First transgender athlete June Eastwood to compete in women’s DI XC this fall, has pbs of 1:55/3:50/14:38

RossiCheated wrote:

A study that concludes that there aren’t permanent advantages can essentially be debunked with a few questions.

Does being 6’8” go away?

Do hands shrink?

Does Q-angle change?

Do shoulders narrow?

Look, I’m all for a thoughtful, science-based argument/discussion. But the position that there aren’t permanent advantages of being born male, benefiting from testosterone through adolescence and transitioning later in life (say in one’s 20s) is just untenable.

I was staying on the topic of this thread, which is dealing with what we believe to be the first transgender athlete competing in women's D1 XC this fall.

I could see how sports like basketball where height is a great advantage would have a much more difficult time figuring this out.

I suspect q-angle does not change substantially, but the limited data I've seen so far for MTF transgender runners indicates their age-graded times are virtually identical unless their training/motivation changes significantly.

It will be very interesting to see how June performs. If her times end up being the same from an age-graded perspective I could see coaches and athletes taking their testosterone levels much more seriously in terms of trying to keep them elevated naturally.

I haven't seen the movie either, but the "Germans bombed Pearl Harbor" part was a clue this person ain't serious.

Let's show our support to this organisation folks, they are taking donations:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/donate/

They aren't only saving women's sports, but also protecting women in for example prisons:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/karen2-hero-1024x859.jpg

bartholomew_maxwell wrote:

Some guys truly were meant to be girls. Shee looks very, in transgender community terms, "passable". Barely distinguishable from a cisgender girl.

No, they aren’t. If they believe they should be a woman then what they truly need is therapy. He will never truly be a woman. This choosing your gender and being “assigned a gender at birth” is ridiculous. Anyone how believes this is choosing to completely ignore science .

Ultra Runner Chick wrote:

bartholomew_maxwell wrote:

Some guys truly were meant to be girls. Shee looks very, in transgender community terms, "passable". Barely distinguishable from a cisgender girl.

No, they aren’t. If they believe they should be a woman then what they truly need is therapy. He will never truly be a woman. This choosing your gender and being “assigned a gender at birth” is ridiculous. Anyone how believes this is choosing to completely ignore science .

Maybe you’re right, but people have historically said the same thing about being gay too and realistically which of us couldn’t benefit from therapy?

Concentric Hero - Eccentric Zero wrote:

Maybe you’re right, but people have historically said the same thing about being gay too and realistically which of us couldn’t benefit from therapy?

Being gay is about being attracted to something.

Being trans is about what you are.

You can be attracted to men, women, objects, animals, whatever. That's subjective.

But you are who you are. Jonathan is a man. That's objective.

Your sex, your race, your age... are facts. Can't change it. Rachel Dolezal will never be black. I will never be an elephant. I will never be 9 years old again.

We should help them, instead of suggesting them to take hormones or undergo irreversible surgeries.

They are giving puberty blockers to toddlers these days, insane.

TrackGirl wrote:

Let's show our support to this organisation folks, they are taking donations:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/donate/

They aren't only saving women's sports, but also protecting women in for example prisons:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/karen2-hero-1024x859.jpg

That site appears to be British and staunchly conservative, so your donations, while well-intentioned, probably would have less of an impact on the US NCAA than a similar organization in America.

Also, they have a meme on the “meme section” of their website that shows Michelle Jenneke. Not to get off topic, but it is news to me if she is transgender.

Why do you care what other people chose to identify as? How does it impact your personal life in the slightest?

Ultra Runner Chick wrote:

bartholomew_maxwell wrote:

Some guys truly were meant to be girls. Shee looks very, in transgender community terms, "passable". Barely distinguishable from a cisgender girl.

No, they aren’t. If they believe they should be a woman then what they truly need is therapy. He will never truly be a woman. This choosing your gender and being “assigned a gender at birth” is ridiculous. Anyone how believes this is choosing to completely ignore science .

Please use proper pronouns:

She/her will never truly be a woman.

Parents who allow a 4 year old to transition should be charged with child abuse. There is no way a 4 year old has any understanding of what they are doing.

I’m a women. I have an older brother. I wanted to do everything he did, played with boys toys - never owned any dolls, played whatever sport he did, it was a fight every Sunday when my parents made me wear a dress or skirt to church. Today people would claim I wanted to be a boy. However, once I got in junior high, and high school especially, and started to be interested in boys other than just to play sports with, I wanted to wear makeup, dress girly, etc even though I was still a “tomboy”. Today my favorite color is pink and while my favorite place is to be outdoor and on the trails I always dress feminine and have my nails done. If I was a kid today people would probably tell my parents that I want to be a boy. I can’t even imagine how totally messed up I would be if they would have told me I wanted to be a boy and encouraged me to transition as a child. Allowing children to transition is absolutely child abuse.

Kevin Hadsell wrote:

Why do you care what other people chose to identify as? How does it impact your personal life in the slightest?

For those of us female athletes here, it certainly does impact our personal lives to allow men to identify and compete as a woman.

bartholomew_maxwell wrote:

Ultra Runner Chick wrote:

No, they aren’t. If they believe they should be a woman then what they truly need is therapy. He will never truly be a woman. This choosing your gender and being “assigned a gender at birth” is ridiculous. Anyone how believes this is choosing to completely ignore science .

Please use proper pronouns:

She/her will never truly be a woman.

I am using proper pronouns. He is biologically a man and nothing can change that. Not hormones, not surgeries. He will always be a man.

TrackGirl wrote:

Concentric Hero - Eccentric Zero wrote:

Maybe you’re right, but people have historically said the same thing about being gay too and realistically which of us couldn’t benefit from therapy?

Being gay is about being attracted to something.

Being trans is about what you are.

You can be attracted to men, women, objects, animals, whatever. That's subjective.

But you are who you are. Jonathan is a man. That's objective.

Your sex, your race, your age... are facts. Can't change it. Rachel Dolezal will never be black. I will never be an elephant. I will never be 9 years old again.

We should help them, instead of suggesting them to take hormones or undergo irreversible surgeries.

They are giving puberty blockers to toddlers these days, insane.

It’s not unprecedented in nature for sex to change.

Giving puberty blockers to a toddler sounds medically unethical in terms of this conversation and it’s hard to believe a doctor would keep their license if they did that.

Uh huh. Well I would bet my life that this particular situation doesn’t personally effect you one bit. I’d also side wager you’re not female.

TrackGirl wrote:

Let's show our support to this organisation folks, they are taking donations:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/donate/

They aren't only saving women's sports, but also protecting women in for example prisons:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/karen2-hero-1024x859.jpg

June looks a lot like that dude.

Sometimes, change is for the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbnV1x7cHjs

Concentric Hero - Eccentric Zero wrote:

It’s not unprecedented in nature for sex to change.

https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/photos/animals-can-change-their-gender/frogs

But it is totally unprecedented - and impossible - for mammals to change sex.

And no matter what might be true for the fish, eels, slugs, lizards, frogs, turtles, birds, butterflies and the other non-mammals discussed in that totally irrelevant article, it doesn't apply to humans.

Amongst humans, males start developing huge advantages over females that matter athletically even before birth - and those advantages are not undone when a guy takes cross-sex hormones, grows his hair, changes his name, paints his nails or declares himself female:

Kevin Hadsell wrote:

Uh huh. Well I would bet my life that this particular situation doesn’t personally effect you one bit. I’d also side wager you’re not female.

I'd bet my life this particular situation doesn't personally AFFECT you. If that's the standard, then you probably don't belong in this conversation either. I offer no wager on your sex or gender.

There wasn't a women's marathon until 1984, and I was never going to be remotely good enough to ever run it. Gee, why did I ever give a damn whether the IOC offered the event or not.