Wondering what everyone’s thoughts were on an approach geared toward half marathon and eventually full marathon. I was thinking 2 sub T workouts and then a 90 minute long run either with a tempo of 20-30 minutes in the middle or a fast finish long run. Would that be overcooking too much or does it sound about right? Essentially dropping the 3rd sub t workout and keeping the more traditional long run for the longer distances but still getting that 3rd threshold stimulus. Thanks to all in advance!
Wondering what everyone’s thoughts were on an approach geared toward half marathon and eventually full marathon. I was thinking 2 sub T workouts and then a 90 minute long run either with a tempo of 20-30 minutes in the middle or a fast finish long run. Would that be overcooking too much or does it sound about right? Essentially dropping the 3rd sub t workout and keeping the more traditional long run for the longer distances but still getting that 3rd threshold stimulus. Thanks to all in advance!
For the marathon, I would expect the 3rd sub-t session to be long run session starting at easy and working down to 5-15 second slower than current marathon pace, then holding it for the session, the last 5-10mins of the session can be at current marathon pace/effort/hr/power/sm02/lacate.
The time to work down to marathon + pace would be progressively decreased each week depending on your current fitness levels, this increases your time near marathon pace, you should also think about increasing the total length of the session depending on how long this session is, ideally 2 hours to 2 hours 30 mins depending on your marathon expected finishing time.
This should give a large stimulus at sub t without being overly taxing and great practice being very specific to practicing long effort required for a good marathon.
You maybe still need to do a 75mins to 90mins “long” easy run at some point during the week though.
Wondering what everyone’s thoughts were on an approach geared toward half marathon and eventually full marathon. I was thinking 2 sub T workouts and then a 90 minute long run either with a tempo of 20-30 minutes in the middle or a fast finish long run. Would that be overcooking too much or does it sound about right? Essentially dropping the 3rd sub t workout and keeping the more traditional long run for the longer distances but still getting that 3rd threshold stimulus. Thanks to all in advance!
Just follow sirpoc on Strava for the half. He ran a 1:14 having 1. Never run a HM before and 2. Having never even run 13.1 miles before and he finished his HM like a monster. So there's no need to change anything in my humble opinion for the half. There's a decent amount of talk on the Strava group as to what then change when moving up to the full, but the general consensus was you probably would do something reasonably similar, with some slight adjustments. It's well worth going on there to have a read. The good thing about the Strava group is lack of trolls and people aren't anonymous so have to remain accountable 😊
Quick question for those familiar with intervals.icu. If we use this 3x sub t approach and are using hr based tss calculation, wouldn’t the fitness curve plateau pretty quick (8-10 weeks?) because over time we are still training at the same hr even though we are running faster. Given that the fitness curve is a 42 day weighted average calculation wouldn’t it plateau? So am I missing something or is there a better way to see progress if this is true
The bolded part is key.
You are running faster at a similar HR, so in principal it should not plateau. Waiting for Hard2Find to verify this numerically though.
Even though your pace gets faster your LT2 will also get faster so you are going to be in the same zone with the same TSS. This is why it is important to keep your threshold updated in the system otherwise it loses it's accuracy.
If you want to continue adding load after 6 to 8 weeks you will need to add either duration or effort or both.
That is how/why Sirpoc started doing the 3 sub-T workouts a week. He didn't have the time to add duration so he added another sub-T session (and/or more work to each session) in order to increase weekly load.
Wondering what everyone’s thoughts were on an approach geared toward half marathon and eventually full marathon. I was thinking 2 sub T workouts and then a 90 minute long run either with a tempo of 20-30 minutes in the middle or a fast finish long run. Would that be overcooking too much or does it sound about right? Essentially dropping the 3rd sub t workout and keeping the more traditional long run for the longer distances but still getting that 3rd threshold stimulus. Thanks to all in advance!
For the marathon, I would expect the 3rd sub-t session to be long run session starting at easy and working down to 5-15 second slower than current marathon pace, then holding it for the session, the last 5-10mins of the session can be at current marathon pace/effort/hr/power/sm02/lacate.
The time to work down to marathon + pace would be progressively decreased each week depending on your current fitness levels, this increases your time near marathon pace, you should also think about increasing the total length of the session depending on how long this session is, ideally 2 hours to 2 hours 30 mins depending on your marathon expected finishing time.
This should give a large stimulus at sub t without being overly taxing and great practice being very specific to practicing long effort required for a good marathon.
You maybe still need to do a 75mins to 90mins “long” easy run at some point during the week though.
The tricky thing about applying this system to marathon training is the recovery time. This system works so well because it’s repeatable week after week. You can handle three sessions a week because the sessions aren’t overly taxing and the mileage isn’t so high that you aren’t recovering. For the marathon, having a really long run or workout combined with higher mileage would compromise recovery time. Something to keep in mind as you apply this system to the marathon.
Even though your pace gets faster your LT2 will also get faster so you are going to be in the same zone with the same TSS. This is why it is important to keep your threshold updated in the system otherwise it loses it's accuracy.
If you want to continue adding load after 6 to 8 weeks you will need to add either duration or effort or both.
That is how/why Sirpoc started doing the 3 sub-T workouts a week. He didn't have the time to add duration so he added another sub-T session (and/or more work to each session) in order to increase weekly load.
My LT1 and LT2 haven’t changed in years despite getting faster.
How do you reconcile using hr? In my experience, stress scores plateau after a few months and he becomes a useless system.
Pace or power at LT are really the better metrics.
Even though your pace gets faster your LT2 will also get faster so you are going to be in the same zone with the same TSS. This is why it is important to keep your threshold updated in the system otherwise it loses it's accuracy.
If you want to continue adding load after 6 to 8 weeks you will need to add either duration or effort or both.
That is how/why Sirpoc started doing the 3 sub-T workouts a week. He didn't have the time to add duration so he added another sub-T session (and/or more work to each session) in order to increase weekly load.
My LT1 and LT2 haven’t changed in years despite getting faster.
How do you reconcile using hr? In my experience, stress scores plateau after a few months and he becomes a useless system.
Pace or power at LT are really the better metrics.
The speed of your LT1 and LT2 or the %HRmax at which they occur hasn't changed?
Even though your pace gets faster your LT2 will also get faster so you are going to be in the same zone with the same TSS. This is why it is important to keep your threshold updated in the system otherwise it loses it's accuracy.
If you want to continue adding load after 6 to 8 weeks you will need to add either duration or effort or both.
That is how/why Sirpoc started doing the 3 sub-T workouts a week. He didn't have the time to add duration so he added another sub-T session (and/or more work to each session) in order to increase weekly load.
My LT1 and LT2 haven’t changed in years despite getting faster.
How do you reconcile using hr? In my experience, stress scores plateau after a few months and he becomes a useless system.
Pace or power at LT are really the better metrics.
I agree, the pace at LT2 is the metric to pay attention to. Sorry for the confusion. Pace at LT2 is what I mean when I say LT2.
The pace at LT2 is what you enter into intervals.icu to demonstrate your threshold and is then the metric that your pace zones are based upon.
The speed of your LT1 and LT2 or the %HRmax at which they occur hasn't changed?
That’s speed, or pace…not heart rate.
Let’s not conflate two systems.
My LTHr is about 151-152 bpm, and that’s a solid range from years of testing.
My pace at that hr can vary more than a minute per mile depending on if I’m trained or not.
Your HR zones may not change much, regardless of how fit you become.
The point is that you are spending certain percentages of your time in each zone each week. If you run the same volume at the same zone percentages every week for 8 weeks you are going to level off. In order to prevent that leveling off you need to increase the overall time spent running or increase the intensity (a percentage of running needs to move to a higher zone) or a combination of both.
The speed of your LT1 and LT2 or the %HRmax at which they occur hasn't changed?
That’s speed, or pace…not heart rate.
Let’s not conflate two systems.
My LTHr is about 151-152 bpm, and that’s a solid range from years of testing.
My pace at that hr can vary more than a minute per mile depending on if I’m trained or not.
Okay, just wanted to clarify you were talking about your threshold paces changing and HR staying consistent, before commenting. I’ve read about some odd physiological phenomena recently and thought maybe I had a new one for the UAP (Unidentified Aerobic Phenomenon) investigatory file haha
As far as HR and TSS goes… whether you are using pace or HR, the percent of your threshold at which the run occurs and for what duration are the two variables that determine TSS. So, if the intensity is fixed, you need to increase the duration to increase the TSS. If the duration is fixed, you need to increase the intensity, whether that is %HRmax or %FTP.
I agree, saying your LTHR is X% of HRmax is meaningless without a reference to something that represents pace, speed, or power. That’s a reference to improvement though, which is different from calculating TSS. As TSS is attempting to measure stress, which is a function of intensity (or effort) and duration.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Wondering what everyone’s thoughts were on an approach geared toward half marathon and eventually full marathon. I was thinking 2 sub T workouts and then a 90 minute long run either with a tempo of 20-30 minutes in the middle or a fast finish long run. Would that be overcooking too much or does it sound about right? Essentially dropping the 3rd sub t workout and keeping the more traditional long run for the longer distances but still getting that 3rd threshold stimulus. Thanks to all in advance!
Take a look at Bakken's marathon program. Since he is still selling access to it, I won't give it away, but there isn't a lot of threshold work in it.
Would you be able to point me in the direction of this strava group and sirpocs strava?
If you’re real committed to the thread you’ll find it 😘
Committed to being a loser you mean. This thread is probably the most disingenuous in LRC history. Bunch of weirdos who pretend they can run fast when the reality is they are too lazy to train properly. Patting each other on the back so they feel special. Get out there, put HARD miles in, vo2 max workouts and you WILL get faster. 80+ pages of nonsense.
What does the model look like in the base phase, while building up to the threshold? I was reading this thread about K. Ingebrigtsen's training, https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=11836681, 3Q + a long run see...
I wanted to second comment a part of the thread that made me truly lol.
Forget all this talk of Jakob versus the Brits. Lets see what someone else already suggested, a LR special where they pit Kristoffer versus the British random internet cycling dude, sirpoc! Hobby jogger head to head , who cares about Jakob versus Wightman or Kerr! This is all the matters to this thread!
I have a feeling it would be a very close race!
In all seriousness . This thread is in .y bookmarks, I love the recent revival and talk it's taking a really good direction. Credit to Hard2find on all the awesome work he's doing with tools.
I follow both on Strava, I was thinking this other day, very funny. Norway goes home unhappy again, sirpoc wins for Britain over KI. Very close race. Just going on current workouts. Have to decide distance to race first but few seconds in it. YouTube it. I'd be more invested in this than most sport served up modern era.