cbenson4 wrote:
I understand Semenya and Wambui, but why is Niyonsaba being labeled as a man? I'm having a hard time seeing the signs of extra testosterone around the body
Niyonsaba should be gold and Bishop silver.
cbenson4 wrote:
I understand Semenya and Wambui, but why is Niyonsaba being labeled as a man? I'm having a hard time seeing the signs of extra testosterone around the body
Niyonsaba should be gold and Bishop silver.
Justice4caster wrote:
TheRealDMC wrote:You all disgust me!! Are Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui human beings? I believe so, more human than the man running for President of The United States of America. I can't believe that in 2016 you ignorant people still think that because someone is different that they don't deserve what they have worked their whole life for. Yet you want to make excuses for Ryan Lochte because he was drunk, he's 31 years old and still a child. You racist, sexist and bigoted people blow my freaking mind.
Those three WOMAN have worked harder and endured more than you will in your entire life. I hope karma comes back to bite you in the ass for your hateful views and inability to see the world for what it is. A world of different but equally beautiful people no matter what their chromosomes say or how they look or who they love.
Finally! You have redeemed my hope in humanity, perfectly stated and true words.
You people need to read a little science and get down to the proper issues. Yes there are a lot of ignorant people on here who like to blame the intersex women, but don't ever say the gold medalist worked harder than the others. To become a world class female 800m runner, it takes years of hard training. Melissa Bishop was a decent high school runner. She then spent 5 years in university improving consistently. Then 5 more years of hard full time work running 1000s of miles and many hours in the weight room. After all that she has no ability to develop the muscles intersex women do with little effort. You see, testosterone helps build muscles and this is why we have a male and female division. Nobody is against the individuals themselves.
On the other hand, the gold medalist ran a couple of high school races, went straight to the World Champs and won a gold.
Their should be a duplicate of medals. So castor semenya should get her gold medal with an asteriks marked beside her name in the results.
The person who got second place should also get a gold medal. Since we have a bit of a transgender situation. Semenya should be recognized for her achievements and how she stacks up against your average female with normal testosterone levels. But she should be categorized differently against her normal femine born competitors
RIGHT HERE.. wrote:
Their should be a duplicate of medals. So castor semenya should get her gold medal with an asteriks marked beside her name in the results.
The person who got second place should also get a gold medal. Since we have a bit of a transgender situation. Semenya should be recognized for her achievements and how she stacks up against your average female with normal testosterone levels. But she should be categorized differently against her normal femine born competitors
That's where you are wrong. She should not be made to feel different or ostracized. She has every right to identify as a woman and run. CAS says so, and I'm sure they're more informed than anyone here.
9 pages on this thread, but nobody answered one question: If Caster is intersexed, why choose to run with women instead of men?
GD wrote:
Justice4caster wrote:She comes from a poor place lacking much. She runs to help them and you would deny her this right.
"But consider this: Until 1966, international competitions were still using physical examinations to determine which female athletes could and could not compete. No complicated science. No chromosome tests. No testing of hormones. No scans of internal organs. Just a simple glance at a naked body to ensure that no men were masquerading as women. So it's possible that hundreds of women (and some men, for that matter) have competed, unbeknownst to anyone, with myriad different internal makeups.
And have women's sports imploded?
No. So why would it now?"
http://www.espn.com/espnw/voices/article/17275159/katie-ledecky-crushing-records-why-worried-caster-semenya____________________
You seem to be going after low hanging fruit on this thread, so I'll ask you again. Do you think that gender identification should be the basis upon which we separate women and men into categories for the purpose of athletics? If not, what criteria do you propose?
Secondly, when you say that it's not a problem because Semenya is not breaking world records, you seem to not grasp the enormous doping problem that has existed in track and field over the last several decades. Semenya is running times that may well be unattainable for non-doped XX women. Nobody who has run comparable times is likely to be clean.
If you can solve the problem of gender categories without being exclusionary or discriminatory, I will tuck my copy of Gender Trouble into a memory box and personally drive to California to tell Judith Butler that feminism's big dilemma has been solved.
Two posts by justice4caster since being called out by GD, and still no response to the tough questions.
My response is simple. There is never reason to be hateful and intolerant. If people need to readjust their attitude on gender, then so be it.
Justice4caster wrote:
My response is simple. There is never reason to be hateful and intolerant. If people need to readjust their attitude on gender, then so be it.
It's a yes or no question. Quit avoiding it. I'll post it here again for you.
Do you think that gender identification should be the basis upon which we separate women and men into categories for the purpose of athletics? If not, what criteria do you propose?
Gender isn't necessarily binary or black and white. Obviously CAS felt Caster was in the female spectrum of gender. If someone is different, they shouldn't be excluded or made to feel like an outcast.
Justice4caster wrote:
Gender isn't necessarily binary or black and white. Obviously CAS felt Caster was in the female spectrum of gender. If someone is different, they shouldn't be excluded or made to feel like an outcast.
That doesn't answer the question. The question does not suppose that gender is binary or specifically reference Caster. It's a yes or no question. I'll post it again.
Do you think that gender identification should be the basis upon which we separate women and men into categories for the purpose of athletics? If not, what criteria do you propose?
Yes. That is how it is done. Caster was ruled to be eligible to compete in the female category. They know more about her situation than you or I. She broke no rules.
Finaly, we get an answer. You think that gender identification is the basis by which we should separate men and women into categories for the purpose of sports.
Next question. If Nick Symmonds were to decide he wants to identify as a woman, should he be allowed to compete in the women's 800m?
Justice4caster wrote:
Yes. That is how it is done. Caster was ruled to be eligible to compete in the female category. They know more about her situation than you or I. She broke no rules.
You just keep repeating the same nonsense, and you're wrong every time.
work it out, yeah! wrote:
Absolutely agree with the consensus but why the are we blaming poor Niyonsaba? She doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the other two.
Apparently she also:
"Both Semenya and Niyonsaba who is also a hyperandrogenic athlete finished 15 metres ahead of the rest of the field. Eunice Sum was well beaten in fourth position."
Comes from
http://kenyapage.net/commentary/kenya-athletics-news-3/court-ruling-paves-the-way-for-complete-dominance-by-semenya/clearly Melissa Bishop is an XY also. Have yopu seen her picture. doesn't look like a woman at all!
Here is Melissa with her boyfriend. Not with girlfriend like the other 3
This is an XX not XY
Cross gender wrote:
MIman77 wrote:It's wrong to have a "woman" with zero ovaries, undescended testes, who is a lesbian in this unique situation, and has the testosterone level of a man. Enough said. It's not fair because it's not a level playing field.
Would it be fair for Caster semen-ya to have a multi million dollar shoe contract? And for her to be a role model for the younger generation of women who want to succeed in athletics
Do we really want to encourage poor uneducated people to mutilate their male babies so as to have a chance of sporting success?
Justice4caster wrote:
Yes. That is how it is done. Caster was ruled to be eligible to compete in the female category. They know more about her situation than you or I. She broke no rules.
For someone who posts so much on their favourite athlete, you'd think you would do her the favour of researching the issue properly. We are currently in a two year moratorium period instructed by CAS to seek evidence on whether testosterone provides a significant enough advantage to athletes so as to justify differing categories of competition based on it.
Anything could happen in the future. Semenya could be dq'd, Semenya could be prohibited from running in all but the mens' races, athletes who have missed out on medals, finals and selection could sue Semenya, CAS and the IAAF. We just don't know. There is no ruling yet.
What we can say with certainty is that we have suppression of evidence here. In an era where athletes have to comply with strict doping protocols, have biological passports, which some athletes choose to make public, we have no official evidence in the public domain as to what qualifications Semenya has to be running with females, beyond being raised as a girl.
Now I don't know about you, but when there is suppression of evidence, I suspect something is wrong enough to be hidden. I suspect people like you, who come out with non factually and legally based platitudes and who are quick to demonise perfectly decent, moral people, to be typical of the type of charlatans who seek to make money out of people in the unfortunate state of someone like Semenya. Or more sinister still, others like Semenya.
Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui, etc. could of course clear up the confusion themselves by choosing to provide clear evidence of their qualifications to be women, or the advantages they have over the women in the race. But no, we get flexing muscles, overbearing domination even at the end of the race in trying to control people's reactions and strange general comments about it not being about appearance (its not Semenya, its about biological male characteristics such as testosterone).
Justice4caster wrote:
My response is simple. There is never reason to be hateful and intolerant. If people need to readjust their attitude on gender, then so be it.
You are aware that there are other areas of discrimination which raise exactly the same issues.
There are able-bodied people who identify as disabled.
There are people of one race who genuinely identify as people of another race.
So on the same thinking, we can look forward to non-disabled athletes succeeding in the Paralympics, because they are identify as disabled, and paralympians unable to compete against non-disabled people being called disgusting names for not being "fluid enough" in their approach to the disability spectrum.
Strange how when its women, all sorts of abuse is considered acceptable though.
