Ryan Hall Out of Chicago

A more recent press release from the Chicago marathon quotes Ryan Hall saying he got too eager, overtrained, and was suffering from perpetual fatigue.

http://www.chicagomarathon.com/CMS400Min/uploadedFiles/Chicago_Marathon/Press_Center/Hall%20Withdraws%20from%20BACCM%20FINAL.pdf

Isn't it Mahon's job to keep him from overtraining? I frankly got a little concerned when he said (in one of the Flotrack videos, I think) that he was starting his buildup where most of his prior buildups had ended.

usaxcrunner753 wrote:

I THINK EVERYBODY WHO HAS POSTED ON THIS DISCUSSION THREAD SHOULD STOP AND THINK BEFORE THEY CRITICIZE HALL'S DECISION TO DROP OUT OF THE CHICAGO MARATHON. THINK EVERYBODY, HOW MANY PEOPLE, LET ALONE AMERICANS CAN RUN 2:06-2:09 IN THE MARATHON? NOT TO MANY, SO BEFORE YOU JUDGE HIM, TRY TO JUDGE YOURSELF. IT IS EASY TO JUDGE OTHERS AND NOT OURSELVES.

TYPICAL AND I MEAN TYPICAL LETSRUN RESPONSE

'You're not as as good as runner x, therefore you can't criticize them.'

Welcome to the world of sports. As athletes you will get criticized and bashed even if you are good. When the Celtics lost game 7 of the NBA finals, a series they shouldn't have been in to begin with being seeded 4th in the east, this after winning the title in 08 the celtics forums were livid about the loss. They blaimed KG for this and that, they called for Doc Rivers firing. They said Ray Allen was washed up. Hmmmmm sounds familiar? Yet there was nobody on that site saying, lets see you take the court against the lakers. Nobody was saying how many NBA titles have you won? None of that. This is sports and the internet guys

Its rediculous how many people come on here and give professionals a pass for any criticism what so ever, just because they can race faster. Even the best have flaws and mistakes and are open and should be criticized.

numiler22 wrote:

And this year Anna Pierce ran sub-par and Uceny jumped to the front..I see no real consistency with Mahon..I also see to real speed development among the true distance runners he has..no real track or xc seasons..

I do see a pattern for Mahon. People go there with a pretty good background, usually at 10K or shorter (or they are not accepted in). They build a big base and run well for maybe 2 years. Then they lose that speed from the specific shorter race training and stagnate. Breaking out of stagnation requires a break to get the body and mind fresh, then a modified approach to the training.

BTW: Josh Cox is not coached by Mahon. He is coached by Larsen (loosely I believe). Meb is coached by Larsen. Dan Browne was coached by Salazar.

agip wrote:

Americans shouldn't treat the marathon as just another race - it is so hard mentally and physically to train for and compete in year after year...

People should pick a new specialty every year and go for it. Hall should focus on xc this year, for example, and then the 10k, and then maybe a marathon year.

Just too hard for Americans to train 130 mpw endlessly

I've not read through this entire thread; nor do I care to. But I agree with this sentiment, even if some notable runners have gotten away with it in their careers. I've shared my sentiments on Hall before, about the beating of Boston's hills on the legs, of running too many hard efforts in a row, of staleness. Generally, I think periodization is necessary and helpful. Build up for a fall marathon, then leverage that enormous base for a spring cross/track season. Or do it like Gotcher and Ritz did... winter/spring marathon, then summer PR on the track. Mix it up. Don't run too many marathons. Not everyone is a 5'2", 100 lb Kenyan.

nice to see your still alive skinny DAN, Ryan will recover as we know. Two of the most inspirational athletes I have ever worked with are Ryan and Meb. I feel blessed to work for and with them. They remain strong and will crush..now and in the future

nice to see your still alive skinny DAN, Ryan will recover as we know. Two of the most inspirational athletes I have ever worked with are Ryan and Meb. I feel blessed to work for and with them. They remain strong and will crush..now and in the future

hey Skinny DAN, nice to know your alive. As far as Ryan, he will be back and strong as ever. He has had a tough and unique training regime this season, so cut the kid some slack. Lets keep the positive side up. We all have our dog days...

The agent makes the deals. Focusing on big5 marathons is a very easy business decision and dictates the coaching direction.

Would he benefit from group training? Hall is a lot like Culpepper in that he is more of a lone runner. He is way too set and comfortable to suddenly change his training approach. Also, Culpepper came out blazing by tying Alberto's marathon debut time of 2.09.4x. He then ran well, but never bettered his virgin moment.Hall's half marathon record is his best performance to date. He solo'd that beauty. He then took that fitness to the marathon where he again busted the fastest debut from an American. A year later he ran 2.06.xx. There have been struggles since then.It must be confusing for Hall for sure. I think time off is good. As a believer, he has food greater than running Chicago. Be humble and invest less in "self".It remains my hope that McDougal and Hall will both receive the green light to reach the full potential of their talents.

USA1st wrote:

Good, insightful post. He'd benefit from group training and more frequent competitions. And by competition, I mean race as in ignore the fuggin watch, go with the leaders even if it hurts, and throw down when the time comes.

Rojo, anyone can give Hall decent workouts to run a marathon. Heck I could, and I'm 21 years old. But dealing with the boatloads of OTHER stuff that comes from being the top marathoner in the US--or the expectation to be--that's a whole 'nother story, and you do not have anywhere near the experience to deal with that. Why do you think the best athletes almost exclusively gravitate towards a handful of coaches (Dr. Rosa, Canova, Salazar)? It's because these men know how to deal with the athlete's psychological issues, especially those that are unique to the world-class runner. Renato Canova talks a LOT in his posts about keying workouts to how the athlete is feeling, physically, mentally, and emotionally. He talks about how he needs to know everything about his athletes--their family life, their relationships, their diet, what they do with their free time--the relationship between an elite athlete and his or her coach is a very special thing, and it is very different from the relationship you have with your college runners. Elite coaches often spend several weeks or months per year LIVING with their coaches, because that's how important the mental aspect is at their level.

I agree with your post with one exception. Athletes do not gravitate to Salazar. They are told that if they want to keep their Nike contract, they MUST train with Alberto.

Someone on here said that he blew out his engine running that 2:06 in London and I'd have to agree. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that was his third marathon and it was about 3 months or so after his 59 half. So he was coming in with all the confidence in the world and was with the leaders up until the last couple of miles. At this point he really crashed and his last mile was like 5:40, otherwise he would have been 2:05 and right in the mix at the finish. The point is that he really had to go to the wall to run 2:06 low and he was completely fried after that effort and probably needed about 6 weeks of complete rest and another 6 weeks of very easy running. But instead he trained through and about 4 months later showed up in Beijing and finished back in 10th place and was never in the mix up front. He was burnt coming into the Olympics and the Beijing race only worsened his condition and he really has been a factor in any marathon since. What he needs is some time away from the sport to recover from the damage done in 2008.

@djgylend,

Your time line is a little off, but the gist of your argument is right on which also ties into my argument earlier in the Thread of Mahon being a hack coach. Hall was fried finishing London '08, not London '07, when his pace dropped to mid 5:##.

Hall's Half Marathon record and subsequent races were all too close together, with VERY little recovery between each & too little base building leading into the next one.

Jan 2007 Houston Half Marathon 59:43

Apr 2007 London Marathon 2:08:24 (3 months later)

Nov 2007 US Olympic Trials 2:09:02 (6 months later)

Apr 2008 London Marathon 2:06:17 (5 months later)

Aug 2008 Bejing Olympics 2:12:33 (4 months later)

4 marathons in 16 months is more than any runner should ever attempt. I'm sure he was riding the wave of celebrity and $$ and liked it, but his coach, Mahon, never should have allowed him to run London '08.

What was obvious was Hall's aerobic base was really high coming off the Half, and that carried through some strong marathons, but Mahon should have changed things up with the distances, forced some rest & down time, and coached his athlete with enough care and foresight to recognize the training/racing factors that promote burnout and fatigue. It takes a long time for the body to repair fried nerves and muscle tissue that has lead to dead legs. Mahon and Hall really messed this one up.

At this point he really crashed and his last mile was like 5:40...

maybe that was his last 1.2?

Anyways, I find this seriously disappointing. I would think that with the advances in the understanding of marathon training the past 20 years you'd have near perfect management of performance and such results as we have seen from folks like Paula and Geb. Have they each had any more than 2 or 3 bad races? Have they dropped out of goal efforts like this?

Maybe this decision was based on better training science and coaching but I sure hope it's the last time for Hall and that he comes back with something "special" soon.

A few thoughts:

1) It's scary to think what would have happened had Hall skipped London '08. What if that 2:06-level performance was at the Olympics? Just like Icarus, maybe he flew too close to the sun.

2) I think the reason Haile and Paula can perform at such a phenomenal level SO consistently is that they have coaches who have figured out their athletes--and they have also had time to honestly evaluate themselves and know what's right for their bodies. Hudson certainly hasn't figured out Hall, and I don't think Hall has figured himself out. If it was simple science, we'd have a formula--but athletes are (surprise!) different.

3) I wonder if Hall wouldn't do better in a group setting. I know he is ultracompetitive, hates running with others, blah blah, but perhaps that's part of his problem. He can't handle it when all of a sudden, he's in a race situation and he's not top dog anymore. All the best athletes in the world train with a team--Ethiopians, Kenyans, Moroccans, Japanese--why are Americans so stubborn? Salazar has it figured out.

fasdfsadfsda wrote:

Hudson certainly hasn't figured out Hall, and I don't think Hall has figured himself out. If it was simple science, we'd have a formula--but athletes are (surprise!) different.

Doesn't matter if Hudson does or doesn't figure out Hall, since Hudson doesn't fucking coach Hall!

3) I wonder if Hall wouldn't do better in a group setting. I know he is ultracompetitive, hates running with others, blah blah, but perhaps that's part of his problem. He can't handle it when all of a sudden, he's in a race situation and he's not top dog anymore. All the best athletes in the world train with a team--Ethiopians, Kenyans, Moroccans, Japanese--why are Americans so stubborn? Salazar has it figured out.

As evidenced by all those great marathoners, both male and female, that Salazar has coached?

Idiot.

Don't know why I said hudson, I meant Mahon. Must've had a "Ritzian slip."

Also, Salazar has coached Kara Goucher, who has not done too bad for herself, and Dan Browne, who also has done quite well. It is clear that he is the best 5k/10k coach in the nation; it is not outlandish to assume he's a pretty darn good marathon coach too.

No need to call me an idiot.

You would think that Salazar would of had some success coaching the marathon, but it has not yet happened. Kara has run 66 minutes for a half marathon and 2:25 marathon. That does not equate. Browne ran his PB of 2:11 8 weeks after joining NOP and never was able to equal it again after 4 years with Alberto. AND THOSE ARE HIS BIGGEST SUCCESSES.

wejo wrote:

Philip Hersh of the Chicago Tribune has just emailed us to report Ryan Hall is officially out of Chicago.

More info at the link below:

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/sports_globetrotting/2010/09/us-star-hall-withdraws-from-chicago-marathon.html

No injury, just after his Philly performance and some poor training he's out.

Hey Wejo, maybe the info from this ad will help Ryan Hall. See whether u agree w the facts it asserts abt American runners' weaknesses.

Maybe Hall needs to watch this himself and see what can be done regarding his stride, rather than merely working on the various energy systems? Please relay this to him if u r able.