50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Scubacane wrote:

Any thoughts to my approach?

dhaaga gave you excellent advice. I will add just one more thing. Why not post your progress on this thread even before you start marathon specific training?

My week.

M: off.

T: 10.7km.

W: 10.5km.

R: 14.2km. (9:58-9:35-9:22-9:11-9:01-8:53-8:44-8:08)

F-SA: 10.7km.

SU: 19.6km.

I had another excellent progression run on Thursday, and another disappointing "long" run on Sunday. I am not still sure if I should race a half in three weeks. It's a local race, so no travel arrangement required. So I guess I can afford to wait.

Coyote Montane,

You mentioned an interesting point: "my weekly average is 8:00-8:10, but at 5200-6500' elevation for the most part, at sea level would be about 7:50 to 8"

Is this 10 sec/mile "highlander bonus" available shortly after you are at sea level, or do you need some time to accommodate?

Cavorty,

If you LT indeed corresponds to 6.30/mile, then there should be no doubt that you can be under 20 when racing 5K. I am quite around your numbers (slightly worse, though) and will try 5k at a local race in 10 days.

Personally I think you are aiming to run too many miles.

60 mpw for a 4 hr marathoner is equal to about 120 mpw for a world class runner. Yep they run that much and more but they do nothing else and they aren't a 55 yo average Joe.

In my opinion you would be better to maintain the sort of mileage you are currently doing. That is as much as any of the "mature" 3.30/40 runners I know are doing most of the year. That sort of consistant manageable approach builds a great base. From there you can create a more specific training block closer to the marathon.

I think your current plan will lead to injury and mental fatigue.

Just my opinion.

Disclaimer zero marathon experience not slow twitch dominate but have built up to semi high mileage.

Your 10k and half times indicate a sub 4.

Your Achilles heal is TORF time on your feet .

Place emphasis on the long run vs overall mileage.

Build up to 4 hour run/walk workouts. Once you can do a 4 hour walk start adding in some slow running mix it up keep it fresh.

Reduce miles or cross train after doing the long runs .

I do a 2 hour run/walk every 3rd day with a 50/50 ratio and my goals are Mid Distance. TORF !

Cavorty wrote:

About to be 64-year-old. Back about 4 1/2 months after 12 weeks off.

Do people think that the really long run 90 min+ is necessary if you've been running for 50 years? I have got up as far as doing 9 at 7:24 a few weeks back.

Is 40 miles per week (what I've worked up to) enough?

Mid-term target is to run under 20 min for 5k. Longer term a 10k in September.

HR is 40 resting, max about 165

Do people think that the really long run 90 min+ is necessary if you've been running for 50 years? I have got up as far as doing 9 at 7:24 a few weeks back.

IMO the 50 years has pluses and minuses . Many the top runners over 60 have been running for much less. The 10 years of improvement seems to be accurate. So you can get into stuff like muscle memory and vascular networks as well as mitochondrial aging inflammation . One key component that has helped me of late is a focus on tendon health . High miles and mileage is definitely pleotropic.

Is 40 miles per week (what I've worked up to) enough?

Depends on distance of course but just to be precise.

At 5k probably within 60 seconds plus or minus 15 seconds of your best. That is without cross training. Cross training has really helped me with endurance and recovery.

Long winded version on miles

One mistake I made last time around was running the same 50 minutes everyday. It kind of wore me down very slowly. Shorter runs or cross training with a long run is something that I am working on. I only run once every third day for 60 minutes with tons of cross training. Today after my 60 minutes (16 tempo ) I ran 1600 on the old HS track . Had not been near a track in 5 months with several months of only running 20 minutes a few days a week. Ran at 5k effort for a 6:09 even except for the last lap of 1:29. WAG 19:30 on a good track/day. So if I doubled my miles and did some faster stuff for 6 months or so I might get under 19 . Frankly it is just not worth the wear and tear and risk. But I know that I can run about my best in the 800 off this low mileage and that should get me outta DFL at Nats in the M65 next year;)

Charlie wrote:

Disclaimer zero marathon experience not slow twitch dominate but have built up to semi high mileage.

Your 10k and half times indicate a sub 4.

Your Achilles heal is TORF time on your feet .

Place emphasis on the long run vs overall mileage.

Build up to 4 hour run/walk workouts. Once you can do a 4 hour walk start adding in some slow running mix it up keep it fresh.

Reduce miles or cross train after doing the long runs .

I do a 2 hour run/walk every 3rd day with a 50/50 ratio and my goals are Mid Distance. TORF !

for what it's worth, i agree with everything charlie says, including his disclaimer since i've never done a marathon (though i've trained with a fair number of them).

i think for most runners, you'll get better insight into their abilities and capabilities by looking at quality workouts and training frequency, NOT volume, yet everyone seems caught up in weekly mileage. for a mid-d dude, you're looking at their intervals and, in some cases, threshold/tempo runs; for a marathoner, their long run is the quality. recovery days, and warm-ups and cool-downs are generally not the way you want to pad your mileage, though many do.

for my part, i've grown quite attached to my 90+ minute trail runs, just because. but if i were trying to focus my training for a particular event, and wanted more precision in my workout scheme, i'd likely dispense with them at some point...

hope this helps,

cush

Orient wrote:

Coyote Montane,

You mentioned an interesting point: "my weekly average is 8:00-8:10, but at 5200-6500' elevation for the most part, at sea level would be about 7:50 to 8"

Is this 10 sec/mile "highlander bonus" available shortly after you are at sea level, or do you need some time to accommodate?

Cavorty,

If you LT indeed corresponds to 6.30/mile, then there should be no doubt that you can be under 20 when racing 5K. I am quite around your numbers (slightly worse, though) and will try 5k at a local race in 10 days.

Good luck with with the race.

I'm guessing that the 3 miles in 19:30 was pretty close to LT, given that the warm-up mile was 7:04 and first warm-down mile 7:09 (with HR dropping 10 beat pm). If it had been close to race effort I'd have been coming to grinding halt at the LT 3 miles. Big question is how much quicker can I go when I push it. Leg fatigue was more a limiting factor here than cardio-vascular system as I still was about 15 beats pm short of max HR (probably about right for LT - at least it stopped me time-trialing it!).

Had a relatively promising session today. Again with somewhat tired legs - 5x1000m with 1:45 recovery (200m jog) in 3:57, 3:57, 3:57. 3:57 and 3:54.

Carrying some training fatigue into sessions is deliberate - in the past I've kept myself fresh for sessions, done some blinding workouts, then peaked and plateaued really quickly.

Going to the question: “Do people think that the really long run 90 min+ is necessary if you've been running for 50 years?” If you are 60 and racing 5k or under I think the answer is clearly no. Now that is not to say there isn’t some benefit to doing so, but is it necessary? Perhaps as a 70 year old it has colored my view, as an M55 I routinely ran that far. However, post 60 I noticed the negative consequences of being chained to the long run. I see the same in local aging runners I am familiar with; many of which vanish incrementally over time. Stubborn and unwilling to adapt? I can’t say for sure. As I posted earlier, if one is fortunate enough to continue to train as a younger athlete, so much the better. I would tend to believe one’s ability to run at repetition pace is a better skill set to maintain for the masters athlete.

Charlie - you taught me a new word, which I should have know being somewhat involved in the genetics of thoroughbred horse racing. I did know 'Polymorphic' as in Single Nucleotide Polymorphism, but did not know Pleiotropic.

I think we do tend to over think of training in terms of heart, lungs and muscular-skeletal systems, and not enough in terms of neurological recruitment, and the impact a single session can have in turning on genes.

5k is about as far as I'd go in terms of being serious - it's actually probably at the outer edge of my best distance, but if I'm fit I can usually run a time in the top 6-8 US track times in the age group (I don't show up on the rankings as I'm English). I did get third in US Masters at 5k a few years back before the 'injury cascade.'

I'd always tended to be a lower mileage/higher intensity runner and even now a steady run in the 7:30 - 7:40 range seems slow, unless I'm dead tired.

Apart from training for a couple marathons in my late 30s (at which I sucked, about 20 minutes slower than my 3k/5k would indicate although I ran even pace) I tended not to do 'long' runs of much over hour. I did get persuaded to work up to 3 or 4 runs of 1 hour 45 min per cycle in my mid-50s, and did get noticeable improvement.

At the moment, I'm doing a 'long' run of about 8 miles; one slow 4 miles the day after the long run; two harder sessions; and three steady 5 miles runs. If I do go longer I might go to trails and run for time - I find on the road I just go way too quick!

Must have just missed you at the track today if you were in Florence. That's a dreadful track. Was there about 1:00pm and did 5x1000 with 1:45 jog in average of 3:56.5.

Orient wrote:

Coyote Montane,

You mentioned an interesting point: "my weekly average is 8:00-8:10, but at 5200-6500' elevation for the most part, at sea level would be about 7:50 to 8"

Is this 10 sec/mile "highlander bonus" available shortly after you are at sea level, or do you need some time to accommodate?

Cavorty,

If you LT indeed corresponds to 6.30/mile, then there should be no doubt that you can be under 20 when racing 5K. I am quite around your numbers (slightly worse, though) and will try 5k at a local race in 10 days.

A lot of sea level people think that the difference between altitude and sea level is bogus. I think I have personal data that shows otherwise. e.g, I have not run under 18:05 at altitude since moving back here in 2014, but went sub 17:30 on humid (August) Atlanta's 5K course two years in a row. And to answer your question, you feel the effect right away, but takes a week or two to get the full speed benefit--that's why the elites go to altitude for 6 weeks, back to sea level for a couple fast workouts and maybe a tune-up race and then aim for their peak races.

As far as the 90 minute thing goes, this thread has some with a more mid-d bent (Charlie and Cush) and others with more distance focus (amkelly and dhaaga come to mind). And some of us like the middle or can't decide what they like. I think for 5K and under 90 minute long runs is plenty, and maybe 90-100 minutes in the off-season. But if you are going to run a marathon, in say 2.5 to 3 hours you are going to need to do more than 90 minutes. For those of us in the middle (8K to half marathon), well, 2 years ago if I had topped off at 90 min LR and 50 mpw (instead of 1:40-2:00 and 65-70 mpw) leading up, I would have run 2-3 minutes slower at the WMA half.

About 10:15 till 10:22 ;) this morning old wavy

sub 20 yeah you are ready for sure

5x1000 R1:45/200 at 19:4x tired legs on old wavy

Cavorty,

Always read your posts with great interest. Looks like at the moment we are in a similar form.

I have just completed my regular weekly 5x1K interval workout and the numbers are quite similar to yours: 3.52-3.54-3.50-3.50-3.54 (1:30-1:45 jogging in between).

I am usually also very interested in the HR dynamics/drift. And here are the numbers (immediate after interval / 1 min after):

138/110 - 142/114 - 144/118 - 150/120 - 156/126. Looks adequate, IMHO.

The second goal of this run was to compare newly bought "magic" Asics MetaSpeed Sky vs. regular trainers (I use very soft ones to protect legs) - currently Saucony Triumph 18.

So, today's average in Saucony (3.52) is about 5 sec slower than in Asics a week ago (was about 3.47). Did not expect to get such a difference at such short intervals. Thought that the "magic" started working at much longer distances (HM and more, or 10K as min).

All the best to everybody.

Re: The 90 minute run

So is the benefit the 1-1/2 hours on your feet rather than the miles, with no regard to pace? I've always been mileage based, not time. Just a few years ago a 90 minute run was 13 miles. These days, post falling off the cliff, it's closer to a 10 mile run!

Interesting conversation. Probably doesn't matter to me though as I'm about ready to throw my stupid watch in the trash and just run...

Dave

This thread could form a kick butt XC team for M60

RB

CM

RacerDB

KP

Orient

Cavorty

TG I am about to hit the Big 65 cause I could not make the travel squad for M60

Orient,

Looks like you're a bit ahead of me. This was first V02 max session (been training again for about 4 1/2 months after 3 months off) of this cycle. I'd also figure I hadn't got completely over Saturday where the 3 mile tempo was 19:30 and Garmin got me at 42:49 for 10k that day including tempo, and warm-up/warm-down. Did a slow 4 miles (8:19) the next day; then two 5 mile runs at 7:35 and 7:41 on Monday and Tuesday.

My finishing HR on the 5x1000m was 141, 148, 151, 156 and 159 (hit 161 at around 500m, but didn't have the legs to maintain effort).

This was the first time for a long-time that I've got up to that kind of HR - I peaked at about 151 on the tempo, ended about 148 (again leg fatigue was the limiting factor).

I've done quite a few rep sessions, but nothing where I've combined 5k pace with anything over 800m. Hoping that session should bring me on a bit.

Interesting with the shoes - I've been thinking about those Asics since I'm more a turnover runner - over 190 steps per min on the faster stuff.

Have a good 5k at the weekend.

Charlie wrote:

This thread could form a kick butt XC team for M60

RB

CM

RacerDB

KP

Orient

Cavorty

TG I am about to hit the Big 65 cause I could not make the travel squad for M60

I think RB is 65 now, but could easily drop down and run with 60+.

Forgot dhaaga is 60 , ran 18:2x and a 5:3x mile so by Dec with the hammy healed a top guy too.

After a fourth listen to

Iñigo San Millán, Ph.D.: Mitochondria, exercise, and metabolic health

I am convinced so

I ran 90 minutes super easy then sprints in sand 4x30 secs

This was a bump of 30 minutes but went super slow felt great.

gonna stick with xtrn xtrn run for awhile longer but will run 90 minutes now and then heck maybe even longer.

Hello everyone.

Yes CM I am 66 now. I have been away for quite awhile but am back. I have retired from my job recently so now have more time to read these posts and hopefully contribute.

I have been able to get in a good solid year of training without much in the way of setbacks.

Recent significant workouts included a 10k road race on March (first race in over two years) running 36:39 which was under the 65-69 AR but not a USATF certified course. March 25th 3 x mile on the track witha 2 min. rest btw each running 5:44, 5:46, 5:42. March 31st 6 mile tempo on the track in 37:21 (6:14 average). April 14th 3 x 2 miles with 2 minute rest on the track 12:15, 11:57, 11:48. This past week included a 15.7 miler, 20x1 minute and a decent pace 10 miler with the other days as recoveries 8 miles normally. I have been injury free in part due to the fact that I am in the weight room 3 times a week lifting (mostly for my lower body) and plyometrics which includes box jumping, as well as a 30 minute stretching routine after every run which includes using a roller. I also have been running up many hills of varying lengths and grades where I now live in Selah. So have developed much strength. Like many of you I am just anxious to get my national racing started . Hopefully this summer. My normal workout routine consist of a long run (15-17 miles), a hard hammer hilly 10 miler, short speed sessions 200-300 meters, or 45 second sprints up a steep hill, and a tempo run of 8 miles. The recovery days are normally eight miles easy. I try to stay on a 10 day cycle with those workouts.

I trust that you can stay motiviated and train as hard as you dare. For those suffering from injuries- God's speed to you for recovery.

Have a great week.

RB

Hi RB,

how do you feel after your hard 10 miler? Are you very tired? How do you recover?

Have fun!