50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

That looks phantastic. Beatyful scenery!

Can you run barefoot there?

Seems spot on for 800 m training: 9 min high-end aerobic runs over the dunes.

I would check in immediately!

I hope you're able to get some effective help with the hip.

Fun week on my end, as it's a beautiful time of year here, and life is gradually opening up, coming back, whatever expression you like. I ran hills on the grounds of Strathmore Music Center yesterday and saw a youth orchestra practicing outside. Ran by a busy outdoor-brunch site today, a pack of charity walkers on a bike path, etc. etc. Everything just feels much livelier.

M 1:05 with drills and strides

Tu 1:25

W 1:00 with 2 X 10:00 (2:00 jog) at half-marathon pace (thru 2400 in 9:52, 9:45)

Th 2:10 double

F 1:45

Sa 1:10 w/ 6 X 1:30 hills (2:30 jog back down)

Su 1:30 + paper-grading session this afternoon

Have a great week,

Dave

amkelley: Thanks, does feel good to have the project completed. Looks good, and I seem to have handled the workload well. I do feel the right brushing shoulder when swimming. Some mobility exercises may help with that hip. Hip impingement issues seems to be fairly common with us long term runners.

Orient: I did injure myself jumping into faster running last year. I am planning to water down the transition to faster running even further than in the past. I sketched out my schedule last week: Monday-critical velocity (short tempo); Wednesday-drills, repetitions (Daniels definition); Saturday-mix (tempo, intervals (Daniels definition), repetitions). Weights and core following Monday and Wednesday. Rest of the week swimming, spin biking, or walking. Seems reasonable for a 70 year old.

Igy

Newbi wrote:

That looks phantastic. Beatyful scenery!

Can you run barefoot there?

Seems spot on for 800 m training: 9 min high-end aerobic runs over the dunes.

I would check in immediately!

Barefoot , a beautiful place for sure and race wise Sept Oct time frame

Happy May, fellow 50+ers! And congrats on the impressive racing efforts posted here. As your resident hobby jogger, I am here to keep things in “balance”. 😀

Thanks to those of you who have offered advice and support. I really appreciate it. However, I don’t think jtupper would advocate b2b hard days for someone of my age. I’m a strong believer of the “listen to your body” philosophy and it is telling me to pace myself.

I am pleased to report a solid 24.4 miles of actual running this week. The usual niggles were relatively quiet and my schedule allowed the alternating running days that I prefer. The upcoming week’s schedule has a challenge on Saturday, but I may be able to sneak in a run to keep the preferred schedule intact. If not, it may result in b2b rest days which wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world. To that point, the rest of the month also features some weekends of travel, so this month’s mileage may be down a bit. Oh well, life is good.

Mon: 74’ CR; body wt ex + med ball routine

Tues: off

Wed: 52’ CR; body wt ex + med ball routine

Thu: off

Fri: 74’ CR; body wt ex + med ball routine

Sat: off

Sun: 51’ CR; body wt ex + med ball routine

Best to most!

Hello to everyone and nice catching up on the thread. New members since last time I checked in. Nice race Orient. Coureur des bois, wow - sub 39 at 65+.

Took 4 months off from structured training after the half marathon race last December which was my first in over a year. The preparation was 70% cross training which did not prepare my body for the rigors of actual running fast. Had the endurance to run the 1:17 on a hard course but wrecked my body in the process. Felt old and worn for months after the race.

Twoo months ago I decided to focus on reversing all the damage running caused the last 5 years. Have no idea how some of you have managed to run for decades! In lieu of structuring my training to mitigate injury, the goal was to build a body that could handle intense workouts and high volume.

The plan in part was motivated by watching my girlfriend, a few years older than me, hopping around like a teenager. She is constantly doing something and almost all her activities produce lateral stress vs. my vertical emphasis.

Checked into an old resort on the banks of the Mekong river that separates Laos and Thailand. Started running the lava slabs that dominate the landscape. The slabs are huge and rugged. The results were immediate. Within a week I was hopping out of bed and within a month hips, knees, and the "old" man back pain were gone.

The locals think I'm crazy probably but starting to get used to me. Extremely primal here once you get a mile out of town and many live off the land. Insect hunters and vegetable gatherers seen on every run. Seeing the wildest things and having a blast. last week came upon a man singing while tearing open buffalo dung. He had a bag of golf ball size dung balls and the huge beetles inside them which are eaten.

Anyhow, have lots of time on my hands! Sorry for rambling. This week of unstructured training:

* 4 hours rugged trail running and rock hopping

* 4 hours road running. All of it undulating

* 4 hours of 17% incline treadmill run/walk

* 1 hour on a deserted stadium dirt/sand track.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

https://runsmartproject.com/2018/01/25/try-back-to-back-quality-days-when-training-in-season/

The advantages of back-to-back quality days. (From that article.)

1. You get two easy days of training after a Saturday race and before a Quality session.

2. You get two easy days before a race.

3. Knowing you have to come back with a good session on Wednesday keeps you from getting carried away on Tuesday and overtraining.

4. Helps runners prepare for two-day meets.

This is for young runners who race weekly and do two other quality sessions per week.

1. If you don't have a race in the following week, you can still take two easy days before the next quality session.

2. This does not apply if you do only one quality session in a week when you have a race.

4. This does not apply if you don't race on back-to-back days.

So the only point relevant for runner of our age is #3. To which, I can only say we have been running long enough to listen to our body instead of getting carried away on quality days.

If you are still trying to race weekly (including some two-day meets) and do two additional quality sessions per week, it is a good advice. Otherwise, it is irrelevant.

Orient wrote:

By the way, with regard to the hip issue, haven’t you tried an elliptical (as an intermediate between jogging and bike trainer)?

At various times in the past I've tried working out on an elliptical trainer but always found it hopelessly clumsy. It feels like my feet are forced to be way farther apart laterally than they want to be, and I feel I have no balance with my feet so far to the left and right of my center of gravity. Anyway, today at the gym I decided to give it another try. I had the same problem with the foot position being way too wide for me, but it didn't seem to be hurting my hip. I only stayed on for six minutes fearing that the awkward motion would make me very sore in other places.

I also tried a stair climbing machine, which I've sometimes used successfully in the past, although also with the same problem that my feet are too far apart side to side. The hip felt OK as long as I climbed sort of on my tiptoes, but when I went to a more flat-footed stride the hip started to hurt a little, although only in a dull achy sort of way that might go away, not sharp spasms.

I will try both machines again from time to time during the upcoming week.

+1 on the rock hopping for strengthening...also walking and jogging backwards also removes miles from the "old-ometer"

Amkellyey,

I see about inconvenience with an elliptical and stair climbing trainers.

But did not you try "real stairs"? There, your lateral stability is controlled by yourself only.

I recall that exactly a year ago I had a hip injury and could not even walk normally without a pain. But I could run upstairs well and this was what I was doing. After some warm-up exercises and some 15-20 min on a elliptical trainer (which produced no pain on a "low gear"), I "crawled/waddled" to a 17-story building nearby and was doing 5-6 sets from the ground floor to the top. Looking at my records I see entries smth like "5-6 х 16 stories, 1'55""-2'00"" each run with 1.5-2 min rest" to get down in the elevator (to minimize the rest time).

No idea whether this had a negative impact on the time for the injured hip to recover or not, but at least I did not feel hopeless and scared of total lost of the form . Could resume easy running (for 5-6 miles) in 18 days and the first intervals (though not at the full speed) in 4 weeks exactly. But then Achilles came into scene...

Anyway, better times will come for sure. Just hold on!

RF,

I would disagree, since as pointed out in the article peak muscle soreness occurs 48 hours later. Interestingly Mihaly Igloi and Joe Douglas used back to back quality days: Monday-Tuesday-Thursday-Saturday. Mondays were generally longer in duration, and Tuesday would be medium in duration and intensity. Both had high quality masters athletes in the years I ran for them. Beyond a racing week, I could see a week structured as follows:

Monday: Easy

Tuesday: Tempos

Wednesday: Intervals and/or repetitions

Thursday: Easy

Friday: Easy

Saturday: Race or Mix or Long Run

Sunday: Off or Easy or Long Run

Saturday and Sunday are left flexible depending on recovery, training emphasis, or racing. That said, I only shoot for three quality days a week as a 70 year old, but did use something similar to the above as a M-55 athlete.

Igy

Agree with Iggy / Daniels it might work really well for some

for example 2 years ago back in dikitty dikitty do...

I attempted a 5k wtf workout of a sub 12 3200 Fail at 2400 9:06

Next day success 2400 8:55 with plenty left

On race day felt so so and ran accordingly 19:05 maybe I should have done something hard the day before?

Vid of fail 3200 next day success at 2400:

https://youtu.be/VoANFivMgJ4

The most important take away from this article is, “Definitely not all runners respond the same and the coach has to try different combinations with different runners.... the point is to find out what works best for each runner.”

We are each an experiment of one. Cookie cutter approaches are not the best answer.

Charlie wrote:

Agree with Iggy / Daniels it might work really well for some

for example 2 years ago back in dikitty dikitty do...

I attempted a 5k wtf workout of a sub 12 3200 Fail at 2400 9:06

Next day success 2400 8:55 with plenty left

On race day felt so so and ran accordingly 19:05 maybe I should have done something hard the day before?

Vid of fail 3200 next day success at 2400:

https://youtu.be/VoANFivMgJ4

I liken a fit athlete to a high performance auto. Driving in town at 20 miles an hour not what it was meant for. In order to improve you have to change up the stimulus, which Charlie has innovative with. Also, in marathon training, Daniels has advocated “bunching” for masters, and those folks time compressed. For example, long run of 16 miles in morning, another 4 in the afternoon, and then 6 the morning of the following day. The goal to get 26 miles within a 24 hour period.

This is an interesting topic how to get the most of training with the least risk of injury

First a point/question

If peak DOMS takes on average 48 hours ,seems like a 2 day hard easy pattern would not allow for a full recovery. This assumes DOMS is a good proxy for not being fully recovered.

With DOMS in mind it takes older runners longer to recovery

So seems like at least for older runners 48 hours is not enough recovery time.

Hard runs followed by at least 2 easy days is working ok right now because it don't take that much to trigger super comp as I am fit but not peaking

Once I get down to the nitty gritty I might try this idea of splitting up the hard days into 2 days followed by easy easy. With the hard work being a lot harder than what I do now. Say I want to do 2 x a ladder cause ladders are way cool here is a good one not mine :

A simple ladder workout could include intervals of 100, 200, 300, 400, 300, 200, and 100 meters run at target pace. In preparing for a 1,500-meter race, one of Olympian Shayne Culpepper's ladder workouts involved performing two sets of intervals of 600, 400, 300, 200, and 100 meters at a mile race pace or faster. A 100-meter jog separates each interval, and 3 minutes of recovery separates each set

So instead of a 3 minute recovery between ladders I would come back the next day and do the second ladder . This seems like a fun way to do hard stuff .

The idea comes from science of running

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2019/07/not-hard-not-easy-the-in-between-training-day.html?v=47e5dceea252

Small spices of workouts- Instead of a full blown workout, try 50% of a normal workout. You can repeat these frequently during the season as a way to maintain fitness without causing too much fatigue. Something like 6-8x200s at 5k to mile pace is an example. Or 10 minutes of tempo work with some strides or surges afterwards. Just something to keep the body reminded of what it’s like to run fast or get your heart rate up.

The 600m-400m-300m-200m-100m is a classic Oregon miler workout. The 600 and 400 at mile goal pace, 300 and 200 at 800m pace, and the 100 at 400m pace. Recovery 600m/400m, 400m/200m, 300m/200m, 200m/100m with 800m jog between sets.

Running Dogg wrote:

The most important take away from this article is, “Definitely not all runners respond the same and the coach has to try different combinations with different runners.... the point is to find out what works best for each runner.”

We are each an experiment of one. Cookie cutter approaches are not the best answer.

Yeah, recommending b2b hard days for someone who is currently running only four times a week does not make much sense to me. But some people do really like the cookie cutter approach.

I had a 2 min personal worst in half marathon on Saturday (1:51+). Given the recent hamstring problem and the general low level of intensity in my training, I was not expecting much. And maybe I should feel lucky that I didn't blow up my knee, hamstring or anything else. The course was pretty tough, and the weather was warm for a half marathon. (About 70F at the finish.) It was good enough for a 3rd place in my AG, but I did not pick up my award. The presentation was several hours later at a different site, and I could not check if I had won anything. So I thought this time was too slow for any award.

Charlie,

Another idea is something like a lighter bout of tempo and intervals. The following day 6 x 200m @ 800m goal pace with 20 seconds rest.

Igy