Official Russia vs Ukraine War Thread

There is no excuse for war crimes. Period.

There is a difference between a "war crime", which has specific definition in International Law, vs. actions found opprobrious. They are not equivalent.

It is also important to separate fact from propaganda.

We can be certain people are dead, beyond that, we have claims without much substantiation.

If you fail to do that, you're on the fast track to enabling war crimes yourself. Like posters here who, in all seriousness, have called for the extermination of 144 million people. This is from a place of anger, but the lunacy of this shows complete lack of rational thought.

Nobody likes to be wrong. But that is wrong. I replaces a pile of bodies with a mountain range of bodies.

Selective Bias in Western MSM gives a Megaphone on "11" to Ukraine claims with nary a fact check, while the converse is true with regard to Russian claims.

The Russians have their Propaganda, and the West and Ukraine does to. When was the last time you saw a count on Ukraine military casualties? They are few and far between, and those that exist strain belief.

Public Opinion is a force which is shaped for gain of others. The rich and powerful have been lobbying and buying and controlling news outlets for this purpose for as long as there have been assemblies and language.

Both sides in this conflict have been committing horrible acts.

You can be 100% certain some of the dead in Bucha (and elsewhere), who look to have been recently executed judging from the state of the bodies, were shot by the Ukraine side for being "Russian Collaborators" - and the death then held up as an example of Russian genocide.

Not offered as excuse for any death, even one being too much, but it is not as black and white as you're told - or want to believe.

The only thing I'm 100% certain of, is that there is no way for you to be 100% certain of this claim unless you were the one doing the shooting.

What would be the difference between the two sides?

1- One side is not physically on their own side. Unprovoked, they invaded the other side.

2- One side is killing civilians. The other side is not killing civilians.

A 4 year old can understand this. it’s amazing you and others are struggling with it.

Which is exactly my point.

Russia never did, or showed any intention to do, anything similar, in Ukraine, or anywhere.

Putin's little ego was deeply hurt when his stormtroopers were not meet by groveling Ukrainians on their knees holding out flowers to give to Deer Vlad.

newsweek.com

Putin 'Went Crazy' When Not 'Met With Flowers' in Ukraine: Exiled Oligarch

The billionaire said the Russian president "started bombing Kharkiv and Kyiv" after his invasion didn't get a friendly reception from Ukrainians.

Link:www.newsweek.com/putin-went-crazy-when...

Ok. Would you be happier if everyone wrote, "there is evidence that it is likely" that Russian troops committed war crimes in Ukraine, just like they did in Chechnya, Georgia, and Crimea? Does that soothe your delicate ego?

Both sides are killing civilians.

Though we can agree Russians are killing more.

As to "unprovoked", you can debate cause and effect all day. Every event is the result of many prior events.

4 year-olds think they understand things they do not.

This conflict (and nearly everything) is not distilled into a simple good-vs-evil paradigm.

It's amazing you and others are struggling with that.

My ego is not delicate and is immaterial.

The ethical argument advanced is we not state claims as facts, and not present facts selectively. When we do so, we distort perception of events.

Biased reporting is propaganda's kissing cousin.

Look at you, Mr. Neutral opinion, who can speak to Russia's intentions.

The people of Grozny and Mariupol might disagree. Also, Holodomor was a thing.

A claim for which there is no evidence.

Yes, by more you likely mean many orders of magnitude more.

If I call you an idiot and you shoot me in the face, were you provoked? Or are you just a thug with anger management issues? How exactly did Ukraine provoke anybody? By electing someone who campaigned on an anti-war platform and who may have leaned more towards Europe than Russia?

What profound insight! You can come up with a thousand reasons why Russia was somehow justified in invading Ukraine, but anybody with more than 3 functioning brain cells can see that they're all BS excuses. Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin is an authoritarian bully who thought he could get away with it.

Here's a hint. The side committing genocide is the evil one. The side that bombed a theater full of civilians is the evil one. The side shooting thermobaric rockets is the evil one. The side that used chemical weapons in Syria is the evil one. The side that arrested more than 10,000 of their own citizens for protesting The War of Russian Aggression is the evil one. The side that bombed four of their own apartment buildings killing more than 300 people is the evil one. But Ukraine talked about joining NATO, so they're also evil.

It is amazing that you and others are struggling with that.

This ^

The only people that are siding with Russia are Russian trolls and Trumpettes.

Precious Roy - What universe are you living in?

Stop your feminine whining. Your blubbering on here has gotten obnoxious. Tell Pelosi, Schumer, McConnell and Biden to stop buying extra weapons and ammunition from U.S. weapon manufactures. Tell U.S. Executive Branch to cease sending weapons and ammunition to Ukraine. Tell U.S. to stop provoking Russia by acting as Forward Observer for Ukrainian military. Tell Zelenskyy to resign then this will all be over. Hello genius. What did you think would occur when Biden Pelosi Schumer and McConnell sent C-130s full of stingers, javelins and AT-4s to Ukraine? I told and the other Wolf Blitzer, Anderson Cooper and Don Lemon fans that Russia would match U.S. escalation with more severe artillery and bombing missions. Now you are crying about what I told you would occur.

You'll try to drink the creators of vodka under the table??? Good luck with that!

Genocide is about the number of victims, but even more it is about itentions.

Yes, many victims in your examples, but 1. with no intention/ without the aim of destroying the nation or group.

2. No matter how huge number of victims, it was not even close to destroying whole nations.

In Grozny, the high count of victims and level of destruction was largely influenced by defender's use of civilian objects for combat.

We will have to wait for full picture of Mariupol.

On Holodomor, there is still ongoing debate. Looks to me like tragic sequence of events, within unfavorable circumstances, not as an action against any nation, or group. It wasn't Russia at the time, it was Soviet Union, Not even the "leader" of Soviet Union was Russian - Stalin was Georgian. As a member of Soviet Union, I guess Ukraine had own people at top level of Soviet leadership.

I think you're messed up your script. If you want to bat-signal the incel crowd on letsrun, you'll need to post this to the main page. Just be sure to include the words "Molly Seidel" or "Marry Cain".

The people committing genocide don't get to decide the definition.