Katir stays HOT - 7:27.64 Spanish national record for 3000.

Armstronglivs wrote:

no contest wrote:

Thrice obviously was correct, impossible to have a serious discussion with you . Changing what someone has written, the only way for you to "survive".

I see you have something in common with Thrice - but it isnt flattering. I haven't changed what you wrote. I indicated through alternative examples (which you also had previously presented) your reasoning has no sound basis to it. A serious discussion requires a serious point. You have failed to present one. Yet you duck mine, which is why would 3.36 to 3.28 in a year be clean but not the same rate of improvement from say 3.34 to 3.26 in either Katir or another athlete. No one who seriously follows the sport would buy it, yet the apologists for Katir - like you - remain in force here.

You have changed what I have written. You have said improving by 8 seconds is the same, regardless if starting at 3:36 or at 3:32. Complete nonsense. I have not defended Katir. Thrice was correct, as is to see in many threads.

I feel like there are a lot of inane links to Moroccan stereotypes here. He moved at age 5 and doesn’t seem to have any links to the national program there which facilitated doping. Moreover, Morocco now STINKS as far as 1500 and up aside from El Bakkali. If they’re full fledged doping to get 3:34 guys yikes. You can judge him on Spain for sure, his manager has represented (unashamedly) dopers before and the country has some history of systematic doping. That does seem to be a good years back and again they don’t exactly have a stable at the moment of studs. His improvement is huge and warrants suspicion but the North African thing isn’t worthy of all this discussion.

Ahizoune would do anything, says Benzraigenat, to ensure that Moroccan athletes would always show up clean at competitions abroad - regardless of whether the athletes had doped before. "The Moroccan federation does it this way: it carries out doping tests before international competitions. And if someone is doped, they take him off the squad and say: "You take a break so that you don't get blown out of international control". Athletes would not need to fear suspension neither.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I feel like there are a lot of inane links to Moroccan stereotypes here. He moved at age 5 and doesn’t seem to have any links to the national program there which facilitated doping. Moreover, Morocco now STINKS as far as 1500 and up aside from El Bakkali. If they’re full fledged doping to get 3:34 guys yikes. You can judge him on Spain for sure, his manager has represented (unashamedly) dopers before and the country has some history of systematic doping. That does seem to be a good years back and again they don’t exactly have a stable at the moment of studs. His improvement is huge and warrants suspicion but the North African thing isn’t worthy of all this discussion.

Good cooking recipe but it's too salty.

Your Cheruiyot reached his limits and he is good to be replaced.

Passant wrote:All I know he was a good young Middle distance runners but he did not made it to the top Moroccan selection (be cause of the hard concurrent at that time). Then he searched other horizons.

You might want to expand your horizons concerning not taking steps through the Moroccan system. Rachid Ramzi was the former Rashid Khoula, who, for Morocco, won 1500m silver at the 1999 African Junior Championships to Peter Kipkoech.

That Ramzi failed to break through to the senior team was true. He flailed in Grand Prix running (he has a 3:44 1500m listed from Stockholm).

So, Bahrain noticed talent, scooped him up and let him continue to train in Morocco with Khalid Boulami, a Moroccan who definitely came through the system. In fact, Khalid's brother, Brahim Boulami, set two steeplechase world records, only to be ousted as an EPO cheat and lose that second record. Ramzi failed a test for the EPO derivative, Cera.

Steve Cram penned a sports blog for The Guardian following Ramzi's adverse finding.

"If circumstantial evidence were permissible for positive tests then Ramzi would have been close to the top of most people's lists. That he managed to join a celebrated group of 1500m world and Olympic champions has been a source of nagging discomfort in the past few years."

Very similar alarm bells are tolling concerning Katir. If Cram didn't buy that a guy could not just drop nine seconds off his PB, but also drop El Guerrouj, why wouldn't people suspect a relative unknown who dropped from 3:33 to 3:28 or improved from 13:50 to 12:50?

Finally, Ramzi stated economic conditions was the catalyst for leaving Morocco for Bahrain.

“I moved to Bahrain under my own economic motivation. There was no approach from the Government, it was my personal private choice which only came after the advice my friend gave me. I was desperate to find a way to live.”

Isn't this a similar line of reasoning being offered for Kitar?

"Ramzi takes military steps to greatness | NEWS | World Athletics"

Direct your investigations to Bahrain Athletics federation.

If a Moroccan fool start killing people in Bahrain, is the Moroccan Security who is responsible?

Katir live in Spain from age 4 or 5, that's another story. He has country and manager behind him.

Also always keep in mind that you always have to hear the runner point of view.

You will never be able to prove that Ramzi wasn't able to win the double world championship 2005.

You can speculate.

Katir is a young runner who has had a break-out year you cannot compare him to ramzi because he grew up in spain not morrocco so you can't link him to this "doping culture" that morrocco has anyway that is like someone telling me that I am corrupt just because I am congolese and our system is corrupt even though I have grown up in britain. Also 23 is still relatively young I hope he medals in tokyo

You speak so much sense Passant. I agree with you

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I feel like there are a lot of inane links to Moroccan stereotypes here. He moved at age 5 and doesn’t seem to have any links to the national program there which facilitated doping. Moreover, Morocco now STINKS as far as 1500 and up aside from El Bakkali. If they’re full fledged doping to get 3:34 guys yikes. You can judge him on Spain for sure, his manager has represented (unashamedly) dopers before and the country has some history of systematic doping. That does seem to be a good years back and again they don’t exactly have a stable at the moment of studs. His improvement is huge and warrants suspicion but the North African thing isn’t worthy of all this discussion.

You sound like you think he climbed off the boat all on his own at age 5 and was quickly inducted into some magical Spanish integration process.. He arrived with his Moroccan family. As an illegal immigrant, he would have mixed only with his family and other immigrants for a large chunk of his childhood.

How many other Moroccan origin athletes, even some born in Europe, have been involved in doping cases, above all in Spain? Surely you can see if you take off your PC glasses that such a pattern is relevant?

Samuel Mahele Akili wrote:

You speak so much sense Passant. I agree with you

So do you agree with him that Ramzi won the double at the 2005 WC without drugs? That he improved 9 seconds, won an unbelievable double, and THEN took drugs?

Do you agree with him that it doesn't matter anyway because 'he wasn't the only one'?

Do you agree that Moroccans have a 'superior gene' for running?

Do you agree that 'the Jew' has too much power in the West' and that 'Hebrew is sacred' in the USA?

That's just some of the c''p he's posted in the brief time he's been here.

I'm drawing zero comparisons between Spain and Morocco. Passant posited that Ramzi didn't come through the Moroccan system, which has been proven to not be the case. Ramzi, despite living three specific months a year in Bahrain, lived and trained in Morocco, maintaining his Moroccan passport.

Ramzi, a known athlete, improved beyond probabilities, which 1500m contestants, both former and current, called out. Katir, somewhat unknown in elite circles, dropped in a 12:50, 3:28 and 7:27 in an Olympic year, again improbable when compared to every person who has ever contested any of those three events.

Where the two appear to overlap is in the absolute dependency on 'making it', followed by monstrous performances in the immediate aftermath of those personal decisions.

And, once again, deductive arguments by Cram, Coe, James Nolan and others (exclusive of fans and armchair quarterbacks) proved that the truth of the conclusion (doping must be behind such results, because this is relatively impossible, especially when a person comes rises from obscurity) proved that the argument’s premises were, indeed, true.

Because their premises were true, logically, it would be impossible for the conclusion to be false. Doping proved to be true, which excluded argument for Ramzi to rise meteorically from nowhere.

Yes, it's wildly speculative at this point concerning Katir, but the identical argument has taken shape for several overlapping reasons.

Where has Passant said all this?

Here. He made the claim about Ramzi and 2005 being drug free on this page.

no contest wrote:

Where has Passant said all this?

Passant wrote:Rashid Ramzi, Mo Moughit Hamza Deriouch, have no links with the Moroccan system.

They were Moroccan born caught while running of other countries.

I dont think the Moroccan Federation had ever any relation with the coach Jama Eden.

Not only did Ramzi not remain predominantly domicile in Bahrain, he specially trained in Ifrane, in that Moroccan system, coached by a Moroccan from that system.

Charlie Chaplin wrote:

Here. He made the claim about Ramzi and 2005 being drug free on this page.

Where exactly. I havn't seen it so far.

Former Spanish 3000m record holder expresses doubt over Katir :

The young man has set the new mark at 7: 29.34, although Viciosa has made a series of comments about it that have not gone unnoticed. He did it in an interview for the portal 'Soy Corredor' :

"At the moment he is an athlete that I am putting in quarantine and I want to allow a few months for everything to pass, to certify those marks at the Olympic Games and confirm that he is completely clean . I think that with 50 years he can afford to be critical. And Another thing that may not be politically correct but I would like to say is that I would have liked an athlete with Castilian surnames to have beaten him , "he said.

no contest wrote:

Charlie Chaplin wrote:

Here. He made the claim about Ramzi and 2005 being drug free on this page.

Where exactly. I havn't seen it so far.

Admittedly his English is terrible and he has a weird way of expressing himself, but how would you interpret what he said literally 5 or 6 posts back?

Also always keep in mind that you always have to hear the runner point of view.

You will never be able to prove that Ramzi wasn't able to win the double world championship 2005.

You can speculate.