DIII Runner Not Going to Nationals Because of Clerical Mistake by His Coach

Remember that a lack of (economic) competition allows the NCAA to behave in this manner, to enforce arbitrary inflexible rules. I promise you they would change their tune very quickly if they were worried about their little monopoly being challenged.

I too was forced to sit out my big race back in the day (although due to untimely injury), so I feel for you.

god forbid anyone enforce rules.

I got a traffic ticket recently. I went to the courthouse, made a case for myself and got the charge dismissed, because fortunately the courts recognize that every case has unique circumstances, and sometimes those circumstances warrant individual attention by intelligent people, like a judge.

What if there were no system for traffic tickets? Not every case is open-and-shut guilty. What if cops pulled whoever they wanted and there was no recourse at all? If you got pulled rightly or wrongly, you are automatically screwed. This is the situation Nick is in. A mistake was made, there was plenty of time for an exception to be made to correct the error.

The IRS made a mistake with my taxes a few years ago and said I owed more. I sat down with them, made a case, and they agreed that I paid the proper amount and the mistake was theirs. What if they hadn't agreed to sit down with me and just garnished my wages forever?

If sick bloated bureaucracies like the courts and the IRS can make the time to work things out with people, the NCAA surely can too. It is their responsibility to provide a way to deal with the exceptions, to do the right thing at the right time. They have chosen not to because they have never really faced the glare of the spotlight.

The NCAA didn't make the mistake. It's not their fault. They don't need to fix it.

The IRS made a mistake, you called them on it, they fixed it.

You made a mistake while driving, you fixed it.

Nick was entered into the meet. His coach made a "mistake" that he only noticed after entries were done. Open. Shut. Pay attention when you do something important.

Here's the thing. His coach missed SEVERAL mistakes along the way. I mean, if you got this and still messed it up, you're screwed!

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ENTERED

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NICK END 5000 METER RUN 14:45.10

NOT ENTERED

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NICK END 10000 METER RUN 30:38.13

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How can you, as a judge, fair and impartial, say oh clearly he made a mistake and should be in? You can't. Ignorance doesn't exclude you from the law.

[quote]oog wrote:

once again though, if you can't see how this scenario would be used by less scrupulous coaches then you'll never get the reasons why the NCAA did the right thing.

Nick, get over it man. The NCAA doesn't have to take responsibility for your coaches mistake.

It's sad that there was a mistake. It's sad that your coach apparently wasn't paying enough attention when he did the entries. Sad stuff happens everyday.[/quote

Very well put oog. Most of the people on here just don't get it. They have no idea why the NCAA can't just "let Nick into the race" and why there would be future implications that would result if they just let him in the meet. What I find interesting is that someone was saying how complicated the declaration process is. If it is so complicated, why did the 100's of other coaches get it right. I feel terrible for Nick, but you just can't change the rules because one coach didn't get it right. Coaches know the rules and that is why you double and triple check everything. Pretty much everyone on here that is upset is not a coach and has no idea of how the whole system works. The majority of the coaches that know about this situation understand the logic behind the NCAA declaration process and why they did not let Nick in and they are even more motivated to make sure they follow the rules in the future.

oog wrote:

The NCAA didn't make the mistake. It's not their fault. They don't need to fix it.

Sometimes, when you are in a position of authority, you are given the opportunity to fix a mistake someone else made. In most situations, it's a damn good thing to do that, no matter who screwed up.

I am copying a quote from Run-insight because this really explains well why you can't just let Nick in the race. This was very well said.

"I think its not so simple for the NCAA as some people would like to believe. We are all prone to believe Nick's story because he is a fellow runner and we think his situation sucks. However, we have no hard evidence that what he says is true any more than the NCAA does. Maybe Nick and his coach really decided to only enter the 5k because the 10k was first and he didn't think he could pull the double. After declaring the 5k and scratching the 10k, he found out he didn't make it. Oh no, now how could I possibly get back in the meet in the 10k, which I would have made had I declared? I know, call it a clerical mistake and appeal. Use the public to help my case, other runners will sympathize with my situation. Or maybe Nick's coach really did just make a mistake but didn't figure it out until way too late. Maybe to cover his ass he told Nick that he figured it out right away and tried to change it but the big, bad NCAA is taking away his opportunity to compete. We should sick the Letsrun and Run-Insight crowds on those heartless bastards. Then the focus is not on the coach, who really screwed up, but on the NCAA as the institution, the Man.

Now, I'm not saying this is what happened, but who are we to know? Who is the NCAA to know? Should the NCAA just take everybody's word for it? If they do then other coaches would know that all they had to do what make up a clerical mistake story and they could change their declarations. Maybe I'm going for the team win and one of my studs is on the list in 4 events. Thinking he is way to far down on one to get in, I declare him in only three. Come to find out, 4 people are injured and 3 others don't declare that event for whatever reason and he actually would have made the cut. I remember them letting that kid Nick End in on some clerical mistake story. I think I'll call the NCAA and do the same thing. If they don't let my kid in also, they can now be sued.

Again, I think Nick got the shaft. He should have been in the race because he ran fast enough at Raleigh (a race I watched him run) to make it in. However, his coach screwed him. As a coach who has had to declare athletes for regionals and NCAA's, I don't see how you could not take every single precaution that you declare correctly. Regardless of if the website you do it on is crappy or not, you MUST as a coach make sure it is correct. "

I have defeated 5 of my last 7 tickets this way and others.

Good Form.

Just as it is possible for the crazy hypothetical, it is just as easy to believe what he is saying. I think the case to be made is these things should be looked at on an individual basis. If you look at it logically, he knew he would not get in the 5k. Why would you run an early season 10k, be ranked that high on the list, and not declare in it if it is the only way you are going? There has been no past abuse by CM trying to sneak in athletes or play dirty games. It is an unfortunate circumstance, what I fail to see is why people insist on sticking up for the NCAA. There are flaws in almost any system... this is bringing out a flaw in the NCAA because they are prone by their size and 'infinite' wisdom to not be flexible for every situation that arises.

As for the great quote... I think a lot of that is dog shit. In contacting letsrun etc, he spelled out his case. This was not his first course for action. He went through all the channels he could. Why not come to those who would feel his pain? Nick's main goal was to get in the race. Just as I would go out and train my ass off to run fast enough, I would plead, beg, borrow, argue, do many things to get into a race I felt I deserved to. No one is shifting the blame, but at this point in time there is really no reason to sit around and point fingers at his coach. His coach is human, made a mistake, realized it, and tried to correct it. That is history, can not be changed. What CAN BE CHANGED is Nick being included into the meet, as it has not been run yet.

Sitting around saying it is just trying to shift the blame is plain hogwash. What happens when someone is injured, or placed in a life threating situation? People dont sit around and say, well, we shouldnt go to the hospital, because they didnt inflict the wound, that is just shifting the blame.

Almost everyone would be outraged if they showed up to the hospital to get treatment, and got turned away because the hospital was not responsible for their injury.

Obviously the NCAA and a hospital are not exactly the same, but both are there to serve paying customers. In this case I do not think the NCAA would be harming any other competitors any more than they are harming Nick by letting him into the race.

It is a race, there are not thousands and millions of dollars in TV bowl appearances to be won by one school or another. CM will not start dominating unfairly because of him racing. All the man wants to do is jump on a hard rubber track with some light shoes with pointed metal on and run a few laps (which I feel he has a right to do).

[quote]Carnivore 69 wrote:

I got a traffic ticket recently. I went to the courthouse, made a case for myself and got the charge dismissed, because fortunately the courts recognize that every case has unique circumstances, and sometimes those circumstances warrant individual attention by intelligent people, like a judge.quote]

More often than not, if someone is caught for speeding, they are breaking the law. My guess is that you were breaking the law, didn't feel like paying the ticket and went to court and got off of on some technicality. At least that is what is happening more often than not in cases like this. Just because someone may get off from paying the ticket, it doesn't mean it is right. This is not how we should want the NCAA to treat their championships. Sorry, but your analogy doesn't work.

Irb, that's great. There was almost nothing of value in your post. You restated the obvious, and then restated the common opinion.

The race is over.

Comparing it to a major injury is absurd on all levels. Getting your ticket chopped because of a technicality, brilliant. Did you break the law? Just because you got off with no penalty doesn't change the fact you broke the law.

Sadly, coaches screw stuff up every year. This is just the first time someone has come on letsrun to whine about it.

I'm tired of it. "he would have been all-american" He was third in his conference meet with 31:43. He lost to two guys who didn't qualify in anything!

The race is over. I'm glad to see that so many people on letsrun can actually be sympathetic here. But the point remains, this could be a concocted story. They could be lying, you can't prove they aren't. He didn't declare for the 10. His coach wasn't in the hospital. They weren't stuck in an airport someplace. They entered the meet just like everyone else, they may have made a mistake, but the truth is, you can't be sure they didn't intend to all along.

It sucks. As someone said before, GET OVER IT.

Actually it was for Failure To Obey A Traffic Control Device (Running a Red Light). The cop who pulled me was in the courtroom to testify. After he told the judge what he saw, I was given the opportunity to cross-examine him. I asked him one question; "What color was the light when I went through the intersection?" He said green. The judge couldn't believe he gave a ticket out for going through an intersection on a green light and dismissed the case. Had he said Red, I had videotaped evidence to prove that this would have been impossible given the light cycle of this particular intersection.

People make mistakes. This mistake was the cop's fault, but I wasn't angry at him because I was given a chance to make things right. This particular judge sees hundreds of traffic cases each month (exceptions), and yet he still honestly and impartially takes a close look at each one. There are cracks in the system, there are extenuating circumstances, there are situations not covered by the law that require a case-by-case analysis.

Should the NCAA take the time to carefully review its hundreds of cases a year in the name of doing the right thing? Yes. Does it? No. The scratch in the 10K meant nobody would have been put out by including Nick in the race.

If making exceptions means opening a huge can of worms, then I say: Open the can anyway, and deal with each worm one at a time.

In your case, you didn't really run the red light. Okay, case closed. In this case, the coach DID scratch his athlete from the meet. That is what people keep forgeting. Yes it was a mistake. I ran a red light once by mistake, but I didn't fight the ticket because I was wrong. His coach made a mistake, didn't follow the very clearly laid out rules of declaration, and his athlete has to suffer. It sucks and I feel horrible for Nick. But the bottom line is he was SCRATCHED from the meet in the 10k. He was SCRATCHED. Get it everyone. It sucks, but that is what happened.

I don't see the reason all of this cynicism. When you say "we can't say believe that Nick isn't lying," you display a shockingly low opinion for athletes and portray Nick in an unfair light. Innocent until proven guilty, so employ another cliche into this already cliched-out thread.

My opinion: the NCAA, as it is, probably should not have let Nick into the meet. However, this is because of deep flaws in the organization that won't change in a week. Letting Nick in would have been a bad precedent for their current laws, and maybe would have actually detrimental consequences in the future. The current laws, though, are bad, since they have punished someone that they did not intend to punish. So the remedy would be to change the laws for future years, not to hastily break them right now and patch up later. Perhaps.

Viva la revolucion!

This is the same organization who just punished Kelvin Sampson for recruiting violations at Oklahoma State. The new coach of IU ran up against the NCAA for making illegal recruiting calls. His punishment? He can't MAKE calls to recruits for one year. Can he text message the recruit, yes. Can he text the recruit and have them call him, yes. Can he have some else call the recruit then join the conversation, yes. (heard this on ESPN) And people wonder why others are pissed they wouldn't let Nick into the race.

[quote]Uh... wrote:

I don't see the reason all of this cynicism. When you say "we can't say believe that Nick isn't lying," you display a shockingly low opinion for athletes and portray Nick in an unfair light. quote]

I don't think too many people, if any, think even for a second that Nick is lying, there are just people that are showing how it is not as open and shut of a case as some of you want it to be. There is a declaration process that needs to be followed, there is a reason for the declaration process which many on here can't seem to grasp, a mistake was made on the declaration process and the end result is that Nick won't get to run. Every other coach in DIII figured out the declaration process so it is obviously not that complicated as some seem to think. It happened. The NCAA did nothing wrong and Nick did nothing wrong. Unfortunately his coach did, but everyone wants to fault the NCAA. Everyone wants the declaration system changed, which most of the posters don't really even know what the exact process is or why they have it. There needs to be a declaration process and it will continue. The way to keep this from happening again? Do the declaration process properly and don't scratch your athlete from the meet and then try to get him in after the declaration process is over.

f***, run D1 then your coach wont "forget". It just to happens that you probably blow!

I'm walking down the street and I see a man lying in the road, having been hit by a car. Every day hundreds of people walk down this street without gettin hurt...clearly, this individual was too stupid to walk down a street without getting hit. It not my fault he was hit. I was around the corner and didn't even see it. Maybe he's just faking for the insurance money. I keep walking and push the sight out of my mind.

willie sutton wrote:

I'm walking down the street and I see a man lying in the road, having been hit by a car. Every day hundreds of people walk down this street without gettin hurt...clearly, this individual was too stupid to walk down a street without getting hit. It not my fault he was hit. I was around the corner and didn't even see it. Maybe he's just faking for the insurance money. I keep walking and push the sight out of my mind.

Your "analogy" leaves a lot to be desired and if you think the two situations are even remotely similar, you have a bigger problem than just walking past a guy lying in the road. First of all, you have no idea if the driver was at fault or the pedestrian. Second of all, this is potentially a life and death situation, an NCAA track meet is not, even though some people make sadly argue with that. Third, you had nothing to do with setting up the rules with this guy about how to walk down the street, like the NCAA did with all of the coaches before the meet. I could go on and on, but I think you get the point about how silly your analogy is.