1500m WR is now 20 years old!

It's funny because outside of this tiny fringe situation, men's middle distance and distance running, there is no argument that cheating occurs by all people in all walks of life all over the world. If you had this discussion on a non-running forum you'd be laughed away.

Even just another sport, cycling, is entirely white European and American dopers. Where is their cultural integrity there? The only African doper in cycling is Chris Froome.

I don't see how you think city bankers pushing way past the envelope of moral behaviour and committing straight up crimes that impact the entire world is less corrupt that a Kenyan having to pay petty bribes to the local police. They are at least the same or the banker is worse in my opinion.

My point is that opportunity and reward drives corruption.

City bankers know they can do what they like. Even after the 2008 housing crash they knew there would be a bailout and basically nobody would face real punishment or go to prison.

Kenyans know they can take EPO with little chance of being caught in the off-season.

US sprinters, Russians, Eastern Europeans etc all knew they could take steroids and get away with it for the power and speed events. The US still probably has the most caught dopers out of any country, despite Kenyas recent involvement. Cross-country skiing is another sport clouded with dopers, and lots of 'asthmatics'.

Every US sprinter should be viewed with suspicion if we use your model.

You act like nobody British has ever been done for drugs. I can think of a few. And outside of athletics there are literally hundreds. Rugby is perhaps the filthiest sport right now, especially in the UK. Our cyclists aren't looking too squeaky. I know a British swimmer who claims that everyone on the team has been prescribed asthma medicine.

It's just foolish to believe that Coe and Cram didn't dope because they were white Brits. I use white there because everyone seems to think Farah is dirty.

Coe and Ovett are immune to the normal finger pointing that goes on for absolutely no reason, despite the fact that blood transfusions were legal and have similar effects to EPO, and steroids were difficult to detect, and everyone in power events was using steroids and all the cyclists at the time were using blood transfusions.

But we apparently have four shining beacons of clean athletics, competing at a time when sports in general was amongst the dirtiest it has ever been, and no Brit has ever approached that level of ability since, and the only people who have are the Africans whom are definitely doping.

I think you doped, none of what you write makes sense otherwise. Everybody cheats in walks of life, and we're stupid not to be able to see this, but at the same time you had the opportunity to dope and you didn't take it, and I'm an idiot for thinking that you did?

Sorry, but I honestly think you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to city bankers, corruption, and the 2008 crash. It has little or no bearing on either on whether Kenyans today are more likely to cheat than three British guys in the 1980s.

Before they became free, commuter papers like the Metro were often 'sold' with no seller but just a cash tray for people to put their coins in before taking the paper. Mostly, it seems there were very few thefts or people just grabbing the papers without paying. This would be impossible in Kenya, or most or all African and Third World countries.

Compare what happened to the aftermath of disasters in Haiti, or even New Orleans, with how the Japanese behaved after their earthquake and nuclear power plant disaster. These are just different cultures.

I have some knowledge of the MMA world, and recently they finally introduced proper testing and it was clear that although many had been cheating, many hadn't. This in the brutal sport of MMA where steroid taking wasn't even really seen at the time as cheating by spectators or most participants, even if officially forbidden (in the USA).

Cycling is a different kettle of fish entirely to middle-distance running in the 80s. Until the Armstrong bust, it wasn't considered cheating in that sporting community because literally everybody was doing it. Chris Froome failed a test for an athsma drug. Not saying he shouldn't banned but it's not exactly doping yourself silly with EPO. Cycling will have a doping culture for years to come. You can't project that sport onto the whole history of track and field.

Sorry, I mean to keep things civil, but just as you see me as a 'racist', it's clear as day to me that you're a doping apologist. When you're defending El G as you are, you have to look in the mirror and accept that.

I think you are the doping apologist. You now find yourself defending cyclists of all people! The dirtiest of them all! I've never defended an actual caught cheat.

Cheating is cheating is cheating. Doesn't matter if it's taking asthma medication like Froome, injections of corticosteroids like Wiggins or EPO like Kiprop. Or steroids like the Americans and all the current banned rugby players in the UK (something like 80 currently banned)

We will leave city bankers because that seems to have hit a nerve with you. I remember pointing out corruption amongst MPs and bankers before and I forgot you are the only man outside of Canary Wharf or Westminster that thinks those guys aren't corrupt (or maybe inside?).

Your point about newspapers only reflects your own prejudice. Unless you have an example of all the Africans stealing from the newspaper pot then it's just your projections as usual.

I also don't care if you think I doped.

Anyone with a brain knows that athletes all over the world dope. Only you think that it's only the black guys and I think it's everyone. I also give equal credit to those I don't think doped. Some Africans dope, some don't. Some Brits dope, some don't. Some Russians were doping in their state sponsored programme, others like Shubenkov probably weren't (hence unbanned).

Essentially I think we should look at athletes on a case by case basis rather than taint large groups based on a more generic stereotypical prejudiced discrimination.

You might want to Google the definition of racism.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

3:26 has never been run clean

El G, B test Lagat & Kiprop

What a joke

I'm not sure if 3:30 has ever been run clean.

You accuse me of lying and putting words into your mouth that you never spoke, and you do it to me x 10.

I never defended cyclists, I just said clearly it's a different culture where everybody did know everybody else was doping. For a start, it's team based and always been fully professional, quite different to middle-distance running.

I never said all blacks dope and all whites are clean.

Can you answer this question? Do you think the decision to suspend Russia was 'racist'?

If you really think you could leave a tray out with a pile of newspapers in a typical Nairobi street and not having all the cash and papers stolen within seconds, you're crazy and probably never travelled outside of Lewisham or wherever in London you're from.

Coevett wrote:

I never defended cyclists, I just said clearly it's a different culture where everybody did know everybody else was doping.

But how could the culture get that way with no African participation in its infancy?

Coevett wrote:

You accuse me of lying and putting words into your mouth that you never spoke, and you do it to me x 10.

I never defended cyclists, I just said clearly it's a different culture where everybody did know everybody else was doping. For a start, it's team based and always been fully professional, quite different to middle-distance running.

I never said all blacks dope and all whites are clean.

Can you answer this question? Do you think the decision to suspend Russia was 'racist'?

If you really think you could leave a tray out with a pile of newspapers in a typical Nairobi street and not having all the cash and papers stolen within seconds, you're crazy and probably never travelled outside of Lewisham or wherever in London you're from.

'Cycling is a different kettle of fish entirely to middle-distance running in the 80s. Until the Armstrong bust, it wasn't considered cheating in that sporting community because literally everybody was doing it. Chris Froome failed a test for an athsma drug. Not saying he shouldn't banned but it's not exactly doping yourself silly with EPO'

Sounds like defence to me. It wasn't cheating because everyone did it? Asthma drugs aren't that bad? I think you'll find that cyclists knew that doping was wrong hence it was such a secret and Wiggins/Froome both using PEDs now have had a terrible reception. Have you watched any of the tour? People are spitting at Froome.

So it seems just like El K defending black convicted dopers, you defend white convicted dopers. I said you two are alike. I wouldn't dream of defending any doper for a moment, Shawn Barber is as guilty as Kiprop in my eyes.

I think the decision to suspend Russia was political. This should be obvious. There are no numbers saying how many Russians were involved in the doping rings but they banned everyone including those living outside of Russia. They haven't been banned any other nation in totality, despite many positive tests from Kenya or the USA because it's damaging to the sport and they aren't run by Putin.

Now you are trying to guess where I live and use that to put me down. Interesting. So you think in Lewisham the people would steal from the newspaper pot, but not in other boroughs. I wonder why you choose Lewisham out of the 32 or so London boroughs...? You are so predictable it's hilarious.

You have just previously stated in your prior post on this thread, "I don't think 3:26 times are possible clean"

In your very next post (see above) you state, "Ngeny, a man clearly capable of 3:26."

So, by your own admission, you believe that Ngeny must have doped! Which makes the rest of your 'argument' entirely redundant.

In addition, 3:30 and 3:31 races are still, 20 years later, world leading times in most seasons. You are critical of Coe running so fast with 3:31.9 in 81, offering it as evidence of doping, but 18 years later such a time represents 'tactical, less than maximum effort performances', and talk about the 2nd best athlete at the distance being capable of 3:26, almost 6 secs faster than Coe's pb in 81. Do you consider a 6 secs improvement in 1500m in 18 years to be a natural progression?

Well, perhaps you should also ask yourself why Coe running 3:31 is so suspicious, but that Ngeny running 3:30 is merely a tactical, sub maximum effort?

And what is with this ridiculous, "Anyway in that list I'm counting only 7 races at or near World record pace. 3:30/3:31 was not near world record pace." ?

If you remove the 3:30/3:31 times, which were all faster than what Coe was running 18 years earlier, then that still leaves 9 races that were at or approaching WR pace. N.B 3:29 would have been the 1500m WR 7 years earlier; take those other 2 3:26 runners, who couldn't have been clean according to you, out of the equation, and 3:29 runs are just 2 secs off the 'clean' WR at the time.

Or does your 7 not count his 1000m WR, the 3rd fastest ever 1000m ever run, the 2nd fastest mile ever and one of the fastest ever over 2000m?

You are clutching at straws if you're trying to justify the two seasons are comparable.

Ngeny ran 13 races (over 4 distances ) out of 18 in 1999, that were faster than Coe's pb in 81 (with one exception). This was also a Championship season.

Coe ran 5 fast races out of 14 in his best season of 81, a season with no major championships, and thus geared towards fast times.

ex-runner wrote:

Coe ran a 1500m in 3:31.9 just outside the existing world record with what I think was a 1:46 opening 800m, the likes of which have never been seen since, ever. Most would keel over and die going through 800m that fast, not run 3:31.

No, he went through 800m in 1:49.1, not 1:46. So again, the rest of your point doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

BTW, Ramzi (52.3, 1:49.2) went through 400 and 800 in similar splits to Coe (52.4, 1:49.1) in Rome in 2006, and finished in 3:29.14, which is 2.8 secs faster than Coe. Komen too, went through in 52.5 and 1:49.6, and finished in 3:29.02.

So if Coe's run indicates doping, what does it tell us about Ramzi and Komen, who managed to hang on to a suicidal pace more successfully?

I do think Ngeny doped. Yes!

I just think your analysis stating that running lots of fast times close together are evidence of doping. It's not. People at the top of their game can run close to their PB every time if necessary. I certainly was able to. Running close to my PB in the semis and then in the finals the next day.

Coe did it, 3:31.9 with a 1:46 first 800m (clearly worth 3:28 in my opinion and probably yours) and then a 2:12.1 1000m 4 days later, and you think he's clean. There aren't many men who have run under 3:49 twice in one season. I'm sure you would point them all out to be dopers, except Coe.

The logic just isn't there. Kiprop didn't run crazy times, Lagat didn't, El G did. The former two actually tested positive for EPO the latter did not. Objectively. El G probably doped also but his pattern is not the same as the confirmed dopers.

Basically there just isn't a pattern that points out doping. Sprinters run to their maximum every race, that's the nature of the game. The 400m is a destructive distance and they run to their maximum every time. The 800 is often run all out also. Rudisha likes it that way.

If someone decides to run the 1500 all out like El G then they would produce fast times every time also. Doping or not doping. What makes El G a doper is 3:26, 4:43(!) and 7:23.

Coe claims it was something like 1:46/1:47 and in the video on YouTube which I assume you posted it certainly looks that way.

One aspect of this all that you are not discussing is improvement in training, which is how Komen, etc., could hang onto a similar pace that Coe ran 18 years earlier.

Obviously, Coe's training program was not the best, which is why no one implements his pace tier approach anymore. His training was flawed, which led to his static times over 1500m and why he was unable to win 800m Olympic titles while being the WR holder. Remember, Coe avoided racing the best week after week and racing fast is a skill.

As Peter used to state in our BMC Newsletters, "everyone thinks we're doing 100 miles per week when in reality we're doing 50." Even Lydiard has been exposed to be out-dated and ineffective in today's world.

ex-runner wrote:

It's just foolish to believe that Coe and Cram didn't dope because they were white Brits. I use white there because everyone seems to think Farah is dirty.

Coe and Ovett are immune to the normal finger pointing that goes on for absolutely no reason, despite the fact that blood transfusions were legal and have similar effects to EPO, and steroids were difficult to detect, and everyone in power events was using steroids and all the cyclists at the time were using blood transfusions.

So your justification for accusing Coe, Ovett & Cram of doping is because they shouldn't be "immune to the normal finger pointing that goes on for absolutely no reason" of other athletes? Can you take a step back from that statement and analyse it from a detached pov?

There were no positive drug tests and no evidence whatsoever that any UK male middle distance runner in the late 70's and 80's doped, despite their being dozens of busts in other events and many female middle distance runners from Eastern Europe. There was testing of steroids, there were people caught during this era, so stop trying to claim that everyone doped and everyone got away with it. Of course some could have doped, but rumours and posts from anonymous figures on message boards don't cut the mustard. No one is saying that the likes of Boit, Khalifa, Koskei, Chesire, etc were doping in this period either.

You have claimed yourself that you were a national standard athlete and never doped, despite the 'apparent' lax testing and high likelihood you could have got away with it. So what makes you so special that you can claim you didn't dope (and I have no reason not to believe you), but that those more talented than yourself would have doped?

On the other hand, I do not think that all Kenyans dope today. However, there is a clear and stark difference which people seem reluctant to accept. We had decades where Kenyan (and no doubt other poorer nations) athletes were not subject to the level of testing that European were. FACT. Since they have been forced to undergo testing, there have been many elite athletes turning up positive drug results. We have various corrupt court cases, urine samples being given in place of the intended athlete, convoluted excuses for how EPO manged to get into Kiprop's sample, etc. These too are FACTS. There were no stories like this from UK athletes in the 80's, no anecdotal evidence or retrospective accusations.

It might not read well, and it may be used by some for political points, but in purely athletic terms, disregarding colour, nationality, creed, etc, it can not come as a surprise to any reasonable individual, that there is a lot more evidence to claim that current (last 20 years) Kenyan (and those from other nations with inferior testing) middle distance runners are more likely to have doped than those running the same events in the 1980's. It doesn't make it true, but unfortunately, there is such thing as guilt by association, and until the time that any evidence should emerge casting a shadow on the exploits of milers from the early 80's, there is no such guilt by association for that group.

ex-runner wrote:

Coe claims it was something like 1:46/1:47 and in the video on YouTube which I assume you posted it certainly looks that way.

No he doesn't. He states in his book (which I presume is where you're getting your information from!?) that the pacer, Robinson, "...ran me through the first 800m in 1m 47,.." (P.152)

He is either referring to Robinson's split, given as 1:47.5 at the time (which I question as accurate), or he has forgotten after 30 + years what his actual split was. I can assure you categorically, and it was printed in T&FN at the time (a copy of which I have), that Coe's split was 1:49.1, not 1:46 or 1:47.

Yes I did post that video clip and I have timed it from the starting position many times. It was 1:49.1.

lkjk wrote:

Obviously, Coe's training program was not the best, which is why no one implements his pace tier approach anymore. His training was flawed, which led to his static times over 1500m and why he was unable to win 800m Olympic titles while being the WR holder. Remember, Coe avoided racing the best week after week and racing fast is a skill.

It couldn't have been too flawed to have won 2 Olympic golds and 2 silvers in 2 campaigns. He lost the 800m in Moscow mainly due to his own tactical ineptitude, not because his training was flawed. He certainly din't avoid the world's best when he ran 7 races in 9 days to win another gold in 84.

So nobody tested positive because drug testing was poor. It's quite simple. It also was not illegal to use blood transfusions at the time when Coe set all his world records. So what would they test for?

I'm sure some people did get caught but many didn't, just like today. There definitely was not much in the way of out of season testing.

I never said it was easy to dope when I was running and I never said I doped. Don't listen to Coevetts 'paraphrasing' if you can call it that. I said there's no testing at BMC races specifically, never has been probably never will be. Never was when Coe ran never was when I ran. Are we both dopers? There was plenty of testing at other events I ran at and I'm sure there was testing at other events Coe ran at.

I completely agree that there will be a higher proportion of dopers from places with poor testing. I've said that. That was my entire point about people cheat when there is an opportunity/lack of real regulation (like bankers).

Coevett's point is of a higher order, stating that Africans are more like to cheat because they are African and Whites are less likely to cheat because they are white. Doping European cyclists aren't as bad as doping Africans because the cyclists "didn't think it was wrong" whilst the evil blacks in athletics are trying to steal from the richness of the sport.

Don't make the same mistakes as Coevett. Absence of testing leads to a higher number of athletes cheating but does not mean that all cheat.

In kenya today there will be some cheats and some that don't cheat. There will, if you believe Coe to have run 1:41 and 3:29 clean, some Kenyans that can and have also run those times clean. It's a numbers game.

There would be some who cheated and others who didn't.

Just like Coevetts his newspaper pot idea. I bet some took out of the pot. Even in his local white neighborhood.

If you don't like Coe's 1981 season, there are plenty of other historical examples of repeated races of high quality. As an example, look at Henry Rono's 1978 season.

At 5000, he ran 13:08 WR, 13:15, 13:16, 13:18, 13:20, 13:20, 13:21, 13:22 (in a snowstorm)

At the steeple, he ran 8:05 WR, 8:12, 8:14, 8:15, 8:16, 8:17, 8:18

At 10K, he ran 27:22 WR, 27:46, 27:48, 27:53

At 3000, he ran 7:32 WR, 7:41, 7:43, 7:43

At 2 miles, he ran 8:14, 8:18i, 8:20i

1/21 1 8:18.3 CR 2 mile Sunkist Invitational Los Angeles, CA

1/22 1 4:00.9 1 mile Vandal Invitatioanl Moscow, ID

1/28 1 27:48.6 10000 International Auckland, NZ

2/5 1 1:04:46 HM San Blas HM Coamo, PR

2/10 4 13:24.6 3 mile Maple Leaf Games Toronto, Canada

2/17 3 8:20.0 2 mile Jack-in-the-box San Diego, CA

2/18 3 4:01.6 1 mile Examiner Games Daly City, CA

3/10 1 4:12.2h 1 mile NCAA Detroit, MI

3/11 2 8:43.4 2 mile NCAA Detroit, MI

3/11 6 4:50.0 1 mile NCAA Detroit, MI

3/28 1 13:31.8 5000 San Jose Relays San Jose, CA

4/1 1 13:22.7 5000 WSU Invitational Pullman, WA snowstorm

4/8 1 13:08.4 WR 5000 Triangular Meet Berkeley, CA 70 degrees, sunny, light wind

4/15 1 8:14.8 CR 3000sc WSU vs UO Eugene, OR

4/22 1 4:00.9 1 mile Quadrangular Meet Pasco, WA

4/29 1 8:24.4 3000sc WSU vs UW Pullman, WA

5/7 1 7:43.0 3000 Pepsi Invitational Los Angeles, CA

5/13 1 8:05.4 WR 3000sc Northwest Relays Seattle, WA hail, rain. windy, 55 degrees, 200+ attendance

5/19 1 27:46.6 10000 Pac 8 Conference Corvallis, OR

5/19 dnf 3000sc Pac 8 Conference Corvallis, OR

5/20 1 13:20.2 5000 Pac 8 Conference Corvallis, OR

5/24 1 7:43.9 3000 Phillips Invitational London, GBR

6/1 1 8:18.6h 3000sc NCAA Eugene, OR

6/1 1 13:21.8h 5000 NCAA Eugene, OR

6/3 1 8:12.4 3000sc NCAA Eugene, OR

6/11 1 27:22.5 WR 10000 International Vienna, AUT after a soccer game, 500 attendance 72 degrees, no wind

6/18 1 13:32.0 5000 African Games Mombassa, KEN

6/22 1 7:41.5 3000 Sportfest Cologne, GER

6/24 1 13:20.8 5000 British AAA London, GBR

6/27 1 7:32.1 WR 3000 Bislett Games Oslo, NOR

6/28 1 8:16.8 3000sc World Games Helsinki, FIN

7/2 1 13:18.2 5000 International Milano, ITA

7/20 1 27:58.9 10000 African Games Algiers, ALG

7/25 1 8:15.8 3000sc African Games Algiers, ALG

8/2 5 5:17.0 2000 International Edmonton, CAN

8/6 1 8:26.3h 3000sc Commonwealth Games Edmonton, CAN

8/7 1 8:26.5 3000sc Commonwealth Games Edmonton, CAN

8/8 1 14:02.2h 5000 Commonwealth Games Edmonton, CAN

8/10 1 13:23.0 5000 Commonwealth Games Edmonton, CAN

8/16 1 13:16.1 5000 Weltklasse Zurich, SWI

9/5 3 7:45.3 3000 International Frankfurt, GER

9/7 2 8:17.5 3000sc International Kloblenz, GER

9/9 1 27:53.8 10000 GBR vs FIN (guest) London, GBR

9/10 1 13:15.5 5000 International Rieti, ITA

9/12 1 7:49.3 3000 International Ingleheim, GER

9/15 2 8:14.7 2 mile Coca Cola London, GBR

9/17 2 4:03.8 1 mile International Gateshead, GBR

9/20 1 8:32.7 2 mile International Oslo, NOR

9/25 dnf 1 mile International Tokyo, JPN

10/28 1 23:37.2 8000xc Pac 10 Divisional Pullman, WA

11/11 1 29:22.0 10000xc Pac-10 District Fresno, CA

11/20 237 34:10.7 10000xc NCAA Madison, WI

Deanouk wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

Coe claims it was something like 1:46/1:47 and in the video on YouTube which I assume you posted it certainly looks that way.

No he doesn't. He states in his book (which I presume is where you're getting your information from!?) that the pacer, Robinson, "...ran me through the first 800m in 1m 47,.." (P.152)

He is either referring to Robinson's split, given as 1:47.5 at the time (which I question as accurate), or he has forgotten after 30 + years what his actual split was. I can assure you categorically, and it was printed in T&FN at the time (a copy of which I have), that Coe's split was 1:49.1, not 1:46 or 1:47.

Yes I did post that video clip and I have timed it from the starting position many times. It was 1:49.1.

Yeah 1:47 that was it. Just like it says in his book.

Either way you'll agree that the performance was worth 3:28 if evened out. The sorts of times which Cheryuoit hopes to run.

Rono was the only man with EPO in 1978 of course, or he was using blood transfusions in rural Africa where there was an aids epidemic coming to the fore...