Rojo, your conclusions are based on flimsy evidence.
Here is Salazar's lengthy rebuttal
https://nikeoregonproject.com/blogs/news/35522561-alberto-open-letter-part-1
https://nikeoregonproject.com/blogs/news/35523713-alberto-open-letter-part-2
Rojo, your conclusions are based on flimsy evidence.
Here is Salazar's lengthy rebuttal
https://nikeoregonproject.com/blogs/news/35522561-alberto-open-letter-part-1
https://nikeoregonproject.com/blogs/news/35523713-alberto-open-letter-part-2
#cleansport wrote:
false equivalence wrote:
He did not fail a test, and you are showing your ignorance. The B sample was not "a technicality". Seriously, research it because you are embarrassing yourself. It's hard to take anything you say serious if you don't understand this very basic concept.
http://www.letsrun.com/2003/lagatfull.docPlease provide support for anything about him failing a test in 2008 before the OTs.
There are a lot more allegations directed at NOP than the ones you so crudely characterized. The cases against the two are drastically different, so it is logically fallacious to say that you can't blast one and support the other (which is why it seems you feel that you can support Rupp and not Lagat).
I can tell you a very close source to David Torrence knew first hand knowledge about Lagat and what happened in 2008 and other important info. No big secret here, it's a part of Track & Field . You have to say is "There are a lot more allegations directed at NOP". What is that, please enlighten me on your allegations that make you so sure ODP is cheating.
I love your passion, but it's pointed in the wrong direction. I have and will always be for CLEAN SPORT. What else can I say, but you're just picking sides with no real purpose. Go ahead and call ODP cheats, but you need to call Kara and Ritz a cheat also. You know they did everything Rupp or the others did. So are they cheats or are you just obsessed with hating Rupp and Al?
Lagat just did what all the other medalist did in the late 90's and early 2000's. However, B Lagat's greatest accomplishment was getting the B sample thrown out.
1) I'm aware of the rumors you are talking about before the 2008 trials, which is why I asked for support. And you weren't able to provide any. Just word of mouth. That never even became public. So no one felt strongly enough about it to ever say something? And Lagat is more of a sacred cow than Tyson Gay and others who were given doping suspensions?
2) I ABSOLUTELY am skeptical about performances from anyone associated with Salazar, including Ritz and Goucher when she was on the team. What allegations are around him? Well he tested testosterone cream to see how different quantities affect a test, coupled with Stiner finding needles and testosterone in Sal's possession, coupled with Rupp's apparent "need" for testosterone medication documented from an early age, plus Slaney's doping and association with Salazar, plus Armstrong being a good buddy, plus several former colleagues and athletes coming out with things they didn't feel was appropriate, plus pushing prescription meds on those who didn't have a prescription, plus exceeding the limits on IV dosing, etc. Do I think there are people out there doing a lot worse? For sure. But that doesn't mean that I think NOP is above board.
3) Lagat's double gold is his greatest accomplishment. You've shown intellectual laziness by repeating the lie that he failed a test. You clearly didn't read the report that I provided that cleared both samples of rhEPO.
And again, you've pointed out yourself why it is possible to support one and not the other - they are widely different cases with different circumstances. So you can't gripe about criticizing Rupp and not Lagat when you yourself believe them to be very different likelihoods of doping.
Garbage to use anonymous sources. Either have the guts to put your name by your words or say nothing. Equally weak for the media to rely n them. Childish.
Rojo - your countdown clock on the LRC front page is off by 8 hours BTW, unless the race is starting at 1:30am.
the more I think about this, the less upset I am with the coaches choosing to be quoted anonymously -- that's their prerogative and LRC was willing to offer them it. But it weakens the impact of the point of view because we readers can't assess what's behind it.
What bothers me is the splashy, privileged treatment the anonymous quote has been given at the top of the homepage. LRC didn't have the reporting goods (on the record quote) and yet went huge with it. Did LRC reach out to Rupp for comment? That's where I come off feeling like Rupp has been mistreated and why it perversely makes him more sympathetic in my eyes.
PERFORMANCE PLACE DATE
2013 13:09.53 Eugene (USA) 01 JUN 2013
2012 13:14.72 Los Angeles, CA (USA) 18 MAY 2012
2009 12:56.27 Zürich (SUI) 28 AUG 2009
2007 13:16.06 Brasschaat (BEL) 21 JUL 2007
2006 13:16.61 Indianapolis, IN (USA) 23 JUN 2006
2005 13:22.23 Eugene (USA) 07 MAY 2005
2004 13:52.13 Austin, TX (USA) 12 JUN 2004
2003 13:39.17 Walnut (USA) 17 APR 2003
2002 13:27.77 Palo Alto (USA) 03 MAY 2002
2001 13:44.70 Eugene (USA) 22 JUN 2001
Hmmm ? what is the odd one out?
He ran his PR when he was 26 years old - how is that odd. He showed gradual improvement for years prior, had 2 years off, then crushed a 5K in 2009.
Yes, in 2009 is when he began running under Salazar - but I don't think that you can just connect the change in coaching to immediate success.
you're silly you little goose wrote:
He ran his PR when he was 26 years old - how is that odd. He showed gradual improvement for years prior, had 2 years off, then crushed a 5K in 2009.
Yes, in 2009 is when he began running under Salazar - but I don't think that you can just connect the change in coaching to immediate success.
Hmmm, Nike employee?
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
PERFORMANCE PLACE DATE
2013 13:09.53 Eugene (USA) 01 JUN 2013
2012 13:14.72 Los Angeles, CA (USA) 18 MAY 2012
2009 12:56.27 Zürich (SUI) 28 AUG 2009
2007 13:16.06 Brasschaat (BEL) 21 JUL 2007
2006 13:16.61 Indianapolis, IN (USA) 23 JUN 2006
2005 13:22.23 Eugene (USA) 07 MAY 2005
2004 13:52.13 Austin, TX (USA) 12 JUN 2004
2003 13:39.17 Walnut (USA) 17 APR 2003
2002 13:27.77 Palo Alto (USA) 03 MAY 2002
2001 13:44.70 Eugene (USA) 22 JUN 2001
Hmmm ? what is the odd one out?
Lol. Did you watch any of those? I watch quite a few and you just can't compare. Much of his fastest times in the other years were run in more tactical 5ks in winds or hot temperatures. He never got in a fast 5000 in one of those fast DLs in Europe (besides the Zurich one which was only somewhat fast). Rieti or Monaco would have been nice. He would have smashed that 12:56 and most know that.
I just skimmed through 9 pages wondering why no LR sleuths have tried to figure out WHO this Coach B is. What coaches would Let's Run interview about this? I can't think of very many, but would these people say those words?
Keith/Kevin Hansons
Ray Treacy
Ben Rosario
???
false equivalence wrote:
#cleansport wrote:
I can tell you a very close source to David Torrence knew first hand knowledge about Lagat and what happened in 2008 and other important info. No big secret here, it's a part of Track & Field . You have to say is "There are a lot more allegations directed at NOP". What is that, please enlighten me on your allegations that make you so sure ODP is cheating.
I love your passion, but it's pointed in the wrong direction. I have and will always be for CLEAN SPORT. What else can I say, but you're just picking sides with no real purpose. Go ahead and call ODP cheats, but you need to call Kara and Ritz a cheat also. You know they did everything Rupp or the others did. So are they cheats or are you just obsessed with hating Rupp and Al?
Lagat just did what all the other medalist did in the late 90's and early 2000's. However, B Lagat's greatest accomplishment was getting the B sample thrown out.
1) I'm aware of the rumors you are talking about before the 2008 trials, which is why I asked for support. And you weren't able to provide any. Just word of mouth. That never even became public. So no one felt strongly enough about it to ever say something? And Lagat is more of a sacred cow than Tyson Gay and others who were given doping suspensions?
2) I ABSOLUTELY am skeptical about performances from anyone associated with Salazar, including Ritz and Goucher when she was on the team. What allegations are around him? Well he tested testosterone cream to see how different quantities affect a test, coupled with Stiner finding needles and testosterone in Sal's possession, coupled with Rupp's apparent "need" for testosterone medication documented from an early age, plus Slaney's doping and association with Salazar, plus Armstrong being a good buddy, plus several former colleagues and athletes coming out with things they didn't feel was appropriate, plus pushing prescription meds on those who didn't have a prescription, plus exceeding the limits on IV dosing, etc. Do I think there are people out there doing a lot worse? For sure. But that doesn't mean that I think NOP is above board.
3) Lagat's double gold is his greatest accomplishment. You've shown intellectual laziness by repeating the lie that he failed a test. You clearly didn't read the report that I provided that cleared both samples of rhEPO.
And again, you've pointed out yourself why it is possible to support one and not the other - they are widely different cases with different circumstances. So you can't gripe about criticizing Rupp and not Lagat when you yourself believe them to be very different likelihoods of doping.
Sorry but you know nothing about this except the stuff you read on letsrun.! I'm not going to start listing friends and sources on here. if Rojo wants to get ahold of me himself I have no problem telling what I know. Nothing to hide it what I was told. Your rhetoric is so screwed it's crazy. Al Sal is not colleagues with Armstrong. They met on the Nike campus when Armstrong with doing a PR thing during his Radio Shack days. They shared a few emails, but far from the way you make it seem.
I'm against any cheating, but you're just outright bias against ODP with no reasons but your BBC BS. Nothing proven in that at all. No positive evidence from all channels spoken about.
Yup, I think so too.
I also think that if you are going to be unkind, put your name on it.
Stand by what you say and believe.
butwhoiscoachb wrote:
I just skimmed through 9 pages wondering why no LR sleuths have tried to figure out WHO this Coach B is. What coaches would Let's Run interview about this? I can't think of very many, but would these people say those words?
Keith/Kevin Hansons
Ray Treacy
Ben Rosario
???
Best guess:
Guy that coached Leo, Dave, Shannon, and Bile. Former coach at George Mason.
My guess wrote:
butwhoiscoachb wrote:
I just skimmed through 9 pages wondering why no LR sleuths have tried to figure out WHO this Coach B is. What coaches would Let's Run interview about this? I can't think of very many, but would these people say those words?
Keith/Kevin Hansons
Ray Treacy
Ben Rosario
???
Best guess:
Guy that coached Leo, Dave, Shannon, and Bile. Former coach at George Mason.
Bingo!
who is most likely to be cheating now???? wrote:
We know that since the "investigation" started, every NOP athlete is being tested a lot. I read somewhere on LRC and elsewhere that Rupp was the most tested athlete in 2017. I'm guessing that Hasay is tested a lot as well. Meanwhile the Bowerman "babes" are being tested relatively lightly.
Um...no!
According to the USADA "Athlete Test History," in 2017, Flanagan was tested 12x, while Hasay was tested 11x, Huddle 9x, Cragg 7x and Linden 5x.
As for Rupp being the most tested, he was, but not by much: Rupp was tested 16x, Ritz 14x and Meb, 10x. Dropping down in distance, Lomong was tested 14x, Jaeger and Lagat, 12x and Centro 11x. (To give perspective, Gatlin and Gay were tested 13x and 12x. )
And, yes, these numbers don't just show how suspicious the USADA is -- since winners get tested, the more you win, the more you get tested.
https://www.usada.org/testing/results/athlete-test-history/You could look it up wrote:
who is most likely to be cheating now???? wrote:
We know that since the "investigation" started, every NOP athlete is being tested a lot. I read somewhere on LRC and elsewhere that Rupp was the most tested athlete in 2017. I'm guessing that Hasay is tested a lot as well. Meanwhile the Bowerman "babes" are being tested relatively lightly.
Um...no!
According to the USADA "Athlete Test History," in 2017, Flanagan was tested 12x, while Hasay was tested 11x, Huddle 9x, Cragg 7x and Linden 5x.
As for Rupp being the most tested, he was, but not by much: Rupp was tested 16x, Ritz 14x and Meb, 10x. Dropping down in distance, Lomong was tested 14x, Jaeger and Lagat, 12x and Centro 11x. (To give perspective, Gatlin and Gay were tested 13x and 12x. )
And, yes, these numbers don't just show how suspicious the USADA is -- since winners get tested, the more you win, the more you get tested.
https://www.usada.org/testing/results/athlete-test-history/
Thats not 100% true. Fernando Cabadawas one of the highest tested in 2015 and he was not winning at all. He was tested 11 times.
Sorry I meant Fernando Cabada was tested 11 times in 2015 and he was not winning anything.
#cleansport wrote:
Thats not 100% true. Fernando Cabadawas one of the highest tested in 2015 and he was not winning at all. He was tested 11 times.
I'm not sure I get your point. I was simply pointing out that because winners get tested, winning adds to the number of tests you take. I wasn't saying anything about how often non-winners get tested.
On a happier note, any idea why he was tested so often? I assume it was partly b/c he was running a lot of races.
It's too bad the USADA does not tell how often an athlete was tested in and out of competition. Getting tested a lot out-of-competition seems like a pretty good sign the USADA is suspicious.
You could look it up wrote:
#cleansport wrote:
Thats not 100% true. Fernando Cabadawas one of the highest tested in 2015 and he was not winning at all. He was tested 11 times.
I'm not sure I get your point. I was simply pointing out that because winners get tested, winning adds to the number of tests you take. I wasn't saying anything about how often non-winners get tested.
On a happier note, any idea why he was tested so often? I assume it was partly b/c he was running a lot of races.
It's too bad the USADA does not tell how often an athlete was tested in and out of competition. Getting tested a lot out-of-competition seems like a pretty good sign the USADA is suspicious.
I understand what you were saying. I'm just saying that athletes get tested when they are suspicious or USADA gets a number of tips.
That's what I have been told.
#cleansport wrote:
You could look it up wrote:
Um...no!
According to the USADA "Athlete Test History," in 2017, Flanagan was tested 12x, while Hasay was tested 11x, Huddle 9x, Cragg 7x and Linden 5x.
As for Rupp being the most tested, he was, but not by much: Rupp was tested 16x, Ritz 14x and Meb, 10x. Dropping down in distance, Lomong was tested 14x, Jaeger and Lagat, 12x and Centro 11x. (To give perspective, Gatlin and Gay were tested 13x and 12x. )
And, yes, these numbers don't just show how suspicious the USADA is -- since winners get tested, the more you win, the more you get tested.
https://www.usada.org/testing/results/athlete-test-history/Thats not 100% true. Fernando Cabadawas one of the highest tested in 2015 and he was not winning at all. He was tested 11 times.
Ritz was tested alot in 2017 and it wasn't a spectacular year. Centro was tested 17 times in 2016.