LAGAT BUSTED!!!! - Kenya Daily Nation Article

drawers down... "tip" of the iceberg visible...

hmmmm...well, I really hope this is a mistake. Lagat is the first international superstar who I have seen run in real life. I saw him run a 3:55 indoor mile in Lincoln, Nebraska....it was the first sub 4 mile, indoor or outdoor, to be ran in the state of Nebraska. I also got to meet him and get two of his autographs when he appeared at the Nike Indoor Classic (a HS meet). In fact, I decided to finally frame that darn signed picture of Lagat. My point: as previously stated...I really hope this is a mistake...or some elaborate prank that a former fellow runner is pulling on all of us ;)

Didn't EPOrova also get a postive on the first test but the second came back clean? So I guess there is precedent on Legat potentially being cleared.

I stand by my original statement, tho. If you dope you deserve to get busted. Hopefully WADA will continue to put some teeth into the testing process. That way athletes can worry about training and not have to worry about who is doped and who is clean.

Control what you can and kick ass with your training and racing. Leave the druggies to WADA.

did it ever occur to you guys that lagat recently went on the juice? Maybe he was scared he couldnt keep up with ElG anymore. You can still love him for all the great races that he had while he was clean (since he has been tested before, what other conclusions can you drawn than he has recently started EPOing). People make mistakes, when the do, hopefully they get caught...

....

thats me waiting for all of the crazed drug finger pointers to jump on me, never look on the bright side fellas, live your life accusing others of saucin' and wondering why Lagat is still an assload better than you jerkoffs.

no-win situation wrote:

Zat0pek wrote:

Does anyone REALLY believe that is ONLY talent, training and courage?

Bottom line: If you REALLY want to be world class. . .then you have a choice to make.

Here's the deal: Performances have been ratcheting up for years, with a human genome that doesn't change, not in less than a few thousand years anyway, and training methods that haven't been materially different for 20-30 years now. So humans haven't somehow evolved in just a few decades, and neither has training to speak of. And you think those ratcheting performances across the board at the elite level are natural biology? Even with more Africans participating in the sport these days, it just doesn't stand to reason. The magnitude of the time drops of the last 10 years or so are just too great to be accounted for statistically by more participants.

Bull, there hasn't been an unprecedented improvement in the WR pace in the last 10years, the facts don't bear that out! In fact if you look at the WR pace for say the 5k you'll see that it has improved at the same steady rate since the 20s! If anything the present record is falling behind the trend line and we should be due for a further improvement soon. Looking at the trend line the expected value for the record for the 5k is about 12:36

Phil. wrote:

Bull, there hasn't been an unprecedented improvement in the WR pace in the last 10years, the facts don't bear that out!

Yes there has. You need to take a look at the records, instead of posting wildly. What a goof. The 5 and 10 have dropped at an incredible rate the last decade.

Ok I?m a nerd? Anyway, I was curious about the 5k and 10k world record progression from the 60?s to today. In both cases I graphed the progression ?pre-EPO,? did a linear fit and figured out what the records would be today. (If someone wants to do a more complicated fit please do, but right now I?m too tired)

I defined ?pre-EPO? for the 5k as 1972 Puttermans 13:13.0 up through 1987 Aouita 12:58.39. For the 10k I used 1965 Clarke 27:39.9 up through 1989 Barrios 27:08.23.

Predictions based on "pre-EPO" data:

For the 5k:

1995 12:49.26

2003 12:40.36

For the 10k:

1995 26:59.85

2003 26:48.25

So while the records set by Geb et al back in the mid 90?s were a bit fast? they are not too far off from where we should be today in 2003. (The big question is why did it take so long to break Aouita's 5k record?)

If anyone is interested the equations I used here they are (with x as the year and the time in seconds)

For the 5k:

time = -1.1128x + 2989.3

For the 10k

time = -1.4503x + 4513.2

EGOCENTRIC NATIONALISM ? Kevin Sullivan is from the same town - Brantford, Ontario, Canada - as Wayne Gretzky. He grew up on the same street as Gretzky.

Before brushing off Renato, I think the best thing to do is take a moment and think who you're talking about. Do you really know Athletics??? If so, you'd probably heard of Renato before. Everyone on the European circuit or who has something to do with running in Kenya knows who he is. If you think that this is just some Kenyan or fake using a pseudo name, you're dumber than you sound. Renato took the time to respond to what he feels is an attack not only on Bernard Lagat, but East African athletes and the sport in general. Hey, he's not an idiot and knows that there is drug use in the sport, but he wanted to point out that one can't just start accusing athletes of doping every time someone runs fast. And for many of this board, it seems this is when someone runs quicker than a 3'40 1500m.

Renato Canova is one of the world's most renowned coaches in distance running. Funny thing is, he isn't working with a lab or pushing some new performance enhancing products like we hear of in the US. He actually spends endless hours working on programs and at the track (be it near his home or in St. Moritz) with some of the best athletes in Athletics today. Some of these include Paul Kosgei (World Half Marathon Champ), John Korir (5th at WC 10km), Nicolas Kemboi (2nd at 5000m in Zurich), James Kwalia (World Junior Mile Record Holder) and several others.

If you are a true fan of the sport (and especially if you actually compete), I feel it would be worth your time and effort to listen to what he has to say, thus learning something from such a knowlegeable guy. Hey, maybe you can even exchange your views on training and improve your bp.

are you out of your mind?!? it's not possible to improve your bp without drugs!

Steve Lactic wrote:

. Hey, maybe you can even exchange your views on training and improve your bp.

That was obviously a typing error. I meant pb.

Does everyone need drugs to better their personal best?

What did you think I meant?

If you plot WR pace vs time the linear fit is very good over a long period (not my idea see fig 11.4 in Noakes), this is in fact what I did (although from 1908). Over that period the equation I got was

WRpace = 0.0108y + 5.487 (m/sec)

(y is years since 1900).

Only in the 70s did the pace get much ahead of the trend line, but dropped behind in the early 50s and early 90s.

But would you expect a linear fit??? I would expect diminishing returns, meaning you would get an asymtotic (sp?) improvement curve approaching but never reaching some point beyond what we can reach. So you need to try fitting a more complex equation with more data points.

Yes, that was me. Lifetime mileage isn't bullshit -- I reasoned Lagat's excelent performance off of his lifetime total volume.But it looks like there wre other factors at work.

Dutra wrote:

trackhead wrote:

Absolutely. Those are not superhuman performances. Go out at 15k pace for 5k and then turn it on to a true 5k effort. These guys are just very very good.

Trackhead - weren't you the guy who, when it was mentioned that Lagat 'only' trained 60 mpw or so, came back with some bullshit about he can get away with it because of your lifetime miles theory?

mlk wrote:You're spot on, which is why there has been virtually no comment on what you have said from most of the afrophobic folk who frequent this board.

Bunk. I can't speak for everyone else, but in my book NO ONE at the top is above suspicion, be they American or Kenyan. If there is any racism, it is those that don't want to question the Africans because it would be politically incorrect.

Watch these runners after the finish. They cross the finish line after setting a PR, take three steps, and carry on a conversation like they just rolled out of bed. The agents should coach them on how to look tired, breath hard, put their hands on their knees, and roll their eyes around. The 1500m had no clean athletes in the finals.

Athletes who are in peak form recuperate quickly. If you yourself are an athlete or have compete, I'm sure it's happened that you've been surprised or realized at times how quickly you're able to start the next interval or how you after a competition how quickly you recovered.

Remember, these guys are professional athletes and train at least two times a day on the off season and are used to it.

They also have the possibility to rest all day and sleep between their workouts, not like the rest of us who have to work the entire day and then run home from the office.

It's athletes who aren't in form that lay on the track or puke in their shoes. This can also happen to professional athletes, but when they're not in shape.

Also referring to your comment about the agents. There are those who work with over 80 to 100 athletes. Do you think the agents know or are in charge of providing drugs for all these people? I am the first to admit that, of course, there are agents who help dope their athletes, but this is not mainstream and primarily doping is a problem with individual athletes and his/her choice to take drugs, or/and their coach (or some other closely related person) who may influence them.

As for those of you who think all the athletes at the top are drugged, if you spent time with them and watched how their careers go up and down (or steadily improve) you'd realize this is nowhere near being the case. Look at the 800m for example; most of the athletes who run this event at the highest level have been around for years or are constantly fighting to gain a tenth or so on their rival. There aren't many who improve by "leaps and bounds."

That is running 1'48" the first year on the circuit and then running 1'42" the next.

I know for certain that most of these guys take out-of-competition tests or voluntarily give there whereabouts to the anti-doping department of the IAAF, ona regular basis, so that the testers can drop by when they want to, to make a surprise test. This goes for during and after the summer season.

Seeing the amount cases that come up I understand that many of you lose faith in the sport at times or want to bag it, but knowing personally many of the top athletes and the fact that they are clean, I hate to see them be generically classified and accused as "doped"...for example, your comment of all finalists in the 1500m not being clean...Well, if your image of the sport has reached that low then you might as well follow curling.

Let\'s wait till the B sample result before crucifying the poor guy.... Sounds like everyone wants a hanging

WTF,yes,indeed:

Dieter Baumann (b. 1965)

1982 15:42,96 (4:03/8:36)

1983 14:40,4 (3:49/8:16)

1984 14:21,54 (3:50/8:06)

1985 13:48,00 (3:43/7:51)

1986 13:35,04 (3:36/7:51)

1987 13:30,89 (3:33/7:40)

1988 13:15,52 (3:35/7:50)

in 1988 he made the transition from 1500m to the 5000m, so that explains the 15s (the 7:40 being a clear indication he could run faster than 13:30)

1989 13:18,36

1990 -

1991 13:24,58

1992 13:09,03

1994 13:12,46

1995 13:01,72

1996 13:08,81

1997 12:54,70

1998 13:04,10

1999 13:02,63

2000 13:13,83

2001 -

2002 13:07,40

2003 13:15,68

Haile had bigger jumps (12s from 12:56 to 12:44)

Greetings Atanvarno

BTW, Dieter and Saidi-Sief were busted for Nandrolon. Someone still has to explain to me how distance runners profit from using nandrolon.