protecting daughter from coaches prior to the state meet

Hmmm… there is some merit in the pro vs. con analysis, but some things are tough to measure. I did like your comment about taking a step back and holding up the situation against your core philosophies. That's good.

To points 1 and 2, I would give yes's to both of those. To the third - about whether or not I think she could be a professional. I think we know that A) It's unknowable… how many elite professionals KNEW when they were Sophomores that they're going pro, and B) unlikely for everyone even though some make it. I guess a sophomore girl to be realistic about going pro would likely need to run a sub4:50 1600m to be considered "on track", and I think that would be unexpected. So, I guess I'd have to say that based on that criteria, going pro is not likely. But, again, I don't think it's very relevant nor very measurable at this age (recognizing that some, and arguably the best, like Mary Slaney or Mary Cain do show exceptional talent early on).

So, yeah, I think there is an issue, but no, I don't want to move. I guess that leaves letting the chips fall where they may, and that is probably the most likely outcome.

You'd think extensively volunteering and providing for the program in different ways would help, but it doesn't seem to be.

Why???, here's the thing, if you come into the thread and see others saying that I am a helicopter parent etc etc etc, then it is easy to assume the worst where there are unanswered questions. It wasn't my plan to have to type long explanations on why I (or my daughter) have done this or that. We are 100% on confident in that the coach sucks… a little bit by what he is having them do (but we can work around that), more for his complete lack of vision and goals for the kids, and then even more with how he has acted unprofessionally. (People outside the situation could give him the benefit of the doubt and think that maybe he is just socially inept, but I don't think that is the case.) A frustrating thing for me is that he knows better on some of these things, but he acquiesces to other coaches who know even less.

Anyway, as I said upthread, we had the same coach in HS who was really really good back then and is even better now. That coach stressed how each run had a purpose, and he made the schedules known to everyone. While there are some general philosophies that can be effective, there is no super secret magical formula. I've known the coach for over 20 years, and we've been friends. My daughter had a good XC season, won end-of-the-season team awards (being 2nd on the team), and we never not once talked about what they were doing. NO helicoptering… sorry. So, when my daughter said that there was confusion amongst the coaches and they were doing screwy stuff in track, and given how the coach and I go back (with the shared experience of having a known schedule available to anyone who asked), then maybe you can see how I assumed (wrongly, of course) that the coach would make it available now. It was like I disrespectfully came in bossing them around. Also, it was clear that I had NO intention on giving them unsolicited advice… in my experience, the best coaches like to work hand-in-hand with parents to achieve the goals everyone wants.

Of course, in retrospect, you (and others) are right in that was a miscalculation on my part. The outcome was not what I expected or wanted. Something snapped in them from that point onward. And, then, my daughter has felt she's had to put up barriers to keep from getting hurt, which I am sure comes off as "chip on the shoulder-ish".

Have I mentioned that we have not said one less-than-positive word, or given ANY advice this season either. So, according to many of you, my out of control helicoptering is one question about a schedule over the course of two years. And, according to you, that one question (an "attack!", no less), which is not a big deal given the coach and my shared experience, is license for for him to act shitty towards my daughter. OK - got it. I'll be more careful next time to kiss ass and prostrate myself before my sucky HS coaching overlords in the future. ha ha

DPL wrote:

While I haven't read all of the posts, it seems to me that your daughter has been put under a lot of pressure and is not having a fun time with it while you try to undermine the coach. She then probably has an unfavorable opinion of the coach based on what you say at home and therefore comes across as being bitter during practice.

Nope. We tell her she's gotta do what the coach says. She has an unfavorable opinion of the coach because of how he treats others and for not coaching well in other respects. Most of the time, we can share a laugh at him, though!

Fair enough. How much time would you think is about right to accurately assess things?

Though I am pretty sure it is not the situation here, I like and appreciate the Gags example.

I DO wholeheartedly agree that the reason the coach has acted how he has is a bit of a mystery. Maybe it's just too much stress for him? And, I am not saying that lightly as he has classes he teaches, and I think he thought it would be a breeze.

A Teach wrote:

OP,

Do you act like this with kid's teachers?

None of my children's teachers have acted similarly. If they did, I would probably be more aggressive in meeting with them and asking why they are being a jerk. Because of our history, and because of the threat or potentiality of things getting worse and having to deal with it longer, I've given a much greater allowance and benefit of the doubt to the coach for poor behavior.

Ok. I had been thinking that I should try to get people back on track for the purpose of the thread, though I get how it is more fun to critique me. Anyone trying to convince me that the coach is not in the wrong is truly wasting their time because I know how much experience you have in this situation and I know what I know.

That said, your post, lub, is truly a work of art - awesome! I mean it. You were very thoughtful, wrote your post exceptionally well, provided a great personal anecdote… and, surprisingly to me, it was enough to make me reconsider once again (for the millionth time) the occurrences and how I / we've handled it. Good job with that post, and thank you again for the thoughtfulness of it. Finally, I like your hardass Mom style.. that's cool. :)

Please see my above reply to Why??? on why/how I didn't think that asking for the schedule was that big of a deal. Yes, a misstep on my part (given the coach's response). If I could do it again, I wouldn't have done that (obviously). But, I still don't understand how a coach getting a question from a parent makes it alright for the coach to take whatever issues he has out on an athlete.

A Nitpicky critique of your post… Your football analogy doesn't do much for me. At least where I live, football is king and all other programs our way behind. The football team has ~40 guys and 6-8 coaches. The head coach actually gets paid pretty well, and if he even teaches 1 class, I know it is not much. I am sure all the assistants get paid a lot more than the xc and track coaches. These guys know football at least as well as most parents, the expectations for development and winning are high, and I am sure they get feedback (both amongst themselves and others). They're held accountable. That said, I bet if the head coach went to the same high school and had an ongoing relationship with Drew Brees, and if Drew's son was on the team, he probably wouldn't flip out if Drew asked what activities the workouts were comprised of. What do you think?

One thing that your post has made me think about is that I am (why, I am not totally sure… it feels innate) more protective of my wife and daughter(s) than I am of my sons. My wife and daughter are very capable and spirited, no doubt. But, if there were some dangerous situation, my first instinct would be to protect them (and I would likely be expecting my sons to help in defending). How that applies to this situation is that I would be more likely to tell my sons to suck it up. When it's my daughter, though, we know the mean words have more impact, it makes my wife upset, and then it is certainly an issue for me, too. So, there is something there that is not totally consistent to think about.

Thanks again for the post.

Excellent comment, Ukelele Guy. I wonder if the coach feels like that. I know my daughter works hard, does what is asked, but given the circumstance, I am sure she is not fun to coach. She gets along well with the team, and she is careful to not stir up additional trouble. I found your post to be very fair and a probably a very close depiction of where things are now (except maybe a little gracious on the degree of professionalism). But, very good comment that did make me reconsider the other side a good bit. Thanks.

Question for you, Ukelele Guy… Lets say you coach a girl that runs for 4 years, tries hard, does what you say, gets along with the teammates, and runs well. However, she is not your favorite, and the relationship has been quite cool since her freshman year. She does what you mandate, but doesn't want to hang out or act super appreciative. (And, as speculation, this could influence underclassman.) If a college calls, what do you say to them?

Uber, what year is your daughter? Does she have younger siblings? What will you do in future years? Why not just transfer schools and in the meanwhile make the most of your last week at this school with this coach?[/quote]

Sophomore.

Yes.

Don't know.

I don't think we can transfer without moving. Regardless, will do the best to make the most of every week!

Thanks for the post, D1 collegiate coach. I have to admit that I am shocked - SHOCKED - at the defense on Letsrun for pos coaching. I mean, really? A few years ago, the boys track coach had them running 15-20 miles/week, but pushing the football sled in lieu of a regular run 3 times a week in order to help their power. Awesome… let's defend that. I thought people had a clue here, no?

Again, I am mostly irritated by coach making himself an obstacle to overcome, but it is also irritating that with a school as large as this one is - with great talent all over the place (not talking about my daughter, though she does have some) - they are happy to run win district, run sub220 in the 8, and 5:10 in the 16. Zero vision. Zero goal setting.

I am not doubting that there are more issues on the girl's side. For some reason (and maybe I am wrong or old-fashioned), but I feel that if girl's coaches are a little more sensitive, and spend a little more time connecting (letting the girls know that they care about them, running aside), then I think girls would run through a brick wall for their coach. So, I think it cuts both ways.

I respect that you had the wherewithal to not interfere - I am sure it was hard. It also see the politically expediency and possibly the best situation to apologize (and swallow somethin'!), and I know that I could do it. But, I don't think my wife or daughter could ever allow me to do it. They have a strong sense of right / wrong, politics and outcomes be damned.

It has been good fodder for great discussions with our daughter, and I am sure we'll have many more.

Thanks again for the thoughtful insights… question for you. Do you ever call prospective athlete's coaches? How much does that conversation influence your perspective on these runners?

Ha ha… nice post, blueshoeswerebest. I am glad this perspective was communicated. It is EXACTLY what my wife (great runner, has coached, is smart) says.

That said, I do think that it could be possible that if I grovel and subjugate myself to my new running Gods (the coaches), and if my daughter were also able to pretend convincingly to love and adore them (which is more doubtful), then I could see them behaving better, particularly as she runs better. It would be so false as to be disgusting, but it is a possibility, I think.

More than likely, if we stay and they stay, I think she will be able to move forward, get better, know what she needs to do. She will keep her distance and their influence as little as possible.

That will come, but I still want to give her the best environment this season.

It's the man in the mirror.

Dear uber,

Do you plan on being this way when your daughter attends college?

Thanks in advance,

Future Coach

oregonian #2

You totally agree with me. A coach who is dangerous/illegal in whatever way needs immediate intervention but that is not poor coaching. It is dangerous/illegal behavior and every one is on the lookout for them and so they are rare.

But yes, good coaches are the exception. Even if they are a VERY bad coach who knows nothing about the sport and for example has them play volley ball every day for practice it is still NOT a reason to interfere.

Why shouldn't you interfere? Well the coach has all the cards. For example, if you mention to the coach (no change) and then the AD that they are playing volleyball and not running at practice, when the AD mentions it to the coach, the coach will just start having them run a couple laps to warmup and know it was you who complained.

Nothing more will happen because the AD knew from the start the coach was not any good. The AD just applied the hiring rules and this was the person who was selected. The next person down the list was even worse.

saVOKMmoRT wrote:

You can't interfere for poor coaching EVER. The AD knew the coach was technically poor when they hired them. All they did was pick the best of a bad lot.

If a coach is a sexual predator then you are not going to interfere EVER? This is the observation the OP made earlier, that there is a point where as a parent you must interfere to protect your kid. (note: sexual predator is just an example)

As a rule I say good coaches are the exception, and I have respect for every person who is willing to coach my kids teams for very little pay. It would take a VERY VERY VERY bad coach before I intervened.

Michael Jackson's Ghost wrote:

It's the man in the mirror.

yeah yeah... yeah yeah... Nananna na naa nah... gonna feel real good... shamone... no no

future coach wrote:

Dear uber,

Do you plan on being this way when your daughter attends college?

Thanks in advance,

Future Coach

No, I don't. But you bring up a great point about parenting philosophies. We think that a TON of the most important parenting happens real early. Then, by the time they get into late Junior High / High School, you can talk to them a little more adult-like, and maybe a few tweaks can happen and lessons learned, but the mold has largely already been cast. By the time they are in late high school, they should be close to where you can see them being able to handle being on their own. (I am sure that will make many of you SO happy to know - Thanks for caring!) Then, assuming they are mature enough after HS, then they are pretty much completely on their own, and all their social life, responsibilities, trouble they can get into - all of it - is on them. We're still supportive, and will give advice/opinion if asked, but it is much different than before they flew the coop. We let (and will let) collegiate kids stay at home over Christmas and summers and we'll help with college as a parting gift to help them on their way. In short, we feel our roles and responsibilities as parents changes as they get older.

We have dear friends - they are great - who seemed a little less involved with their Jr. High and HS students. Then, oddly, they seemed MORE involved with their kids collegiate lives, and THEN, they let them come back and live with them for years afterwards!?!?! WTF????? Talk about screwed up - That's totally backward. Talk about Helicoptering - It can't get worse than that - these are grown up adults!

If that is becoming more "normal" (and I've heard/read that it is even though I can't believe it), then i guess it doesn't surprise me when a lot of people don't understand our different style.

saVOKMmoRT wrote:

But yes, good coaches are the exception. Even if they are a VERY bad coach who knows nothing about the sport and for example has them play volley ball every day for practice it is still NOT a reason to interfere.

Why shouldn't you interfere? Well the coach has all the cards. For example, if you mention to the coach (no change) and then the AD that they are playing volleyball and not running at practice, when the AD mentions it to the coach, the coach will just start having them run a couple laps to warmup and know it was you who complained.

Nothing more will happen because the AD knew from the start the coach was not any good. The AD just applied the hiring rules and this was the person who was selected. The next person down the list was even worse.

With hindsight, I can see you're right. My mistake was thinking that maybe these guys would not totally suck.

My only quibble is that I feel dangerous/illegal behavior (if/when it happens) IS part of a coach's coaching. At least it would be in the situations in which it occurs.

I am disappointed with the school system. I have so much respect for great teachers and coaches. Their role is invaluable. They should be paid so much more. Poor educators, who don't understand the importance of what they do and take their positions for granted, disgust me. They are grossly overpaid, should not be allowed anywhere near the kids, and, unfortunately, are protected by the system. They are the new priests...

Thanks for responding to me. As an FYI, especially on this website where people can be out of control, I try to make my own opinion based on the facts I have read so while I did read about the helicopter parents comments, I tried to form my own opinion. Didn't really say you need to kiss ass but as you can see when people attack you, it's easy to get defensive (it was not asking the question that I meant was an attack it was the part when you said "I reassured them that I would not even really look at it - I just kind of doubted that it existed when I wouldn’t be allowed to see it.") It may not have been right to take that out on your daughter but it probably led them to be very defensive in interactions with your family (and everyone from coach to you to sister overreact) because they did not want to lead to other issues like you are seeing that you are getting defensive with people's reactions here criticizing what you did.

I guess the real question is what is your goal and what do you want to happen? I guess that is something that none of us really understand. The subject heading made it seem like there is some abuse (tough to describe things at times so no biggie) but from your description, other than maybe ignoring some and not liking her, it doesn't seem that you believe there are any such concerns though you can correct me if I am wrong.

It seems that you don't want the coaches coaching your child. If she wants to be part of the school's team, she needs to be coached by the school's coaches. To expect otherwise, is not reasonable. Whether you like them and how they do things or not, they have been hired for that job. Whether they are good at it or not is not the point, it is their job and they are doing it. You cannot expect (without some serious allegations) for the school to agree to remove the coaches from what they are doing in the middle of a season and you cannot reasonably agree to have the coaches not to bring her to the state meet (and most if not all states require the coaches to be at the meet) or to not coach her leading up to the meet as they have done all season. Can you lay out in a few words what you really want to happen?

otter wrote:

I replied without having read your last post, however I'm still confused.

No, I don't think someone can answer your direct question without understanding the problem.

If you really want to know what happened, you have to read between the lines.

First, we have an arrogant parent who thinks that he knows everything due to his prior success and the coach knows nothing because he was not as good.

Second, he has projected that attitude into his daughter, and she is acting like she is better than the team, and does not need a coach around.

Third, we have a helicopter parent who does not have the balls to discuss things with the coach, or he thinks the coach is not qualified (see point #1) and the coach wants nothing more than to be done with this family.

Fourth, the OP is a troll. Either that or he is an arrogant prick who condescends to others.

Are you and your daughter going share an apartment when she goes to college or will you guys just live in the dorm?