JG was never doubting GG.
He was simply asking, "Why was this race so fast?" Fair question, but luckily GG will have plenty of races this year to prove it wasn't an anomoly.
Anyway, I'll be watching GG's 100m tomorrow in Brisbane. Conditions are warm, but I don't think he will have a favourable tail wind like he did in Sydney.
LetsRun.com co-founder Robert Johnson has written a deep dive on Gout Gout's 19.67.
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Reddy! wrote:
JG was never doubting GG.
He was simply asking, "Why was this race so fast?" Fair question, but luckily GG will have plenty of races this year to prove it wasn't an anomoly.
Anyway, I'll be watching GG's 100m tomorrow in Brisbane. Conditions are warm, but I don't think he will have a favourable tail wind like he did in Sydney.
....rojo's article about unicorn conditions is also nonsense.
He quotes journalists who speculate about 'swirling winds' without reference to readings or observations. Notwithstanding the fact that a speculative 'tailwind on bend' and a 1.7m/s tailwind on straight could not both occur at same time as a NNW prevailing wind.'
Then,, the 1.7m/s tailwind itself is not Unicorn, it would happen several times at 200m races. It is a normal legal sub 2m/s wind.
Why don't you look at obervations, whilst also asking witnesses that were on that bend?
56 -
Armstronglivs wrote:
Karma Police wrote:
Yes.
2nd had an old PB and had a big jump in 400 times this year. Maybe he had a good 12 months of uninterrupted prep leading in.
4th I know - he has focussed more on the 2000 than the 100 this year and has run a 100 PB this year too.
National race, tapered athletes, great conditions, they know it will be quick and all go for it - not hard to believe at all. You realise athletes aim to peak at the nationals in Australia, right?
Aiming to peak doesn't typically produce a whole field of personal bests or we would see that at every championship. We don't.
Thanks for cherry picking one part and mis-stating it - tapering plus great conditions plus a new fast track - plus them all knowing it'll be quick
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I am Sam wrote:
Karma Police wrote:
I know thee track very well - in summer in Sydney, when it's warm, you get an afternoon nor-easter, perfect 200 conditions. The straight runs north-south and the stadium is on the west off the straight, so the wind from the NE is unobstructed.
I actually looked at thee weather that day just after the rest - you're right the wind was a prevailing NW or N, but Aidan Murphy said in an interview on set he could feel it behind him, after being in their face when getting down on to the blocks.
The wind does swirl a bit in that stadium too.
It could have died a bit as they hit the straight and the wind gauge measured it.
This (nice wind on the bend) plus a bunch of athletes being in good form and peaking on a brand new fast track - it's perfectly believable.
Where were you and rojo sitting? I could have said hi.
The wind last Sunday was not a typical summer wind, nor is it even summer, nor was it warm.
There was a very cool NNW wind all day, very constant across the whole City as the Bureau observations confirm, and this was felt on that bend at the time. The stadium is not a 'bowl' and the gap to the bend at end of stand is totally open.
The times are fast 'despite' that wind, not because of it. Look at GG's splits too. Versus Bolt's WR 200m the splits were as follows:
Bolt 9.92 (100m), 9.27 (200m)
Gout 10.43 (100m), 9.24 (200m) . GG has run the first 100m of a 200m faster than that before.
Lastly, you are implying that the wind magically turned (made tow U turns) within seconds first to behind them on bend then behind on straight, almost God like. For the record...no that was not felt in the gap.
The stats above do not support a bend tailwind
cheers
Sam you already posted this.
I was not there (I was in Sydney though) and as I said BOM said it was a NW wind. It is logical to think there was a tailwind on the bend though. The comment from 4th (to my son) was it must have been a good tailwind on the bend, otherwise how can everyone have run so fast. He did not feel a headwind.
Aidan Murphy in an interview at on your marks it was in his face, and on set it felt behind him.
I think we can trust what they said, don't you think?
70 -
This is an important bit of specific evidence. I appreciate the research people have done
on weather conditions prevailing in Sydney, but they reflect general weather
conditions recorded at weather stations some miles away. What is crucial is
what happened at that moment, at that track. Gusts can pick up and change direction,
if only temporality. Most of the other 200s were not particularly fast,
reflecting conditions far closer to neutral, i.e. a moderate NW wind. But something
unusual seems to have happened with this race. A couple of hours prior Gout ran
his prelim, and it was half a second slower. And he appeared to run quite hard.
But I agree, he will have to back it up to be taken as a serious contender in
the future.
I have an additional thought bubble to add here (bear with me, nerdy content ahead!) The mammoth in the room here is the arguably flawed way wind is measured in the 200. Amongst track events, the 200 is seemingly alone in this respect. (But correct me if you can
think of other examples). Athletes running the 200 run through a 270-degree arc. To break it down, the average direction they run in during the bend is perpendicular (90 degrees) to the straightway - well it is for lane 1 at least. More like 70 degrees or so for lane 8. One could work all this out mathematically. But my point here is that wind is only measured as a vector down the straight. This does not reflect the average direction that the athletes run in during a 200. Thus, the current measurement protocol can be kind of ‘cheated’ by certain
kinds of conditions i.e. an above legal diagonal wind from the right quarter. Such conditions would be unusual, but hardly ‘unicorn,’ especially for some tracks where that is a common weather pattern. So my idea would be to suggest a change in the way wind is measured for the 200: set the gauge at a little less than 45 degrees to the straight. This would reflect the average direction the athletes run in and take into account lane 1-8 directional differences. I would guess that if measured this way, Sunday’s race might have registered something that
was not legal.
Maybe this is impractical, but I can’t see why it would be. While the 200 is seemingly alone
in this respect, some other field events can also be greatly affected by certain kinds of wind conditions. For example, the discus can be greatly affected by wind from a certain quarter. Discus!70 -
He's running junior nationals this weekend so we'll see what he's got over 100.
20 -
Distant observer wrote:
This is an important bit of specific evidence. I appreciate the research people have done
on weather conditions prevailing in Sydney, but they reflect general weather
conditions recorded at weather stationssome milesone mile away. What is crucial is
what happened at that moment, at that track. Gusts can pick up and change direction,
if only temporality. Most of the other 200s were not particularly fast,
reflecting conditions far closer to neutral, i.e. a moderate NW wind. But something
unusual seems to have happened with this race. A couple of hours prior Gout ran
his prelim, and it was half a second slower. And he appeared to run quite hard.
But I agree, he will have to back it up to be taken as a serious contender in
the future.
I have an additional thought bubble to add here (bear with me, nerdy content ahead!) The mammoth in the room here is the arguably flawed way wind is measured in the 200. Amongst track events, the 200 is seemingly alone in this respect. (But correct me if you can
think of other examples). Athletes running the 200 run through a 270-degree arc. To break it down, the average direction they run in during the bend is perpendicular (90 degrees) to the straightway - well it is for lane 1 at least. More like 70 degrees or so for lane 8. One could work all this out mathematically. But my point here is that wind is only measured as a vector down the straight. This does not reflect the average direction that the athletes run in during a 200. Thus, the current measurement protocol can be kind of ‘cheated’ by certain
kinds of conditions i.e. an above legal diagonal wind from the right quarter. Such conditions would be unusual, but hardly ‘unicorn,’ especially for some tracks where that is a common weather pattern. So my idea would be to suggest a change in the way wind is measured for the 200: set the gauge at a little less than 45 degrees to the straight. This would reflect the average direction the athletes run in and take into account lane 1-8 directional differences. I would guess that if measured this way, Sunday’s race might have registered something that
was not legal.
Maybe this is impractical, but I can’t see why it would be. While the 200 is seemingly alone
in this respect, some other field events can also be greatly affected by certain kinds of wind conditions. For example, the discus can be greatly affected by wind from a certain quarter. Discus!The fact that you are 'Distant Observer' and I have already stated I was a "Close Observer', should be all. The rest is speculation.
The weather station is one mile due north, specifically 1.88km to the 200m start. That weather station never recorded anything other than W to NNW the entire afternoon. In fact the whole of the Sydney metropolitan likewise.
Now people are trying to speculate, based on nothing other than the times recorded, that the wind 'must have' suddenly been SE, for only 10 sec though, then a 1.7m/s component as N. Crazy
Gout's splits also do not support or call for such a scenario.
Isn't it enough to just say that a fast race enabled most to run faster than they ever have at a time when they were peaked for such an occasion?
60 -
Karma Police wrote:
I am Sam wrote:
Where were you and rojo sitting? I could have said hi.
The wind last Sunday was not a typical summer wind, nor is it even summer, nor was it warm.
There was a very cool NNW wind all day, very constant across the whole City as the Bureau observations confirm, and this was felt on that bend at the time. The stadium is not a 'bowl' and the gap to the bend at end of stand is totally open.
The times are fast 'despite' that wind, not because of it. Look at GG's splits too. Versus Bolt's WR 200m the splits were as follows:
Bolt 9.92 (100m), 9.27 (200m)
Gout 10.43 (100m), 9.24 (200m) . GG has run the first 100m of a 200m faster than that before.
Lastly, you are implying that the wind magically turned (made tow U turns) within seconds first to behind them on bend then behind on straight, almost God like. For the record...no that was not felt in the gap.
The stats above do not support a bend tailwind
cheers
Sam you already posted this.
I was not there (I was in Sydney though) and as I said BOM said it was a NW wind. It is logical to think there was a tailwind on the bend though. The comment from 4th (to my son) was it must have been a good tailwind on the bend, otherwise how can everyone have run so fast. He did not feel a headwind.
Aidan Murphy in an interview at on your marks it was in his face, and on set it felt behind him.
I think we can trust what they said, don't you think?
You know why eye witnesses are terrible in court cases? Their perceptions outweigh their own eye observations, much more so with other senses. It is never better than logic and facts.
In any case, Murphy would have you believe that in a largely open arena, while 'on his marks' the wind was exactly as it was the entire day throughout Sydney , especially at Olympic Park, i.e. 5m/s NW. Then suddenly for exactly 10 seconds, it turned completely around from NW to SE ....and at that moment 10 seconds later, it reverted back to the 5m/s NW (with a 1.7m/s component measured in stand protected straight).
Anyway, as I said, they ran fast. GG's splits are consistent with the wind direction and his time consistent with previous times, when wind is taken into account. The fact that the others ran faster than before is more likely due to the circumstance of a fast race
cheers
61 -
Wind is only one possible factor.
Timing is another. Timing is not infallible, and human pride has in the past gotten in the way of admitting error. Other factors have gotten in the way of admitting fraud.
Coincidence is the only other possibility. Everybody might have run big PB’s.
It could be a combo of all 3 factors—wind, timing, and coincidence.
The most reasonable thing to do is to keep an open mind, and wait to see what future results suggest happened in this race.
Bottom line is that we now look forward to more racing!💪
31 -
10.19(0.3) by Gout Gout in the U20s. Semis and finals tomorrow. I think the Final is about 12:20am ET. As for his 200m run, it may have been wind aided but i believe that he can achieve it anyways. He was likely at 19.8/9 shape last year if he had caught a good wind at the right time. He ran 19.84(+2.2), 20.10(-1.9), 20.02(0.0) in 2025.
40 -
UkrainianHunk wrote:
10.19(0.3) by Gout Gout in the U20s. Semis and finals tomorrow. I think the Final is about 12:20am ET. As for his 200m run, it may have been wind aided but i believe that he can achieve it anyways. He was likely at 19.8/9 shape last year if he had caught a good wind at the right time. He ran 19.84(+2.2), 20.10(-1.9), 20.02(0.0) in 2025.
All of this is great running by Gout - from last week at the senior champs to this now.
And yet putting the times aside the biggest question still remains. When he gets into a race outside of Australia vs deep, world class fields where he isn't a lock to win (like he is vs 17-18 year olds or Australian domestic athletes) can he hold it together, or does he go "yard sale" like we have seen previously where he tries so hard it looks like an arm or a leg could unbolt itself (no pun intended) and go flying off into the front row of the bleachers?
Can't wait to see him in action in Europe later this season (where you would expect the world 200m leader to be racing, right?)
This post was edited 21 seconds after it was posted.61 -
UkrainianHunk wrote:
He was likely at 19.8/9 shape last year if he had caught a good wind at the right time. He ran 19.84(+2.2), 20.10(-1.9), 20.02(0.0) in 2025.
Totally agree with this 👍, as well as with the suggestion that he is likely to be a bit faster this season, if uninjured. 19.75-19.85 is my guess, and maybe substantially better in a huge race.
idk where it is, but many years ago I did a thread on young 200m wonders who absolutely hit it out of the park one time. There are many, iirc, guys like the X-man.
Hopefully this 19.67 won’t represent Gout’s zenith.
20 -
I am Sam wrote:
Distant observer wrote:
This is an important bit of specific evidence. I appreciate the research people have done
on weather conditions prevailing in Sydney, but they reflect general weather
conditions recorded at weather stationssome milesone mile away. What is crucial is
what happened at that moment, at that track. Gusts can pick up and change direction,
if only temporality. Most of the other 200s were not particularly fast,
reflecting conditions far closer to neutral, i.e. a moderate NW wind. But something
unusual seems to have happened with this race. A couple of hours prior Gout ran
his prelim, and it was half a second slower. And he appeared to run quite hard.
But I agree, he will have to back it up to be taken as a serious contender in
the future.
I have an additional thought bubble to add here (bear with me, nerdy content ahead!) The mammoth in the room here is the arguably flawed way wind is measured in the 200. Amongst track events, the 200 is seemingly alone in this respect. (But correct me if you can
think of other examples). Athletes running the 200 run through a 270-degree arc. To break it down, the average direction they run in during the bend is perpendicular (90 degrees) to the straightway - well it is for lane 1 at least. More like 70 degrees or so for lane 8. One could work all this out mathematically. But my point here is that wind is only measured as a vector down the straight. This does not reflect the average direction that the athletes run in during a 200. Thus, the current measurement protocol can be kind of ‘cheated’ by certain
kinds of conditions i.e. an above legal diagonal wind from the right quarter. Such conditions would be unusual, but hardly ‘unicorn,’ especially for some tracks where that is a common weather pattern. So my idea would be to suggest a change in the way wind is measured for the 200: set the gauge at a little less than 45 degrees to the straight. This would reflect the average direction the athletes run in and take into account lane 1-8 directional differences. I would guess that if measured this way, Sunday’s race might have registered something that
was not legal.
Maybe this is impractical, but I can’t see why it would be. While the 200 is seemingly alone
in this respect, some other field events can also be greatly affected by certain kinds of wind conditions. For example, the discus can be greatly affected by wind from a certain quarter. Discus!The fact that you are 'Distant Observer' and I have already stated I was a "Close Observer', should be all. The rest is speculation.
The weather station is one mile due north, specifically 1.88km to the 200m start. That weather station never recorded anything other than W to NNW the entire afternoon. In fact the whole of the Sydney metropolitan likewise.
Now people are trying to speculate, based on nothing other than the times recorded, that the wind 'must have' suddenly been SE, for only 10 sec though, then a 1.7m/s component as N. Crazy
Gout's splits also do not support or call for such a scenario.
Isn't it enough to just say that a fast race enabled most to run faster than they ever have at a time when they were peaked for such an occasion?
If you look at the triple jump results for example you'll see that the wind varied between -1.3 and + 7.1 which seems to indicate that the wind at the venue was switching around significantly.
90 -
I am Sam wrote:
Reddy! wrote:
JG was never doubting GG.
He was simply asking, "Why was this race so fast?" Fair question, but luckily GG will have plenty of races this year to prove it wasn't an anomoly.
Anyway, I'll be watching GG's 100m tomorrow in Brisbane. Conditions are warm, but I don't think he will have a favourable tail wind like he did in Sydney.
....rojo's article about unicorn conditions is also nonsense.
He quotes journalists who speculate about 'swirling winds' without reference to readings or observations. Notwithstanding the fact that a speculative 'tailwind on bend' and a 1.7m/s tailwind on straight could not both occur at same time as a NNW prevailing wind.'
Then,, the 1.7m/s tailwind itself is not Unicorn, it would happen several times at 200m races. It is a normal legal sub 2m/s wind.
Why don't you look at obervations, whilst also asking witnesses that were on that bend?
Do you think drugs could be more than equivalent to a strong tail wind - that no one seems to be able to find?
110 -
Smith and Lewis in the 19.7's, Lemaitre at 19.80...imo it's possible to go 19.67 cleanly. And if anyone can do it, it's a guy like Gout--long, thin, knee lift, low contact time, consistent sprint form over 200m, not exhausted from an over-wrought first 50m, young.
42 -
Not the Boston Walkathon.
11 -
Its me ascii only wrote:
Smith and Lewis in the 19.7's, Lemaitre at 19.80...imo it's possible to go 19.67 cleanly. And if anyone can do it, it's a guy like Gout--long, thin, knee lift, low contact time, consistent sprint form over 200m, not exhausted from an over-wrought first 50m, young.
Also young Bolt at 19.93
10 -
Its me ascii only wrote:
Smith and Lewis in the 19.7's, Lemaitre at 19.80...imo it's possible to go 19.67 cleanly. And if anyone can do it, it's a guy like Gout--long, thin, knee lift, low contact time, consistent sprint form over 200m, not exhausted from an over-wrought first 50m, young.
You miss the point of the thread. Virtually the entire field pr'd. They are all clean?
27 -
I didn’t miss the point at all.
Your point, however, I can’t make sense of. care to elaborate/reformulate?
19.67 by a guy like Gout, considering all the other times, the event, etc is believable to me to be clean. Not saying it is, just that it is believable. Again, I could see him at 19.75-19.85 this season. Neither do such a time, nor does his progression, indicate use to me.
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