50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

KCgeezer wrote:

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

BMI is like age-grading. It's a way to compare apples to oranges.

This is simply not true.

It is true, and in the rest of your post, you basically agreed it was true, when you concluded, "BMI wins when you're looking for a quick and easy way to make comparisons with all the caveats."

Did I say BMI was perfect? No. I said it was a "shorthand way" to make comparisons.

So you and I seem to agree about BMI.

We also agree that Allen59 can and should set his own goals. :-)

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

If you get down to 133, no one will call you chunky.

Although frankly, if you get down to 133, you will have to put up with whatever names people call you, because at 5'11", 133, you won't be winning any bar fights. And you may need your wife's help moving heavy furniture.

Actually, my son at age 40, is 5'11" and 133. In college he was about 3 lbs lighter and was a DII All American in XC his senior year. A couple of years ago he ran his first steeple in 15 yrs and got 2nd at the NZ Masters championships at that weight. He did plenty of work in the weight room in college and never gained a pound. I doubt that anyone calls him anything other than "sir".

At 70 I'm 5'8" and a hefty 128 right now. By the end of the holiday season each year I usually hit the low 130s with some serious dessert eating. Nobody is going to confuse me with an NFL linebacker, but I can still lift our 75lb tandem kayak on and off the car roof with no problem. Back in my Navy Vietnam service, I had to navigate a few bar fights and came out just fine. Some people are just born with a lightweight build and metabolism. As someone said recently, you just need to find you own personal "sweet spot" on training volume and body composition.

I will call you both "sir." :-)

I'm a lover, not a fighter...

Allen1959 wrote:

KC -- Spectacular half marathon and a great write-up. Since you started posting here, it seems you've seen tremendous gains. If you get a chance, could you share a synopsis of your progression -- would love to see that.

Hi Allen -- I didn't see this until I posted the message above. Sure, I'd be happy to synop-size because I think I can keep it short and sweet. I started running four years ago this month after a brief 34-year layoff. I was well into my current remission (which will likely be permanent) and I quickly realized this was a superfun way to help my health. Also, it awoke my long-dormant competitive side. I did a couch-to-5K and then ran a 5K. Four weeks later I ran another. Two months later, another. This was a stretch from October to February so it really forced me to get out there, learn to run in the elements, learn to deal with IT band issues and burning thighs and all that. Going back through my diary, I see that I got out every single day, either an hour of walking or 30-45 minutes of running, without fail. If I were sidelined now and coming back, I would jog on the walking days, 11:00-14:00/mile pace, because I now know the benefits of LSD.

After running 21:05 in my fourth 5K, I said that's it, I want more, and doubled my runs to 6/week, following Matt Fitzgerald's 80/20 plan. Six weeks later I entered a 5K and won in 19:17. Cutting almost 2 minutes was a bigger thrill than winning! My mileage has slowly crept up over three years, from 25 to 35 to 45 to 55 and in my next cycle I will be clocking weeks in the mid-60s, though my coach has me taper once a month. That's the other thing I did, I went out for the local running club and found a coach who was willing to take me on. Nothing too involved, but he fills out my plan for me, we text regularly and do lunch every 2-3 months to talk things over.

From the start, I have read about older runners succumbing to injury so my number-one goal has been to deal proactively with potential injuries. I have a great chiropractor and my wife's long-ago sports-massage training comes in handy. My mantra is enjoy the run. If I'm hurt, I can't enjoy the run. Lastly, I try to learn from what I've done. Case in point, I ran my first two half marathons aspirationally. The VDOT calculator said I should be able to run 6:17 pace for a half based on my speedy 5K. Those races were disasters. This time I relied on my Garmin data and expert counsel. Holding 6:20 for even a few miles was a struggle for me in a flat park on a cool day. Given that and the weather, Kid Coach suggested starting at 6:35-6:40 pace and then, after three miles, going on effort. That was exactly right. Looking back, my effort kept me below 6:30 pace for 11 miles. Then nature set in and I barely had enough for the uphill finish.

So, slowly increased volume while nipping potential injury in the bud, learning from my data, and above all, enjoying the run so much that, for example, today I'm a little stir crazy because I'm not in the park, even though I must rest these bones! Hope that's useful.

Good story. Thanks.

KCgeezer wrote:

SCgal and others may recognize the name Fiona Bayly. I had no idea who she was till I looked at the results, but I saw her on two turnarounds.

She didn’t, but she won the age related going away, no one else even coming close:

https://runsignup.com/Race/Results/40302#resultSetId-207116;perpage:100

As I studied the page I thought, “who would be so hard up to run a half marathon that they’d come out here from New York City?!” And that’s when I looked up multiple USATF masters champ Fiona Bayly...

https://www.facebook.com/fiona.bayly.9/posts/10211729921443038

Excellent race KC - Congratulations! Just looked up your time - That is flying!

It must be fun to be able run a live race again.

BTW, I watched Fiona B. run a 5:22 at the USATF Master's Road mile in 2019 - I think she was second female master's overall. Whew!

On that evening, I had a very disappointing - by my goal/standards- performance over in the men's 60+ division. Still trying to figure out what went 'wrong' almost a year later. Thankfully, there was certified road mile race three weeks later where I was able to shave 00:16 off the Flint 'performance'.

That mile race is still tentatively scheduled for 2020 edition (mid September) as is a little 5K over in Hillsdale, Michigan on Labor Day. It will be my first races since the mile and 1/2 marathon back to backs in South Carolina in February.

I haven't posted in few weeks. I am still training pretty hard in spite of the weather and running solo. (I did finally start running once a week with a 38 year old for 4-5 miles on his way home from work - helps both of us!)

I managed another 55 mile week (#21 in a row since March) with 15% faster miles.

-Last night: up 1.5 miles to our local HS 4x800 with 400 active recovery @ 5K race pace, 1x400, 4x200 at mile pace = active recovery, 8 x100 strides and 2 miles easy to home. I felt it today however, slept in too late and temp had climbed to 87 with a Heat Index of 94. Just ambled a super easy 8 to get my miles in.

Good to read some interesting discussions here. Lastly, I am 5"8 1/2" (lost about 1" off the top thankfully-lol) and am 130-132#. Basically, I eat everything and anything I desire, but struggle to keep my weight up in this hot weather. Drinking fluids by the liter.

Until next time...

KCgeezer wrote:

This is simply not true. BMI is a standard calculation that does not factor for gender or age. And besides, NIH says it’s not the most useful measure for fit people:

https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmicalc.htm

Although BMI can be used for most men and women, it does have some limits:

It may overestimate body fat in athletes and others who have a muscular build.

It may underestimate body fat in older persons and others who have lost muscle.

Thanks KC for this great information.

My doc has been using BMI to determine I am obese! Maybe I should challenge her to an 8k.

Now I just have to convince her that her calculation is off because of my “muscular build”.

??‍♀️

amkelley wrote:

Unfortunately I wear a pretty popular size (men's 7.5-8.0, women's 9.0-9.5) and there don't seem to be any available.

AMK, did I read right that you actually prefer the onesies to the LT2? If so...

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

However, if you really think those body weights are "thin, skinny, deathly thin," and "gaunt" as you wrote, you must have lead bones.

Frank Shorter at 5'10", 134 was "thin." Harald Norpoth at 6'0" 137 was "skinny." Seb Coe at 5'9", 119 was "gaunt."

OK, those are my wife's terms, ha! She didn't care much for the gaunt "look" even if it wasn't "Seb Coe gaunt". Of course now when I'm 180+ she uses the words "fat" and "grotesque." Mind you, at 5'9", she raced at 114 pounds in her 30s -- before I knew her, but I've seen photos and would definitely use the term "deathly thin."

I'll also admit that after looking through photos of myself, even at my thinnest, I could have lost a few more pounds. And through my mid-20s and 30s I was certainly overweight much of the time.

Man am I glad I found this thread!

I turned 50 in May and am on a 9 day schedule aimed at running a fast mile. I'm on a "less is more" kick due to too many injuries as I've aged. The plan is to run under 5:20 by the end of summer.

Here are my last 9 days of training:

day 1 2x8x100m (18-19sec) 25 sec rep rest, 3 minutes set rest

day 2 3 miles in 21-22 minutes

day 3 Day off running

day 4 4x100m (19 sec ), 2x400m (74 sec each), 4x100m (18 sec) 25 sec rep rest, 2 minutes set rest

day 5 3 miles in 21-22 minutes

day 6 Day off running

day 7 mile time trial in 5:28

day 8 3 miles in 21-22 minutes

day 9 Day off running

total mileage: 21 miles for 9 days

Work out day includes a one mile warm up, light running drills and 6 x strides, 2 mile cool down

Mile time trial progression this summer: 6:11, 6:07,5:52, 5:42, 5:35, 5:28

** I try to do a minimum of 45 minutes of easy/moderate cycling each day.

In my prime I ran a 2:37 marathon, 32:20 10km, 8:52 3000m

BMI talk.

I'm 6' 5/8" and I weigh 149 at present. Pretty skinny.

College, I was 6' - one and 5/8" (I've shrunk an inch) and 154, I had a bit of beer weight, plus half-miler intervals added a few pounds.

I was shopping for wine in Trader Joe's a couple days ago, a woman eyes me from the requisite six foot distance and quips "Do you eat?"

Yes, I eat. And, I run!

Allen1959 wrote:

M61 5'11" 183 lbs

Goals: Regain, maintain basic fitness; reduce weight; maybe get back to road-race participation.

AUG 2-8, 2020

Sun: Off

Mon: 6.0 miles(splits 9:04, 8:29, 8:34, 8:36, 8:29, 7:43)

Tues: Off

Wed: 4.0 miles (splits 8:57, 8:14, 8:38, 7:55)

Thur: Off

Fri: 4.5 miles (1.5-mi jog, 880y TT @ 3:23, 1.5-mi jog)

Sat: Off

TOTAL: 14.5 MILES

Had my weight consistently down to 180 until yesterday's birthday party (burgers, beers, dessert) -- 182.8 this morning, ugh. Friday's time trial was supposed to be a full mile. I'm usually very skilled at intuitively knowing current "race pace," but went out WAY too fast, and called it quits at a half mile. I might give it another try this week. Last one was 7:30 in early July.

That looks just like my usual weeks except I stay at ~ 9:00 pace with some 100m uphill sprints at the end of the workout (well...maybe not exactly sprinting but I'm moving my legs a little faster. Lol). My four off days are at the gym spin biking and lifting. If I don't work out everyday I don't feel very good.

I'm also catching you in weight where I weighed in at 175 today (5-7). During the lockdown and not having access to the gym my weight creeped up to 180 only 15 or so lbs from my college football days. ? But this excess weight is fat compared to the good old days where I was muscular with a low body fat % (those were the days where I had muscles, hair, good looks, etc. Lol). I want to get down to 165 reducing the body fat while trying to maintain some muscle mass. I eat very healthy but I need to reduce the quantity of my food. Pounding down large amounts of organic ice cream everyday isn't going to cut it. Lol.

That's an impressive 880 TT given your size and age. One of the few pleasures I try to have is a weekly mile TT usually on the weekend run after a few miles of easy jogging. Since I don't compete anymore (OA & chronic injuries) this is something to do for plain endorphin fun plus it's a great maxVO2 workout. Today, though, not so fun - 94 degrees at 7:00 pm and barely 7:55. Excessive heat and heavier runners is a bad combination. ?

61.5 yo male 150lb 6ft.

5 miles at 640am 76deg. Ran 1st 4k at easy pace and 2nd 4k at moderate pace with about 4-5 pickups for 40- 45 seconds. Legs heavy & tired buta a good fatigue.

Cheers to yall.

You guys who critique me for the limitations of BMI aren't telling me things I don't already know.

It's no mystery why I focus on body weight and BMI. I have physical limitations that prevent me from training hard. Weight is just about the only variable I can control. So I think about it a lot. Since January 1, I have dropped my body weight from 184 to 157. Now my BMI is 18.6, so I can't lose much more--or maybe any more--without overdoing it.

So I have that one key variable, body weight, under control for now, although it wasn't easy for me to do that--not at all. (The people who say to me at parties, when people are talking about weight, "It's easy for you," have no idea. They just aren't willing to work out every day like I am, and lie in bed at night with their stomach growling, like I am.)

Also I spend a ton of time stretching and strengthening, in a vain attempt to "injury-proof" my body. I still have aches and pains everywhere, but I like to think my efforts help a little.

What's next? Running seems to be the one part of my training that I have least control over. Right now, I can't do any fast running. So I am focusing on trying to do some running every other day, just to stay in the game, so to speak. If this works, I plan to slowly increase my mileage, without doing anything fast.

Maybe someday I can try to run a race again. Right now I'm shooting for a 5K on Jan. 1. We'll see.

I like to read stories like KCgeezer's. I really do. But when you think about it, it's very different for someone like him than for someone like me. He starts up running again, has early success, and his efforts are validated. He gets faster and actually wins races. As he keeps getting validated, he is motivated to keep doing the hard work to continue getting better. It's not easy for him, and the improvement probably isn't a straight line, so I give him all the credit in the world. He's doing the work and getting the results.

Then there are people like me, who are perfectly willing to do the work, but they can't do the work. So they don't get the results, and no one validates their efforts. They focus on tangential stuff like body weight and BMI because that's all they seem to be able to control.

This isn't a "poor me" post, it really isn't. Because I am actually VERY HAPPY that I am still able to run at all. If I could run more, and run faster, that would be very nice. But I honestly enjoy trying to do the best I can with my very limited means. Because you know what? It's much more of a challenge. It's a physical challenge, because I have to listen to my body constantly and think about my stride, footfall, etc., to avoid getting (more) injured. It's an intellectual challenge to devise training routines that are hard enough to produce a training effect without injuring me. It's psychologically challenging, because in the external world, I'm not going to get validated like KCgeezer or Coyote Montane or Coureur des bois or any of the fast guys and gals here. I'm not going to win races or impress people with my workouts. I have to generate my own enthusiasm in order to continue doing the work. I do that by reading a lot of running books and articles, watching a lot of Youtube videos, and trying to educate myself about training methods.

Frankly, as older people who like to run, we are all in the same boat. My boat may just be a little leakier than most. I am sure the fast guys and gals have their own frustrations because they can't do things they used to do, or because they don't get the same results from doing things they used to do.

Anyway, as Forrest Gump said, that's all I have to say about that.

happy 50's and congrats on the time trial! that's an impressive progression of times over a short period.

--Dave

M. 1 hour kayak.

T. 1 h 44 m mtn bike.

W. 1 h 27 m run in the forest 15.5 km.

T. 1 h 57 m mtn bike.

F. 1 hour kayak.

S. 1 h 38 m mtn bike.

S. 1 h 51 m run 18 km 225 m elev. gain. Calf grabbed right on18 of planned 19 km runso walked in.

A bit sore today but it was kayak day and will be bike day tomorrow.

KCgeezer wrote:

amkelley wrote:

Unfortunately I wear a pretty popular size (men's 7.5-8.0, women's 9.0-9.5) and there don't seem to be any available.

AMK, did I read right that you actually prefer the onesies to the LT2? If so...

Thanks for the tip! I never tried the original LT, having never in the previous 20 years found a Nike shoe that I could wear until I tried the LT2 in a brick-and-mortar shoe store while at a scientific conference in Washington DC. It isn't clear that my second pair of LT2's will work for me, so I'm really hesitant to try the LT1; possibly that one pair I bought in DC is the only pair of Nike shoes anywhere in the world that work for me...

Allen, you look good in all those photos.

IMO, the cardiovascular engine is the most important piece of the running machine. I've been passed by many a "chunky" guy in local 5K's. To a certain extent, the quality of your engine is inborn.

You can improve your engine by hard work, but here's the Catch-22--the amount of work you can perform is constrained by other inborn limits. You rarely hear that, in the running books and articles. The authors are usually top runners themselves, so they have little personal experience of these limits. The common theme I've seen is something like, "Running is one sport where you can get back whatever you put in." Most authors do caution beginning runners to increase mileage slowly, but no one seems to have any doubt that the mileage can eventually be increased.

A recent top-10 thread here on LRC was titled "It's much easier than you think to run high mileage" or something like that. Almost everyone posting to that thread talked about schedule limitations--how many hours were available to run. People broke down their weeks by hours, and argued about how long it really took to make meals, etc. Almost no one talked about physical limitations. A few people did, and I was one of them. I don't believe one person in a hundred is physically capable of running high mileage (say, 100+ mpw) without getting injured, but it's possible my own experience has made me too skeptical.

I'll weigh in (get it?) as I've pursued several sports where lowering bodyweight can make a big difference: rowing in the lightweight class (160 max, 154 boat average), rock climbing, cycling and running. In all of these sports manipulating your weight can bring some advantages ... but only to a point. I've been pretty light for my frame at times (as low as 6' and 145) and my best performances across the board where when I was heavier. Not a lot heavier, but around 155-160 seemed to be my sweet spot in my 20s, 30s and early 40s. Nowadays (53) if I can stay in the mid 160s where I'm currently sitting I feel like I can do the things I like to do without draining all the enjoyment from them by constantly freaking out about my weight. Nobody but me cares what my times are anymore -- and they never did before either.