50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Seattle silver: I am using pegasus for most. current pair is also durable. i am buying half size bigger than recommended. So, enough free space in the heel cap. I do not believe that the heel drop affects me negatively as I am happy sometimes to change to heel striking reliefing my archilles. depending on pace i am usually fore foot striker or on mid foot.

Old guy II -- Adding my accolades for that mile TT. Impressive! On my most recent attempt, I wasn't even close to my 6:30 goal that day, and I'm a decade younger. amkelley -- I hope you can solve your health woes soon. In the meantime, wow, that's a nice bicycling week!

Big Red wrote:I'll go out on a limb and say you could nail a 3:30 marathon off of 40-45 mpw.

I think your estimate is probably accurate. Unfortunately, my knee condition likely limits me to 20 mpw. I was handling 16 mpw ok through the summer. With luck, maybe I can get close to 30? We'll see. Also, welcome back! Looks like we're in a similar place, training- and fitness-wise. It'll be interesting to compare notes along the way.

SeattleSilver wrote:I've added Nike Pegasus 37 Zoom Air for the cushioning. I'm not convinced they will be my cushion shoe forever because I don't like Nike's affinity for large heel to toe drops, but they are doing the job of reducing the post-run muscle soreness.

I credit my New Balance Fresh Foam Mores with allowing me to return to running. Cushioned, ample toe box, and only 4mm drop. They're wearing relatively quickly, but at my low mileage, they'll last a couple years.

Big Red wrote:

The biking sounds great, actually I'm jealous, an oddball hip injury from my youth keeps me off the bike so I can't substitute biking for running...

That's a shame. Being able to ride when injured running has been a great boon to keeping my sanity and some level of fitness at many times in my life. So far (knock on wood!) I've never had an injury that stopped me from cycling for more than a few days. Even when I stress fractured my foot and just walking was nearly intolerable, the stiffness of a cycling shoe made it almost like a cast and I could ride with almost no pain as long as I just sat in the saddle and spun.

It also helps to have a husband who's a bike racer and keeps my rather nice road bike in tip-top shape. The only thing sub-par about my bike is its motor...

amk - when I was 23, I spontaneously hurdled a construction barrier in the street. I landed funny and popped my left hip slightly out of joint, and there it sits 40 years later. Various doctors told me to not mess with it, unless I wanted to undergo a major procedure.

Biking irritates the nearby tendons, as does middle distance interval work. Distance running is fine, thankfully...

Guess.

Your description reads and sounds exactly like what I had late spring this year. I thought it was MN. Never had it before so didn't know. I stayed off the track and out of spikes but kept running until I finally got an MRI confirming a "healing stress reaction". I did nothing for 8 days except two days of nine holes of golf walking and carrying the bag. Hurt like the dickens of course since I shot well over 50! When a runner hears "healing" he/she (if foolish like me) takes that as a positive and keeps on running. Guess what? Of course, it stayed the same or got worse, better, worse, better. Still the about the same for another six weeks. And oh by the way my osteochondral ankle joint flared up as bad as seven years prior just before I had a successful surgery. The dummy in me finally said STOP! So I did and wore a boot for ten days. I started doing a little bit of core to not get too fat. I also spun on a stationary bike then iced it. It worked (kinda). I kept the light core and ice going but began trining again aiming for a 5k road race 4 weeks later. I did this in a super painful 20:23. Nothing hurts as much as being out of shape and bonking halfway through a 5k.

From there I added what I call the K-7 core. Seven simple exercise routines every single day.

1. Foot Circles/Gas Pedals before getting out of bed x 20-30

2. Pushups to Situps to Pushups x 20-30-20

3. Leg Lifts from laying on each body side Straight Up Right Angle Left Angle Swith Sides x 10

4. Hip Flexor Lifts laying on back knees bent x 10

5. Barefoot Balance with opposite knee lifted to 90 degrees for 60s secs each foot

6. Heel Dips on a bench or steps x 100 each foot

7. Wall Sit 120secs - no hands with thighs parallel to the ground.

I swear this simple stuff worked well together. I can't guarantee which was the best - but you know you need to do this stuff when you realize your first weeks at it burns - and my balance act on one foot was pathetic. Now it's pretty damn impressive (and at age 60). So much so I can demonstrate it to the high school kids I coach.

Six Consistent Weeks of K-7 and Magill's 5k Book (slightly modified by my) and I ran 19:35 for 5k road race Turkey Trot. I don't believe I could have dropped from 20:23 to this without the K-7s which continues to keep my ankle joint loose and stress reaction gone.

Like Cush says... that's my "7 for Kevin" story and I'm sticking to it.

Let me know if something similar clears up your MN SR whatever it is. Get in that Boot first and foremost.

SS cushioning shoe or surface is an interesting topic, the following article states the paradox much better than I can:

https://runnersconnect.net/running-surface/#:~:text=But%20here's%20the%20odd%20part,when%20we%20consider%20injury%20prevention

.

Last hard effort was 3 weeks ago a 1600 in 5:56 which my vastus medias attachment did not like.

After 3 weeks of doing the suggested tendon loading isometric variation with 20 minute jogs, I decided to test it out. So far so good.

Warmup 2x100 in 23 a 200 in 44 and a 400 in 1:42

TP(not toilet paper Typical Charlie )Based upon the warmup I decide what I am going to do to me this makes the most sense . Until I warmup I have no idea just how much quality I should do. Anyhow I decided to do 10x300 with rest being by ear.

First 5 : 67s

Next 4 : 65s

Last one : 58 with the last 100 about 18 flat

3000 in 10:58 which is probably 3000 race pace

Recoveries were 2 minutes of walking 100 plus some leg swings always starting fully recovered so they felt easy that is the idea always run with good elasticity in the legs.

So now I will wait and see if this was stupid or not but either way I am sold on this tendon stuff as a good way to keep em youthful

"Clinically, these data suggest that limited range-of-motion exercises even if performed with a light weight should be effective at increasing collagen synthesis in a developing or regenerating tendon or ligament. From our model and the existing in-vivo data, the important message is that: repeated short periods of activity that load the connective tissue followed by long periods of rest appear to be optimum for connective tissue health and function."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5371618/

Above link to Baar paper works. btw TP makes no sense;) unless you get Yogi Berra

Charlie wrote:

SS cushioning shoe or surface is an interesting topic, the following article states the paradox much better than I can:

Back in Oct I referenced this study in my overly-long ode to Ed Whitlock. I live in a trail-running mecca where all my trail running friends are just as injured as they ever were before we had all the trails. I know for a fact that trails hurt my knees. Again, back to Ed: He figured out the instability of soft surfaces, uneven surfaces, and even hills irritated his arthritic knees. I could fall down a manhole cover tomorrow but, so far, staying on flat, paved roads has allowed me to put down more pain-free miles than I have in the last 4 years.

I do not agree with the authors interpretations/suggestions/conclusions but leg stiffness is interesting .

Leg Stiffness Paradox is about all I got out of that article

The softer the surface the stiffer the leg.

The harder the surface the less stiff the leg.

Ed's knees

No doubt flat smooth hard worked for Ed but he did have chronic knee issues. Pretty sure Ed's knee issues started after age 70, first his left then his right . He had been running flat smooth hard for a long time by then. WAG knee issues can occur on any surface.

So what about tendon stiffness? Would really like to find a study that looked into how/if surface hardness impacts tendon stiffness measured using Baar's stuff (number of crosslinks) in the tendon/muscle interface.

My plan is as always evolving . The sand worked great but I got tired of same old thing. The hilly trail walk downhills run flats and uphills probably caused my quad tendonitis but WAG I went too much too fast.

Year round :

Sand slogging very soft uneven surface / stiff legs

Trail running medium hard uneven surface/ less stiff legs

Track fast running semi hard even surface/ least stiff legs

All with good reactivity iow not running on tired legs .

And tendon the tendons with hydrolyzed collagen and vitamin C and the isometric stuff to reduce tendon stiffness on the muscle end. Morning after that 10x300 my knees are happy;)

*Week 497*

Greetings, 50+ers!

Thanks for the accolades regarding keeping the thread going; it has honestly been an easy thing to do because of you all and has for most weeks become something of a Sunday morning ritual. I like (for better or worse) being able to reflect on the previous week and then get some motivation from you all to never give up hope. It's been a while since I've been in the right running/training mindset and "bodyset", but I keep the faith that it'll turn around at some point.

Been a better week than last, had a good run/walk session and some decent fast walks this week covering about 22 miles. On a couple of the days, the toes did complain a bit when I'd get over an hour in, but for the most part things went pretty well. The lower back, in particular, has not been stiffening up as badly, though the right hip is still giving me some issues. Also a broken record that I need to be more intentional in doing those ancillary exercises. Hats off to KPdx (and others) for getting in the groove and keeping with it.

Great to see some solid time-trials. It'll be even better when we get out of this pandemic and see some real races as they've been doing with some of the elites (e.g.-Valencia.....Holy Moses!)

OK. That's it from the Bluegrass. Hope things are going well in your neck of the woods. Around here, positivity rates continue to climb; I'm being fairly vigilante. Stay safe out there!

All the Best!

Happy December and meteorological winter, 50+ers! I’ve enjoyed reading the shoe discussions of late as I am of a mind to move on from the Nike Free after many years. You have given me some good food for thought. Regarding the surfaces we choose to run on, I was an avid trail runner who now restricts myself to mostly flat pavement. Among the benefits is I haven’t fallen while running in several years (an important consideration for an older runner).

This week’s running was impacted by a serious storm yesterday, so I fell short of my 20 mile weekly goal. But I’m sure the extra day off was beneficial. Anyway, the storm has moved on allowing me to resume my running ritual today, though I may have to navigate some icy surfaces. Life is good!

Sun: 50’ CR; body wt ex + med ball routine

Mon: off

Tues: 52’ CR; body wt ex

Wed: off

Thu: 52’ runs (3); 16 oz curls

Fri - Sat: off

Best to most!

LucKY -- Good to see your mojo returning. You logged a few more miles than I did, ha!

RE: Running surfaces. Intuitively, uneven trails would seem to be help overall strength and agility, but twisting an ankle or falling is riskier with age. I usually run on unpaved road shoulders. This week I was on the canal path -- soft crushed stone, groomed, safe.

Finally back to a 3-run week! I'm looking to maintain 5-5-10 or 5-5-5 through the winter. And, I hope, deal with the holiday weight gain.

M61, 5'11", 176 lbs

NOV 29 - DEC 5, 2020

Sun- Off

Mon- Off

Tues- 5 miles @ 9:08/mi

Wed- Off

Thur- 4 miles @ moderate effort

Fri- Off

Sat- 10 miles (2.5mi segments @ 8:53, 8:48, 8:40, 8:18 pace)

TOTAL - 19.0 MILES

With the idea of running one more marathon despite chronic knee issues, I'm revisiting my 2017 marathon prep. I reached my goal of sub-8:00/mi pace, off very low mileage, by including a weekly long run starting eight weeks before the marathon.

After establishing a 12-week "base" of 13 miles per week, here are the 16 weeks leading up to the marathon (20 mpw avg, never running on consecutive days). Weekly totals, with "long run" details:

21

12

20

15

21

15 -- (15 @ 8.44/mi -- only run)

4

11

33 -- (18 @ 8:18/mi)

31 -- (20 @ 8:18/mi)

28 -- (15 @ 7:42/mi)

33 -- (23 @ 8:48/mi)

42 -- (20 @ 7:52/mi)

26 -- (15 @ 7:30/mi)

18

4, plus Marathon @ 7:51/mi

It was during those last few weeks that I first started posting here. I recall getting some snickers for my longs runs being such a huge proportion of my total mileage. But there was method to my madness, ha!

The big question, though: Being older and with knee issues, will I be able to ramp up the mileage for two months? Ibuprofen?

Have a great week. Be safe. Be well.

No ibu.

Like the Best to Most Guy I get concerned about falling. Saturdays I am now off at 7:00 am for a Boise foothills trail run. It is dark at that time for thr first half hour or so. Temperatures below freezing. There are stone, and frozen bike ruts in spots, so you have to stay on your toes (pun intended). Also, following too close to my running partners obscures the surface ahead. I back off the pace on the rocky sections, and make sure I am lifting the knees just a tad higher. Still, I fall at least once a season, but still bounce well.

Decent week, but training too general to warrant a breakdown. Covered 42 Igy miles: 20 running, 4 walking, 2 hours spin biking, 2,000 yards swimming, and 2 sessions of weights and exercises. That is the best week since the pre-Covid outbreak. I am getting into an exercise routine that fits my now retirement schedule. Hopefully I can maintain the enthusiasm to continue to increase the workload.

Have a good week.

Igy

My thanks for all the congratulations on my mile TT last weekend. It was both fun and a reality check on the aging process that 6:20/mile now is a maximum intensity effort, when a dozen years ago I could run an 8k at 6 flat pace. However, I do feel like I have substantial room to improve my current fitness, and a 6 flat a couple of months from now doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.

I took it easy the early part of the week for recovery and ended at 22 miles plus paddling once -

M- 5mi walk with strides

T- rest

W- 4mi easy run 8:50/mi; 2mi paddle

Th- rest

F- rest (plus 2-1/2hr "remove a tree stump" workout)

S- 7mi trails with my son 8:36/mi

Su- 6mi hills easy 9:44/mi

Happy holidays and good running to all!

F- rest (plus 2-1/2hr "remove a tree stump" workout)?

Mo 8x500m with last 150m uphill with 200 m jog

Tu 1 h jumps and drills uphill, rubber legs

We 7.5 miles easy, 5x100m accels

Th 7 miles with 10km in 7:45 min/mile

Fr 7 miles recovery, 5x100m accels

Sa 7 miles with 10x38 s with jog back

Su 1:25 h recovery pace

Cumulative fatigue kicked in after 5 weeks with no day off. I am carefully limiting the intensity that I can continue and not go broke (is that correct English?). The legs feel the same everyday. Not fresh at all but they can do it. You know that feeling, dont you??.

Respect to Idaho. I am remembering what you went through and now doing cool sport.

Have fun alltogether, stay safe.

lucKY: Glad to see you getting out there for more miles.

Allen1959: Yay for breaking out of those 1 day weeks!

Mon = 4 miles greenway

Tue = 4 miles greenway

Wed = 4 miles greenway

Thr = 4 miles greenway

Fri = 4 miles Treadmill, hard rain out, dark, cold, etc...

Sat = 4 miles Civic Center parking lot

Sun = 4 miles AMC parking lot

Total = 28

OK week. Like so many others, I’m getting frustrated with how slow I have to go using the Maffetone method. This is a known frustration that is well documented with this method.

Everyone says to stay with it, that it will get better. Although I am semi-dense with training methodologies, I’m not totally oblivious. As best as I can figure: you’ve got to run a LOT of miles for Maffetone to work. If you look at the folks using it, a huge majority of them are either marathoner’s or, more commonly, ultra-marathoners.

I am FAR from being a marathoner, and even more removed from being an ultra-marathoner.

I wanted to try this system since I’ve had calf and hip problems and this system did let me run while these things got better.

But, simply put: Running this slowly all the time is driving me bonkers! So I’ll be modifying a bit starting next week.

Have a good one.

OG I almost suggested this last week;) sub 6 at 70 would be way cool

I love it when I do something stupid and it works out;)

quad tendonitis is not yet 100 percent but getting better so testing it 10x300 was stupid but worked out and gave me a nice shot of motivation.

so I am doing sand slogging 20 to 30 minutes and some run / walk on hard surface

with plans to reintroduce my hilly trail run/walk next month as I want to make sure I am 100 percent before doing these. Also will try and ad my 4x30 sec deals .

Lots of bike riding going faster enjoying this

walking always

Baar tendon stuff doing this stuff my upper hs and calfs good stuff.