Charlie wrote:
Big difference between a specific piece of advice and personalized coaching.
That was exactly my point. Generalized information, like what you often post, is welcomed and typically insightful. However, that is not the same as offering someone a specific workout or training program with little to no knowledge of the recipient’s background. Unfortunately we have all seen that here.
Coach X wrote:
Charlie wrote:
Big difference between a specific piece of advice and personalized coaching.
That was exactly my point. Generalized information, like what you often post, is welcomed and typically insightful. However, that is not the same as offering someone a specific workout or training program with little to no knowledge of the recipient’s background. Unfortunately we have all seen that here.
That is good generic advice, but somewhat difficult to parse, since there are plenty of "specific workouts" that virtually every experienced athlete or coach have experience with as a component of training; e.g. if I mention that I am focusing on preparing for a 5k and someone suggests doing 12x400 at 3k pace with interval and recovery times approximately equal as a good workout to include in the 5k build up, that may be a useful suggestion even if they know nothing about my running background. Your statement also implies that books by coaches ranging from Lydiard to Pete Magill laying out training plans are not useful guides because the authors have no idea of the readers' background. Your concept is reasonable but tough to use to draw a line between helpful and unhelpful training input.
Coach X wrote:
Charlie wrote:
Big difference between a specific piece of advice and personalized coaching.
However, that is not the same as offering someone a specific workout or training program with little to no knowledge of the recipient’s background. Unfortunately we have all seen that here.
Hmmm, seems to me very little of that. I write workouts for a group of masters athletes, the distances, and recovery are all specified. Pace by current condition. I generally use the nomenclature of Daniels and/or Tinman, and each athlete adjusts to their own ability. For example, this morning was 2 mile warm-up, 5 x 900 meters Critical Velocity Pace with 100m walk, followed by a mile cool down. On the fast end the pace was 6:40/mile and on the slow end 10:00/mile. Each of these athletes, like this thread, are over 50. The coaching, like the posts here, are voluntary, no money exchanges hands, and we are working toward a common goal. This morning, one athlete did some drill following warm-up and ran the workout on the road as 5:00 on and 1:00 off. Monday it was 8 x 400m Repetition Pace, sporting a niggle, I did four and called it good.
Igy
a couple random thoughts/opinions on the subject of whitlock and training advice, since i have little to offer as far as my training the last few weeks (after a great july/august, and most of september, i've been hobbled a bit by minor aches, just now back to building up again since there is no real hurry).
as far as advice, i'm with charlie--i'm pretty circumspect (to the point of obstinacy) about whose advice i'll actually follow, but i'll listen to virtually anyone's; and, i'll dole it out to anyone who'll listen to me but will always recommend reciprocal circumspection.
i never met ed or earl, but i think of them as the trailblazers they are, setting standards that most of us can only hope to approach. however, like any trailblazers, they are beset by the limitations of experience (or lack of), and, at times, perspective (it's not like they could look to some other 85 year old's training logs and think "i could/should do that"). that's not a criticism, but a simple fact. read about the great milers of way back, like a mel sheppard or paavo nurmi in the early 1900s, you can't help but admire and idolize them. but would you train like them? doubtfully, because the sport has come so far in the last 100 years. i think whitlock and fee, and shaheed after them, and others before them, are laying/have laid the groundwork for masters athletics for years to come, but you better bank on evolution, because in the scheme of things, masters running is very much in its adolescence (irony intended). it's quite possible whitlock's strategies, however tried and true they were for him, may get blown out of the water in the next few decades. some of the posters here may be able to scoff at ed's marks when they're 85 (while actually getting beat!), in the same way a mid-20s socal cush could look at shepperd or nurmi and think (incorrectly) had i just been born in 1900, i coulda been a contender...
that's my story and i'm sticking to it.
carpe crepusculum,
cush
old guy II wrote:
Coach X wrote:
That was exactly my point. Generalized information, like what you often post, is welcomed and typically insightful. However, that is not the same as offering someone a specific workout or training program with little to no knowledge of the recipient’s background. Unfortunately we have all seen that here.
That is good generic advice, but somewhat difficult to parse, since there are plenty of "specific workouts" that virtually every experienced athlete or coach have experience with as a component of training; e.g. if I mention that I am focusing on preparing for a 5k and someone suggests doing 12x400 at 3k pace with interval and recovery times approximately equal as a good workout to include in the 5k build up, that may be a useful suggestion even if they know nothing about my running background. Your statement also implies that books by coaches ranging from Lydiard to Pete Magill laying out training plans are not useful guides because the authors have no idea of the readers' background. Your concept is reasonable but tough to use to draw a line between helpful and unhelpful training input.
I’m referring to workouts like 6x1k @ 3:30. We have seen such recommendations offered here to the general population in the not too distant past. That workout would have a very different training affect on someone whose date pace for 1 mile was 4:20 versus someone at 7:00. Offering workouts like that to someone that you know little about is irresponsible.
When do one start to compete in the 50-54 age group officialy?
1. januar in the year you will become 50, or one needs to wait for the actual 50th birthday?
Coach X wrote:
old guy II wrote:
That is good generic advice, but somewhat difficult to parse, since there are plenty of "specific workouts" that virtually every experienced athlete or coach have experience with as a component of training; e.g. if I mention that I am focusing on preparing for a 5k and someone suggests doing 12x400 at 3k pace with interval and recovery times approximately equal as a good workout to include in the 5k build up, that may be a useful suggestion even if they know nothing about my running background. Your statement also implies that books by coaches ranging from Lydiard to Pete Magill laying out training plans are not useful guides because the authors have no idea of the readers' background. Your concept is reasonable but tough to use to draw a line between helpful and unhelpful training input.
I’m referring to workouts like 6x1k @ 3:30. We have seen such recommendations offered here to the general population in the not too distant past. That workout would have a very different training affect on someone whose date pace for 1 mile was 4:20 versus someone at 7:00. Offering workouts like that to someone that you know little about is irresponsible.
For sure, someone at 7:00 mike could not do one, but I get your point.
Loppas wrote:
When do one start to compete in the 50-54 age group officialy?
1. januar in the year you will become 50, or one needs to wait for the actual 50th birthday?
Senior Games in year you turn 50, USATF the birthday.....
Coach X wrote:
old guy II wrote:
That is good generic advice, but somewhat difficult to parse, since there are plenty of "specific workouts" that virtually every experienced athlete or coach have experience with as a component of training; e.g. if I mention that I am focusing on preparing for a 5k and someone suggests doing 12x400 at 3k pace with interval and recovery times approximately equal as a good workout to include in the 5k build up, that may be a useful suggestion even if they know nothing about my running background. Your statement also implies that books by coaches ranging from Lydiard to Pete Magill laying out training plans are not useful guides because the authors have no idea of the readers' background. Your concept is reasonable but tough to use to draw a line between helpful and unhelpful training input.
I’m referring to workouts like 6x1k @ 3:30. We have seen such recommendations offered here to the general population in the not too distant past. That workout would have a very different training affect on someone whose date pace for 1 mile was 4:20 versus someone at 7:00. Offering workouts like that to someone that you know little about is irresponsible.
I've been MIA lately and did not see that. Of course such a workout is impossible for a 7:00 miler, but maybe you looked at that out of context. Or maybe the advice was simply out of whack or not explained well. There is some armchair coaching here in this thread, but we are adults and need to take any of that with a grain of salt. Sometimes even if a poster asks a specific question.
Really enjoyed this short docu on BTC M5000 with Mo,Woody,Centro,Lomong lots of interesting real life personality. Makes me want to suffer another 5000 this year.
Coach X wrote:
old guy II wrote:
That is good generic advice, but somewhat difficult to parse, since there are plenty of "specific workouts" that virtually every experienced athlete or coach have experience with as a component of training; e.g. if I mention that I am focusing on preparing for a 5k and someone suggests doing 12x400 at 3k pace with interval and recovery times approximately equal as a good workout to include in the 5k build up, that may be a useful suggestion even if they know nothing about my running background. Your statement also implies that books by coaches ranging from Lydiard to Pete Magill laying out training plans are not useful guides because the authors have no idea of the readers' background. Your concept is reasonable but tough to use to draw a line between helpful and unhelpful training input.
I’m referring to workouts like 6x1k @ 3:30. We have seen such recommendations offered here to the general population in the not too distant past. That workout would have a very different training affect on someone whose date pace for 1 mile was 4:20 versus someone at 7:00. Offering workouts like that to someone that you know little about is irresponsible.
FYI - All my books include pace tables so that athletes are training at paces roughly equivalent to their conditioning. And most "paces" are simply ways of leading each runner to the correct "effort" to stimulate the targeted muscle fibers and energy systems--this is the reason that the majority of my rep training is given in minutes (not distances) and that the recovery interval is treated as equally important, because different recovery intervals lead to different targeted fibers and energy systems. Also, I think a lot of books (mine, certainly) leave a lot of wiggle room for each runner based upon their fitness, experience, age, etc.
Something that happened to me quite regularly when I was doing online (skype) coaching was that athletes would approach me after using the programs in my book. They'd have improved, for example, their 5K time by 2-3 minutes before hitting a plateau, and they'd want personal coaching in order to stay on the same trajectory, wanting another 2-3-minute improvement in 3-6 months. I could usually pinch another 30-60 seconds off their times, but beyond that ... well, the book-training had already brought them most of the way to their current potential.
Bottom line: Nothing beats a good personal coach, but a good plan from a book beats a bad coach. ;-)
It's good to hear from you again, Pete! Hope you're doing well. Now we need a chapter on how to comeback from surgery!
My first update on how my achilles surgery went. This is what was done...
"The Tenex Procedure is a new, state-of-the-art, minimally invasive surgical procedure for unresponsive Achilles tendon pain. Achilles tendon pain is caused by buildup of scar tissue. The Tenex wand is used to remove this scar tissue."
My week started with a Covid test and 3 days of quarantine until the procedure. I was negative. Yesterday started at 5:30am with a small breakfast and a coffee. Then nothing to eat or drink for 8 hours. So I went for a 3 mile walk and waited until my appointment at 12:30. Drove myself to the hospital 15 miles away. Got all checked in thru the usual admittance process. Dr. Simons started at about 1:45 and ended about 30 minutes later. I could hear a lot of work going on but couldn't see as I was on my stomach. It was 100% pain free. Everything was numbed up real good! They fitted me with a full length boot then wheeled me back to my original room, got dressed and released at 3:30. Drove myself home with no problem. Still zero pain. There was some pain overnite but not too bad. I'm only taking Tylenol to manage the pain as I declined a stronger prescription. I checked it out for the first time this morning and it looked better then I thought it would. Just a few holes/tiny incisions and blood. No stitches. Sitting here right now there is still zero pain.
I'll be in the boot for two weeks then a follow-up appt. Dr. Simons approved biking in a boot so I'll get my bike setup on my indoor trainer today. I need to change out my leftside pedal.
So thats it. It was basically a pain free procedure that took 3 hours of my time. After insurance my cost was just over $500 out of pocket. I plan on going back to work Monday. Let the healing begin!
Have a good run,
Dave
terrific! [i mean, as having surgery goes]. Hope your pain stays manageable, and recovery goes well.
--dave
Dave,
That sounds very encouraging. You drove yourself home from the procedure--was it on your right or left leg, and were you driving with the other leg?
I hope you have a quick recovery, and please keep us posted on your progress.
Great news, Dave! Can you walk in the boot without crutches? Our dr said to minimize weight bearing for 2 weeks. Are you supposed to do PT?
That sounds like the process is going really well. Let us know if your doctor gives you any description of what he removed and from where on your tendon after your next visit to him.
dhaaga wrote:
terrific! [i mean, as having surgery goes]. Hope your pain stays manageable, and recovery goes well.
--dave
Thanks Dave! So far so good.
amkelley wrote:
Dave,
That sounds very encouraging. You drove yourself home from the procedure--was it on your right or left leg, and were you driving with the other leg?
I hope you have a quick recovery, and please keep us posted on your progress.
Amy, The left foot is in a boot and I drive with with my right foot. Since I was under no meds or sedation, they approved me driving home. It was no problem. Probably not possible if it was the other way around!
SCgal wrote:
Great news, Dave! Can you walk in the boot without crutches? Our dr said to minimize weight bearing for 2 weeks. Are you supposed to do PT?
Cindy, Walking is very manageable without crutches. I'll not be doing much this weekend and keeping mostly off of it. Elevating (ie: Lazy Boy recliner!). My Dr. didn't mention staying off of it. PT will be an important step and start in two weeks, if the follow-up evaluation goes well. I'll probably start indoor biking Monday just to burn a few calories and get the HR up!
old guy II wrote:
That sounds like the process is going really well. Let us know if your doctor gives you any description of what he removed and from where on your tendon after your next visit to him.
From what I understand, he broke down and removed scar tissue. Which from what I understand, was causing the pain every time I ran. So in theory without this scar tissue present, there shouldn't be any pain, right?
Dave
Hi Dave,
wish you a good recovery.
Would be very interesting to keep reading from you regularly.
BR
Yes, best with the recovery Dave.
Racerdb wrote:
My first update on how my achilles surgery went. This is what was done...
Glad it went well. No need to rush recovery since aint jack going on right now. Perfect time to get it done.