Race wants prize money back

I sent the race a message "Don't change your rules after the race!". I received a reply, I thought I should share it.

He also sent me: "What is your phone number? Let's talk". If someone wants to talk to him, you can find his phone number easily.

Hi,

Thank you for reaching out to us as we value all feedback - good and bad. To address your specific issue, we never "changed the rules after the race" because our rules have always been the same. During all of this confusion and frustration, we decided today to post a statement about the rules because our registration is already open for 2016 and people are already inquiring about the prize money for this year. We can't completely update our "Prizes and Awards" page for 2016 because of the current dispute. We are in full legal right to make any adjustments about our rules on our website at any time we like.

In the last 48 hours, there has been a lot of confusion and accusations about the prize money, which can be cleared up very quickly. Since we began our advertising campaign in early 2015, we have been promoting (with proof) $15,000 in prize money. The breakdown on our website has always and still is the same. Yes, it seems to be unclear to a few people, however, several people have come forward and said they knew it was a mistake and fully understood how the prize money was to be divided. If you add up the numbers with the total prize money being split between male and female, you will see that it adds up to $15,000. The way you think the prize money should be divided totals $30,000. DO THE MATH. If we had the original intention of giving $30,000, we damn well sure would have advertised our prize money at $30,000 instead of $15,000 to attract more participants, obviously.

We have already spoke to our lawyers and it's called Unjust Enrichment (legal term). Any company that accidentally gives more payment than they were supposed to has the right to reclaim the over-payment and if the other party does not repay that amount, it's illegal and the courts will force you to repay the owed amount, excluding lawyer fees and court costs. We certainly do not want to go that route, however, some of the winners said they will not pay back the money, so our legal team is already gathering the necessary paperwork, contact information and information. So, essentially, it's stealing, regardless of whether it was a mistake on our part or not. You will never find a company that will forfeit thousands of dollars because of an accounting mistake. It happens all time and this is not unusual.

Lastly, we are a registered 501c3 non-profit. ALL OF THE PROCEEDS from the race go back to programs such as Surf Camps for Special Needs Children, Youth Scholarships, Marine Mammal Rescue Equipment, Floating Beach Wheelchairs for the public, and the like. AGAIN, this race IS NOT for personal profit gain. We have 9 board members and 78% are volunteer. The remaining two members are paid just above minimum wage to organize this event each year.

Please take the time to read up on what our non-profit actually does, who we are, the amount of money we have given back, the positive impact we've made on the community and you will clearly see we are not out to cheat anyone out of any money. In fact, we give more prize money away than 95% of 5K and 10K's in the entire country. We have a great reputation and we are going to keep it that way.

Call me if you have any questions or would like to discuss this further.

Happy Holidays,

Bob Nichols

Nobody disputes the math. But it's you who screwed up and didn't do the math. The winners were supposed to do the math ahead of time and not take the huge checks? Why the anger at those who took the checks?

Then we get the boo hoo it's charity, boo hoo we're volunteers. Right to the "our lawyers are going to beat you up". No "we really screwed up", no hint of just being a standup guy and trying to resolve things amicably.

So what value was on the fake cheques given to each winner for the photos ? Presumably these photos are available somewhere.

What do other prizewinners from previous years say ?

Mike Ruiz wrote:We have a great reputation and we are going to keep it that way.

Sorry but you are wrong wrote:

However I have been a RD and assisted other RD's. It's no picnic believe me. To all of you guys who are up the arses of RD"s, try from scratch putting on a road race to benefit a charity. You'll soon find out how much fun it is. Or instead of posting on here, you could be working on your 5/10k time and race in the diamond league next summer. Then you won't have to worry about some amateur, volunteer RD messing things up for you.

We are not "up the xxxx" of RDs in general, just this particular one. I'm over 40 with a lifetime PR barely under 17, so I think it's a long shot to make the DL but I appreciate the vote of confidence anyway.

Now the RD will make an additional financial mistake by paying lawyer fees to recoup money he legally will not be entitled too. This guy is a piece of work. The other board members need to launch him from that seat.

The fact that the race is a non-profit is meaningless. Stop using it to guilt the OP.

Also, we need a photo of these giant checks.

Mike Ruiz wrote:

Since we began our advertising campaign in early 2015, we have been promoting (with proof) $15,000 in prize money. The breakdown on our website has always and still is the same. Yes, it seems to be unclear to a few people, however, several people have come forward and said they knew it was a mistake and fully understood how the prize money was to be divided. If you add up the numbers with the total prize money being split between male and female, you will see that it adds up to $15,000. The way you think the prize money should be divided totals $30,000. DO THE MATH. If we had the original intention of giving $30,000, we damn well sure would have advertised our prize money at $30,000 instead of $15,000 to attract more participants, obviously.

Often in the legal world you compare a person's actions to what a "reasonable" person would do. Is it reasonable to expect race entrants to add up the prize money across all divisions & sexes to make sure the math works out? No, that is not reasonable.

Well, Bob, if the mission of the non-profit is so important, maybe you shouldn't piss their money away through incompetence. Just a thought.

In light of the ongoing discussion, here is another chain of emails from the race director in question.

A close friend forwarded this exchange to me. He did not ask me to share this exchange.

As an attorney and a runner however, I felt that the information is general, non-privileged and would be of possible benefit to the creator of the thread and other prize money recipients. Initially my friend received the same reply from Mr. Nichols that another person already posted on here. The following exchange, which reads in reverse chronological order (most recent at the top), followed the initial form letter reply:

On Thursday, December 10, 2015, Matt wrote:

Robert,

I guess we share a desire to fight for what is right. I respect elite and emerging distance runners and It is always sad to see them taken advantage of by individuals such as yourself.

I'm not fighting someone else's battle.

And yes you are definitely stealing from runners while accusing them of stealing from you. It is very sad.

Best of luck with your legal endeavors,

Matt

On Thursday, December 10, 2015, robert nichols wrote:

Matt,

Please tell me how you are involved with this, who you are, and why you are so passionate about this dispute. We don't have your name as one of the prize money recipients, so if you're fighting someone else's battle, it's not necessary because we've been in contact with all of the winners and it will be handled professionally. Yes, we updated the website today because we have our 2016 registration already open and people have been inquiring about the 2016 prize money. We can't update the 2015 Prize & Awards page on our website because the dispute, so we updated it with the rules, so there is better clarity for next year as some of you didn't get it.

As to the previous year's prize amounts, we've changed the awards every year and 2016 will be significantly different as well. No one year has been the same in prize money since our inaugural in 2013.

I don't think you're fully understanding the situation and who we are as a non-profit, which is just fine because I don't think you're directly involved. If you think we're "stealing from the runners", please stop emailing us because it's proving your lack of understanding and it's not worth our life minutes to argue with you, esp. when you're not directly involved. If you are directly involved, please call and we can go over everything once again over the phone.

760-846-5721.

Bob Nichols

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:12 PM, Matt wrote:

I'm sorry that you feel that you are entitled to steal the money from the runners to whom it was promised while accusing them of stealing. What's right is own your mistake. Cover it yourself- don't lose your own integrity. if it was an "error" why did you pay out the higher amounts in past years and only now, retroactively, make the change and threaten the runners with legal action? That's not right

Why is your website only updated with the clarification today while the Google cache reveals in the past it did not explain the split at all.

What if they already donated the money to a charity of their choice rather than yours?

On Thursday, December 10, 2015, robert nichols wrote:

Hi Matt,

I'm sorry you feel that way as it's not a threat or intimidation. That money is earmarked for charity and unfortuantely it must be legally reclaimed as some of the runners refuse to.pay back money that is not theirs. We will always fight for what's right and I admire that quality in anyone.

Bob

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 7:25 PM, Matt wrote:

Good luck with the threats and intimidation towards runners!

Do the right thing and return the money. Someone made a mistake in their math or wording on the website. You have money that you are not entitled to.

You don't want to be known as "that guy."

Do the Right Thing. wrote:

Do the right thing and return the money. Someone made a mistake in their math or wording on the website. You have money that you are not entitled to.

You don't want to be known as "that guy."

Hi Bob.

Do the Right Thing. wrote:

Do the right thing and return the money. Someone made a mistake in their math or wording on the website. You have money that you are not entitled to.

You don't want to be known as "that guy."

Similarly you don't want to be known as "That RD"

I heard that they also made a mistake in how they displayed the initial registration fees and are asking all of the entrants to send an additional $10.

They all must give back the $10 they stole from the charity.

Bob:

Your website said $1800 for first place and so on. You paid the winner $1800 in a public ceremony with a big check.

Your website also said the total was $15,000, yet you paid out nearly $30,000. Do the math! The $15,000 on your website was wrong. Or maybe you intended to say $15,000 for each sex.

What you publicly paid the winners was consistent with what the website said winners would get. Seems like the $15,000 was the wrong or misleading number. Why do you get to now say actually the $1800 that was actually paid out was the wrong number?

Why don't you assume the best and split the difference? If you received $1800 and they say you were only entitled to $900, give $450 back. It's not as hard on you and it still makes them eat a bit of their mistake. Suggest that to the RD and see what he says. Also, try to negotiate for free entry next year because you are being so nice.

Star wrote:

I heard that they also made a mistake in how they displayed the initial registration fees and are asking all of the entrants to send an additional $10.

They all must give back the $10 they stole from the charity.

I made the point earlier that they advertise a 50% off deal. They need to contact everyone who got 50% off (if they did it this past race), tell them it was a misunderstanding, and get them to kick in the other half. If they have integrity, they'll send in the other half right away.

I actually wonder if the 50% off was the source of the budget shortfall.

A question for any lawyers or law savvy individuals, could an industry standard be applied to the prize money listing in order to support those who won prize money. Whenever a race lists prize money it lists the amount a race winner will win regardless of gender. Races never combine the prize money given to both Male and Females into one number on the prize money breakdown and then split it. This is the first time I have ever seen any race do this. Although it seems doubtful that the original intent was that the money listed was to be split between genders.

Since industry standard would lead someone in the running community to believe that the prize money listed would go to one individual, not split between male and female winners and it was never specified the money would be split wouldn't liability fall with the race? The race directors ignorance to standard prize money listings should not relieve him of fault.

Taking $900 (well, really $15000) away from a charity at Christmas time. Tsk Tsk

I think the race is getting bad legal advice. This is not an unjust enrichment situation - it is the race trying to change contract terms after the fact.

Any reasonable reading of the race terms (before the race altered them) would lead to the conclusion that the 1st place man got $1,800, not $900. No normal person would calculate the total prize money and deduce that a mistake had been made. If there was a mistake (which is questionable), it was a unilateral mistake on the race's part, which will not void a contract.

The prize money is an offer to enter into a unilateral contract to receive that amount ($1,800 for 1st place in the 10 mile, for example), and when the winners performed by running in the race and placing, it became a binding contract. The runners who placed are entitled to the prize money offered, not half of what was offered.

Also, after the race, the race acted in accordance with the plain interpretation of the race terms by creating oversized checks with $1,800, and by issuing checks in the full amount. This makes the race's current claim of mistake highly suspect.

When you have a binding legal contract, the question of unjust enrichment never arises.

Other posters have posted things about "integrity." The runners acted with complete integrity. They raced and won the prize that was offered. If anyone is not acting with integrity, it's the race by not standing behind the prize money that they offered and actually awarded. Being a charity is not a free pass to get out of a contract.

As I said before, if the winners want to make a charitable donation to the race because they support the charity, they should do so. But the race is not right in demanding it back and making legal threats to people who showed up, raced, and won the prize money that was offered.