50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Mopac wrote:

Gotta ask the question. If you think this is a good idea for Allen59 with his chronic injuries then perhaps a good method for you too?

Yes, I am always asking myself this question. One problem for me is psychological: when I think back to my best running days, I did not get those results from running slow. So I have no personal history of success with this method. My success, such as it was, was usually due to lots of long tempo runs which helped me learn to maintain a hard pace. And a little speedwork, but I have always had enough natural speed to get by.

But now I really can't do long tempo runs, and speedwork is out of the question, so what is left to me? As Sherlock Holmes said, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." If you can't believe the world's greatest fictional detective, who can you believe?

By the way, I agree with all of your examples of stocky but successful middle-distance runners, and of course Zatopek even won the Olympic marathon gold. I have always said, your engine is the most important piece of the machine. However...force-weight ratios matter a lot in running, so if you can be lighter, that is usually a good idea, and the longer your race, the better an idea it is.

dhaaga wrote:

you might be thinking of Francis Burdett? Similar story anyway, lots of very slow training runs and high mileage, outstanding racing as a master.

dhaaga, yes! I think that's the guy, Francis Burdett.

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

Are you sure you wouldn't benefit from some "ancillary exercises, stretching, etc."? ...

I'm sure there are a ton of other things you could do that might be more on point for your particular issues, but maybe surgery should also be on your short list.

Undoubtedly there are exercises that would help. After the diagnosis, I followed up with a few physical therapy sessions. The PT prescribed a routine that required 40 minutes twice a day. I accepted long ago that I'm not willing to do that, or even a fraction of that. I was highly motivated this last time, anxious to return to racing, and still couldn't muster the discipline to do it.

Surgery is an option, but would require severing the quadriceps tendons, grinding off the spurs, then mechanically re-attaching the tendon (by drilling a hole in the patella, I think). No thanks.

BTW, my wife also resorts to all fours to ascend our stairs, so it's a "normal" thing here. Ha! And the stairs aren't particularly steep -- 9-inch treads, 9-inch risers. Just a couple oldsters in an old house (1832).

Cavorty wrote:

the last time I was that weight would have been when I was 15/16 years old...

Well, this morning I was 156 pounds, a weight I was probably last at when I was 15-16 years old (withe the possible exception of Army basic training when they starved me down to a skeleton at age 33--yes, that was way old to join the military, but I did it, and I was the third-best runner in my platoon of 50 men, almost everyone else age 18).

So I hear all you guys who are saying it's impossible for you to get down to your youthful weights, but I'm not sure I believe you, because I have done it myself. Not saying it's easy.

Body composition is one complication. When you were 15-16, especially if you were a runner, you probably had low bodyfat and no visceral fat (fat wrapped around your internal organs) at all. Any weight you had was muscle and bone. It's really hard to restore that lean muscular young-man body type, with low bodyfat and no visceral fat. (We won't even get into the testosterone issue.)

Now at 156, even though I have been doing lots of strengthening, I still have a girdle of old-man fat around my waist ("love handles") and some loose skin on my stomach with subcutaneous fat beneath. Most likely there is some visceral fat around my organs that wasn't there when I was 15-16 years old.

But frankly I'm still early in the process of getting back my old body. I started at 184 pounds on Jan. 1, and I have only completed the first phase, which was getting down to my exact target weight of 156 (18.5 BMI, the lowest rung of "normal").

The next phase is to stay at 156, while doing lots of strength work to regain muscle and lose the fat that is still hanging around my midsection. In other words, now it's time to work on body composition.

When I was 15, I showed up for cross country with no previous training, and I ran a varsity time in my very first race, on a strong team (Pete Pfitzinger was our #1). Then I faded away because my body couldn't take the training and I was constantly injured. (We spent a ton of time doing 440 intervals on the track, which was a big thing in those days. I think the pounding of constant speedwork may have been a factor in my injuries.)

There was something about my 15-year-old body that made me fast, even for a 15-year-old, and I have to respect that.

However, to be perfectly honest, there was also something about my 15-year-old body that made me injury-prone, and you could argue that more muscle (=more weight) would have helped me stay in the game. This is a possibility, although I tend to believe the real culprit is abnormalities in the structure of my right leg (knee and hip especially). In this interpretation, more muscle might help cushion the joints, but any additional weight would also add to the stress on the joints. I just don't know.

Anyway, looking in the mirror right now, I look good. I do. My wife agrees, and she didn't want me to lose the weight in the first place. I don't look too skinny. I look like a runner. And that's a start.

Reminds me of the old Beatles song, "Drive My Car":

I told the girl I can start right away

And she said, "listen, babe, I got something to say

I got no car and it's breaking my heart

But I've found a driver and that's a start

Allen1959 wrote:

Undoubtedly there are exercises that would help. After the diagnosis, I followed up with a few physical therapy sessions. The PT prescribed a routine that required 40 minutes twice a day. I accepted long ago that I'm not willing to do that, or even a fraction of that. I was highly motivated this last time, anxious to return to racing, and still couldn't muster the discipline to do it.

Surgery is an option, but would require severing the quadriceps tendons, grinding off the spurs, then mechanically re-attaching the tendon (by drilling a hole in the patella, I think). No thanks.

BTW, my wife also resorts to all fours to ascend our stairs, so it's a "normal" thing here. Ha! And the stairs aren't particularly steep -- 9-inch treads, 9-inch risers. Just a couple oldsters in an old house (1832).

1. You have to do your PT routine. That's a fact. It doesn't matter whether you want to do it or not. Look at all the non-running crap I do. Do I want to do it? No. I just do it anyway. I play fine tunes on Youtube to ease the tedium.

2. Regarding surgery: If it has good odds of working, you should consider it very seriously. On Sunday I ran into an old acquaintance at the track, Buddy Bostick. Back in the day he ran a 4:02 mile. Now he is 63 or 64 and just had a complete knee replacement. He was at the track to try running. I couldn't even tell he had a knee replacement. He looked fine. He did a lap at 11:00 mile pace, then a lap at 10:00 mile pace. He still looked like a runner. And this may have been his first time out on the track, from what he said. So he will get better.

3. I'm sure your 1832 house is great, but if you and your poor spouse have to go up the stairs on all fours, maybe it's time to think about a change. We bought our current house in 1996 and it was a miserable little bungalow with one bathroom in a historic old seaside town full of mansions (one of the best of which I lived in as a boy). I wanted something better than what I got but with prices so high, it was all I could afford. Years passed, and we added another wing with a second bathroom. We decided one-story living made this a good house for us to age in place. Everything is on one level. Nobody has to use mountaineering gear to get to the bedroom. So just a thought.

4. I apologize for posting too much, but I am stuck at home 24/7 with no social life, what else am I going to do.

I have lost some muscle but probably about the same body fat. Been at 130 for a few years. Low carb time restricted eating works for me.

Age 43 135lbs

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iKf5yIIVHeXm4VBN4PUEUaIqsjs6OFdv/view?usp=sharing

Age 63 130lbs

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19zTZFYcflIOZUbIacuoEjlE-vKeBFJD6/view?usp=sharing

Charlie -- - Lean and mean in those shots. My wife might say deathly thin, but it's a look I never quite achieved. Sometimes I fought against it -- was motivated to lift and fill out some as I re-entered the dating scene in my 30s. Then ended up with a skinny runner, who would have understood "the lean look," ha!

Muddy Girl, that's a great story. I'm still amazed you could bounce back after that bike accident not so long ago.

Brittle, Dick Beardsley was posting on this thread for a while. That was after his double knee replacement. His training was going great. Until it wasn't.

You're right about 155 at age 17 being very different from 155 at 61. I hope to muster enough discipline to at least include some upper body work, even five-minutes every other day would help. I managed to do that in my 40s. Five minutes for a short dumbbell routine, crunches. In my 50s, I added planks and one-foot balancing, but static exercises are particularly difficult for me, mentally.

I think my lack of discipline stems from a childhood where I could be moderately successful at many things without really working hard. Second chair in orchestra without practicing; third board on chess "team" without learning any openings (had to think "hard" at the start of every game!); third in graduating class, top 1% SAT without studying; art scholarship to RIT without drawing/painting outside of class; decent running results on ultra low mileage ... "Good" at lots of things, but not disciplined enough to become accomplished at anything.

Mopac, you listed a bunch of my idols from back in the day. It was always reassuring as a youth to see "heavier" guys like me racing so well!

What is it with all the runner porn these days?

First we had a now-banned photo of youthful Igy laying cable in the woods, then some cheesecake shots of Allen1959, and now Charlie.

You guys are lucky I don't know how to take a selfie with my phone, let alone post it to LRC, or the studliness might break your monitors.

I could ask my wife for help, but I can guess how that conversation would go:

Brittle: Honey, would you mind taking a few photos of me showing a lot of skin?

Mrs. Brittle: Why?

Brittle: Um, it's just that, I was chatting online, and ah, I wanted to show them what I looked like...

Mrs. Brittle storms out of the room to call a lawyer.

[quote]Allen1959 wrote:

"Good" at lots of things, but not disciplined enough to become accomplished at anything.

Allen, obviously you are a talented guy, and handsome too according to the photos, but a little discipline goes a long way in PT. Do your running self a favor and just do half or a quarter of the routine you were given by a medical professional. I can't believe you lack even that much discipline. Play fun music that you like to pass the time. Reward yourself afterward with a snack that you like. Set up a system that works, follow the system, and do what it takes.

Or crawl around the house like a giant white-bearded spider and get put in a home by your well-meaning relatives who are tired of averting their eyes whenever you creep by. It's your choice.

SCgal wrote:

After I'd walked about a mile, a man on a bike mountain bike who wasn't racing but was pacing a friend, asked if I'd like to ride his bike to finish the race. I was shocked but my reaction was "Yes!". He lowered the seat as far as it would go and I took off. I didn't know how to shift the gears but I thought I could figure it out along the way.

What a wonderful report! I don’t think I’d have the presence of mind to either offer or accept a bike in that situation. Good on you!

dhaaga wrote:

you might be thinking of Francis Burdett? Similar story anyway, lots of very slow training runs and high mileage, outstanding racing as a master.

Here’s the thing about Burdett, Whitlock, Dykes ... they race a LOT and at a variety of distances. Why do a speed workout every week when you can just run a race where you have to be speedy? Ed stayed fast because he was always entering mile and 5k races.

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

What is it with all the runner porn these days?

First we had a now-banned photo of youthful Igy laying cable in the woods, then some cheesecake shots of Allen1959, and now Charlie.

You cannot undo seeing those. I was eating lunch when I saw that last photo of Charlie and I lost my appetite. Can somebody get that guy a shirt please?

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

What is it with all the runner porn these days?

First we had a now-banned photo of youthful Igy laying cable in the woods, then some cheesecake shots of Allen1959, and now Charlie.

You guys are lucky I don't know how to take a selfie with my phone, let alone post it to LRC, or the studliness might break your monitors.

You guys should all be glad I don't know how to post photos on Letsrun. I think it'd be fun to compare shots of me running as a porky 22-year-old, as a skinny fast 32-year-old, and as a "light but still fat" 50- to 60-yo.

Or Igy crapping in the woods fifty years older and 30 pounds heavier....consider....?

TUESDAY, August 11, 2020:

- 8 miles running at the track, slow and untimed, 90 F. (“feels like 99”), sunny.

It was easier than you might think. This was a very hot day; I noticed in the early afternoon that it was 97 F. (“feels like 105”). So I waited and didn’t start running until after 6 p.m. Although it was sunny when I started, it was dark when I finished. When I got home and checked the temperature, it had dropped to 84 F. (“feels like 90”), so a lot better conditions than when I started.

That said, it was still my longest run since I was 49, which is a long time ago because I am turning 62 this month. So my body is feeling kind of beat up at the moment. Time for two ibuprofen, a couple of tall glasses of V-8 juice (to replace electrolytes), and a hot shower.

Trying to follow along the thread though it seems the dynamics have changed since there is no racing going on.

I've been running every-other-day for a few weeks. 3-4 miles. 8:00'ish pace feels comfortable. Achilles has been 90-100% good for a long time now. It would be great if I could get to 100% all the time! My PT says that may never happen due to micro tears occurring no matter what I do. Walking, working, running, biking... But it's 1000 times better than it was and I can certainly handle 90%.

I took my first ride on my new road bike yesterday. What a huge difference it was! My old bike is a Trek 720 hybrid. It got me by but it seemed a lot of work just to average 15mph. My new bike is a Trek Domane OCLV Carbon frame. Incredibly light. I averaged 17 mph last nite for 17 miles with little effort.

I've been fortunate to keep my weight down in spite of very little running since the mile champs last August. Weighing in at 170 today, only about 5-6 lbs more than when I was running a lot. I'm 6-2. Sorry, no pics. I like to think my diet has a lot to do with it. Disciplined during the week, throw it out on weekends. Moderation on the craft brews and avoid sugar at all costs.

I'll keep on doing what I'm doing with tons of cross training and building my running up slowly. My training partner made me a plan to follow which gets me to 40mpw by December.

Have a good run,

Dave

8/12/20 645am 61.5 yo male 150lb. After yesterday's light day of spinning bike for 30min then lifted weights about 9 different lifts. Ran easy 1hr on treadmill about 5.5 miles easy. Little lower back tightness on the right.

Cheers to yall.

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

TUESDAY, August 11, 2020:

- 8 miles running at the track, slow and untimed, 90 F. (“feels like 99”), sunny.

I had a moment last night during my run, when I felt a connection with my ancient ancestors.

Just before I left home to go to the track, my son finished grilling some chicken pieces. Unfortunately he had left them in the grill too long and they had gotten badly charred. I said, "Don't worry, I'll eat them," and after breaking off some black carbon I ate a piece. "Save the rest," I said. Then I drank two big glasses of water and headed to the track.

Wouldn't you know it, about 2 miles into my run I could taste the vomit rising in my throat from that carbonized piece of chicken. I had to swallow it back down. I decided if I was going to throw up, so be it, but either way I was going to finish this run.

It was in doubt for a while but the chicken stayed down and I ran another 6 miles before calling it a wrap.

While I was running, I thought: "I am here today because at some time in the distant past, I had an ancestor who could choke down a piece of burnt meat, swallow some water, and go out and fight or flee or hunt or do whatever he had to do, while keeping down that piece of burnt meat. Because he could do that and survived to mate, I can do it now."