This is how deep is doping in Kenya

Dude, everything Canova says is true about the placebo if you read Tyler Hamilton's book, or Floyd Landis, etc. They all FELT they could recover and hammer, they had a confidence about themselves while doping. Once off the sauce, their confidence dissipated quickly and their performances disappeared and they got injured.

fred wrote:

I have a theory too wrote:

How about that when people state that they feel that PEDs are *part* of the picture that we don't represent them as saying PEDs are *solely* responsible for the result, because such a statement is a misrepresented strawman of their point. Doing such makes it impossible to have a reasonable discussion on the topic.

No strawwomen - 6 of the top 8 times run were by Radcliffe, Shobukhova and Jeptoo. Jeptoo tested positive for EPO, Shobukhova failed the blood profile, and Radcliffe had various changing reasons for her offscores.

Those are real states and not strawman redirects.

What kind of reasonable discussion do you wish to have?

I side with you, Fred, but I have no idea what this has to do with my post.

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:

My proposal is not for showing my theory about EPO is correct, but for cleaning the widespread opinion that ALL THE BEST KENYAN are doped.

I think that the only way for fighting EPO is to show that the number ones are the best without using.

You will never do this because antidoping is a big business, as you said, and they don't want to prove that doping doesn't work! It would be the same (and is the same) as big pharma proving that drugs don't work; they are not going to do it! All you would be doing by having them increasing the testing, is making their doping structure stronger and stronger, that they never want to stop doing!

Consider, who is investing in the anti doping movement, and they are the same ones who profit by having it perpetuate on and on. Plus it is not only the money, but also the power and control, because they can take bribes, and also control who gets the medals and not. They can make guilty people clean, and clean people guilty, as they wish, all the while making more and more money and increasing their profits.

Whoops, here is the same post with quotations.

Renato Canova wrote:

My proposal is not for showing my theory about EPO is correct, but for cleaning the widespread opinion that ALL THE BEST KENYAN are doped.

I think that the only way for fighting EPO is to show that the number ones are the best without using.

You will never do this because antidoping is a big business, as you said, and they don't want to prove that doping doesn't work! It would be the same (and is the same) as big pharma proving that drugs don't work; they are not going to do it! All you would be doing by having them increasing the testing, is making their doping structure stronger and stronger, that they never want to stop doing!

Consider, who is investing in the anti doping movement, and they are the same ones who profit by having it perpetuate on and on. Plus it is not only the money, but also the power and control, because they can take bribes, and also control who gets the medals and not. They can make guilty people clean, and clean people guilty, as they wish, all the while making more and more money and increasing their profits.

Jon Orange wrote:

Rustlers Rhapsody wrote:

What is the "faster" point where this takes place?

It happens at all paces for which the athlete has trained.

You said 'faster" marathon runners use less oxygen. Who are the faster people?

Jon Orange wrote:

Roulettte's syndrome wrote:

Sure. You pay for the study and I'll take that bet.

I can do a simplified study, if you are willing to take part. Test my and others performance several times in one day, and see how I improve with each test. Why would that be?

Or how you get worse as you get tired.

Renato Canova wrote:

At the end, I can say what follows :

a) EPO can help athletes with LITTLE training, compared with their possibilities, to reach better aerobic level

b) The same athletes, increasing their training "clean" to the same level of their training "doped", achieve the same performances

d) Using EPO, athletes can reach an aerobic level very close the maximum level they can reach with proper training, with little volume and intensity.

If a good runner comes out of the desert with no water, completely dehydrated and you give him a test, the performance can be very poor. But if you first give him plenty of orange juice, then the performance can be better. Thus we can all say that orange juice gives a 10 percent increase in performance, and is not fair for athletics, because it helps athletes with "little water" compared to possibilities, to reach better levels.

However if the runner comes out of the desert and has been drinking water the whole time, then his performance can be the same, even better than from getting the orange juice. And if he'd had carrot juice with some cherries, then his performance would be even greater.

Let's say instead of any of these he got EPO when he came out of the desert, and then had a test, probably not as good as the others, but still better than being dehydrated, the same situation that we have with the EPO and the other drugs in athletics.

Thus I agree with your (a) but only for these reasons, not because there is anything special with EPO, as there isn't. It is simply better than starving, but not much, and certainly not any kind of solution. Any person can do better without any EPO drug.

Regarding (d), it is an exaggeration at best, and a joke.

Certainly there are runners who are quite fast without doing exactly the same training as others, but this is due to natural abilities, not because of what training group they were in, or what country.

Amazing the depth of denial that pervades these guys.

For "EPO helps even at the top" discussions, I draw a line assuming an arbitrary "pre-EPO" level of 1990.As a 30:30 runner, the point where EPO started to help, Cathal Lombard was far from that, when he decided to make many significant changes in his training.The post-EPO 27:33 runner just managed to bring Ireland up to the level of 1973 England, in line with other pre-EPO American and European records, and still would not have prevented him from being lapped by about 10 other runners.

preciously jaded wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

(here's a challenge: has any elite runner ever said that? I know I know -- people think Christian Hesch and Cathal Lombard are elite -- I regret asking).

This is classic, and I am really beginning wonder whether you know what you are talking about when it comes to distance running.

Cathal Lombard ran 27-33 secs for 10000m. This was an Irish National record (in a country that has produced runners such as Mark Caroll, John Treacy etc ... ). It was also well inside the Olympic A standard qualifying time.

But you consider that is not elite.

What is your threshold standard for elite? Nothing slower than Bekele?

serious b.s from renato and j.r

contradictions galore, did u renato just say epo works via training.

good misdirection

ur lies are getting more desperate .comparin kenya athletes wit andorra. or all in mind.

clearly a liar

j.r bio-eff wat

ur test useless as some bigest dopers ever

rudisha was so dirty

kiprop-epo & igf-1 lr3

shaheen loaded on cera

iaafbanu

epo-denial should be treated same as holocaust-denial.

off to china wit ya renato and take j.r wit u

whoa!dopingfeelsgud

aduck, apart the fact nobody understand what you write, when you give a list of substance (frequently you give) it seems you know something about doping.

However, when you say Shaheen used Cera and Rudisha is doped, the reality about who are you becomes very clear : you are a mythomaniac, with a lively imagination.

I suggest you to write some spy story, having doping as main point. I'm sure you can succeed, with all the idiots who are around.

Rita Jeptoo for instance. Coached by Renato Canova, she was a great runner, coached by a great coach that says and knows how to maximize the performance without drugs. She is a Kenyan training in altitude, etc. But since she starts taking EPO she was a better runner with the use of doping than before till the day she was caught. How is this possible ? You can say many things, but THE FACT is that with doping she enhanced her performances.

You can say that one average runner did worst performances with the usage of EPO, but what we knew, is that many of the world class, top level did the best performances with the use of doping, namely EPO. From Mohammed. Mourhit, to Rachid Ramzi, to the Russians, to Marta Dominguez, to many others that we start to know by the tests that did use EPO wit success. If you want I can show you thje long list of the ones that were caught with EPO and we will see if their best performances were or weren´t done with EPO. That what is relevant, and not that a few 2:18 marathon mediocre Kenyans that were caught with EPO.

I can let you know why most of the Kenyans that were caught with EPO are mediocre runners and only a few of the world Kenyans from the world top class they didn´t. For the same reason that Lamine Diack the past IAAF president was arrested and put in jail in Switzerland. Corruption in athletics. For the same reason that only now we know that Russians did dope, and in ten past we didn´t. Corruption in the athletic sport at every level, from the IAAF, the national Federations, the WADA, the agents of doping, the doctors of doping tests controls what so ever.

Greetings.

António Cabral wrote:

For the same reason that only now we know that Russians did dope, and in ten past we didn´t

That Russia has been using its resources to circumvent anti-doping efforts and aid the chemical enhancement of its team members is not news to the professional athletics community.

trollism wrote:

Left Said Fred wrote:

Russia had RUSADA actively assisting athletes avoid positive tests. There is no equivilant in Kenya. The out of competition tests conducted in Kenya are conducted by international and not local testers. And in any case, AK couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, nevermind a concerted effort to evade positive tests.

Yes, the tests are carried out by the IAAF testers.

No chance of any corruption there then.

Nothing is impossible. However, these people are awful at keeping secrets. Shubokhova is asking for a refund now that she's been outed. If Jeptoo had been given similar consideration, she would have said something to that effect.

I have never been convinced that all the top Kenyans, or all the top Athletes are doping. I know there are some here who do believe that.

There have long been posts on here that some athletes, or some countries, are able to dope wholesale because they are protected by the hierarchy of the sport. I've honestly written off such accusations, but with the recent IAAF revelations, those claims certainly look more plausible.

Anyway, to address specifically your proposal for testing, I have no idea what such a sample would prove. It is already well known that athletes can dope and beat the tests. The athletes on your list could do the same. Some of them may be clean, some of them may be dirty. Without knowing that as the baseline, then it is impossible to draw any conclusions regardless of the test results.

It does seem a little short-sighted to focus on EPO to the exclusion of every other drug. There are quite a few different PEDs, which help with distance running and some of these have a much greater body of research proving efficacy.

For myself, I choose to believe simply that I can't determine who is doping and who is not. I simply don't know. I try to believe that every athlete is clean until it is proven otherwise, although I naturally have some more suspicion about some athletes than others. I am unwilling to say any particular athlete could not be doping. I simply do not know for sure about anybody except myself.

You can only kid yourself about being recovered when you're not and training harder in that state for so long.

Ridiculous to think that this is the secret edge of EPO etc.