" athletes from the two sports are completely different. In top-tier running narratives, we often get examples like Lombard and Hesch and Hellebuyck.
Maybe not a "top tier" runner that you're obsessed with, but you can't blow off someone like Lombard; national champion & Olympic qualifier. Goes on a program and cuts 3 minutes off his 10k time in 18 mos (30:33 - 27:33) for a ~10% improvement! ?
https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/i-took-epo-to-have-an-equal-chance-says-athlete-51094.html%3fampCoevett wrote:Isn't it a massive coincidence that the emergence of 'naturally superior' Kenyans and other Africans as a dominant force occurred exactly at the same moment in track history that the first real endurance enhancing drug became widely available?
I think you don't have great knowledge about the History of Athletics.
Before 1983 there were not WCh, and the only activity was OG and Commonwealth Games, so the odd years were without any stimulus, and was difficult to train without big competitions.
In 1980, Kenya boycotted Olympics. This means that the best Kenyan athletes, including Henry Rono, jumped from Commonwealth 1978 in Edmonton to Commonwealth 1982 in Brisbane, without any competition in the middle.
At that time, there was not yet good money in private meeting, and 80% of the activity of African athletes regarded institutional events only.
But probably you forgot something important.
In CG 1966 (Kingston), Kenyans won 3 Gold, two with Keino (Mile in 3'55"34 and 3 miles in 12'57"41 in front of the WR holder Ron Clarke), and one with Naftali Temu (6 miles in 27'14"21), destroying Clarke (27'39"42). This at sea level, without any specific advantage, like they had in OG 1968 in Mexico City, when won 1500m with Keino, 10000m with Temu and steeple with Amos Biwott, plus a lot of medal of other colour.
In 1970 (CW in Edinburgh), Kenyans started to win with sprinters too : Charles Asati won 400m in 45"01, while Ouko won 800m and Keino 1500. Something important happened in the Marathon : RON HILL (white, English and NOT DOPED) won in 2:09:28 (47 years ago !).
In 1972 (OG in Munchen), Kenyans won the relay 4x400m, steeple with Keino, and still had medals of other colour with Keino himself and Jipcho.
In 1974 (CG in Christchurch) we had an explosion of African runners. The star was Filbert Bayi from Tanzania, who destroyed the WR of Jim Ryun running in front from the first meter in 3'32"16, beating the best New Zealanders and Jipcho (3rd with 3'33"16). John Kipkurgat won 800m in 1'43"91 after a crazy split at 600m, which was the way of running for this incredible talent without any tactical clue. Two months after CG, Kipkurgat tried to beat the WR of Marcello Fiasconaro (1'43"7 in Milan in 1973) running the first 600m in... 1'13"2, for finishing walking !!!
In the same race, in Christchurch, Mike Boit won silver in 1'44"39, Ben Jipcho almost beated the WR of 5000m in 13'14"03 after winning steeple in 8'20"67, and Kenyan introduced the first woman of her athletic history (Sabina Chebichi, who won bronze in 800m with 2'02"61 when only 14).
Notable fact : IAN THOMPSON (white, English and NOT DOPED) won Marathon in 2:09:12 !!
Speaking about Ethiopian, who had a worse situation than Kenyans (Ethiopia boycotted 2 OG, in 1976 and 1984, and they didn't have Commonwealth Games, so practically no activity, plus a war with the neighborough Countries), we can remember the victories of Abebe Bikila in Marathon in OG 1960 an 1964, of Mamo Wolde (again Marathon) in OG 1968, and the first international competition of the one I consider, together Haile, Kenenisa and Henry Rono, the best long distance runner on track all-time : Miruts Yifter. Already old, Yifter had to wait 5 years (after Munchen, when he was 4th in 27'41" after an impact against the lapped Kenyan Moses at the bell) before competing again. The way he used for destroying everybody in both 5000m and 10000m in the World Cup of 1977 and 1979 was unbelievable, and in 1980, already 40 years old, he doubled the Gold in Moscow without any problem.
So, tell me, during all these years BEFORE the EPO era, in spite of boycotts and wars, the fact all these athletes won Gold medals, with some WR also (look at Kip Keino in 1965), does mean that the "dominance" was for English, or American, or athletes of other Countries ?
You don't have clue about the history of African Countries, and the situation they lived 40-30-20-10 years ago, and now.
You do the big mistakes to think their organization, the way of living, the supports they could have from the governments, were the same of European or American Countries.
At the end, you speak about something you don't know, and the final results is that your words are only a lot of stupidities.