Confirmation ... Krum is coached by Luis De Oliveira ... indeed get your facts straight before involving everybody that ever put a shoe in Tucson. In plus Ya all need to get a life so you don't have to spend your time making whatever judgement about somebody you probably never even met once.
Please leave Kip alone. This ain't a murderer's case as some of you haters are celebrating, shame to all haters who get excited with people unhappiness or misery. Watch before U utter anything, think and don't criticize AS IF YOU HAVE NEVER FAILED IN SOMETHING BEFORE or have never made a mistake ... This is not fun. NEVER FORGET THAT GOD IS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN JUDGE.
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Nice nom de plume there, Mr. Justice.
So what's your beef with James Templeton? Why is he a scumbag? Did he get a couple of athletes into a race when you couldn't?
I wouldn't be surprised if I was writing a certain Mr. Volker "I-molest-and-dope-my-female-athletes" Wagner.
I thought it must be you hiding behind a cowardless attack on a chat-board. Much like you hide behind the bushes outside daycare centers...How did I know it must be you? Your poor use of the English language: "There will be a lot of people happy to see the back of him"...Nice one there Colonel Klink.
If you like I can russle up the article in the Daily Nation which accuses an undisclosed agent of personally doping his athletes and share it with our friends on the web. The best part of it is you had the brains to walk up to the very reporter and ask him to his face why he wrote the article about you... As Bugs Bunny would say, "What a Rah-Rah-Rah-Goondeeay"
Can't wait for your response. :)
Excellent post. You're spot on, which is why there has been virtually no comment on what you have said from most of the afrophobic folk who frequent this board.
trackhead wrote:
Zat0pek wrote:World records now have almost a cartoon-like quality to them that are so absurd. 12:57 for the second half of a 10,000? 7:20 for 3,000 meters? 12:39 for 5,000 meters? 3:26 for 1500?
Does anyone REALLY believe that is ONLY talent, training and courage?
Absolutely. Those are not superhuman performances. Go out at 15k pace for 5k and then turn it on to a true 5k effort. These guys are just very very good.
Trackhead - weren't you the guy who, when it was mentioned that Lagat 'only' trained 60 mpw or so, came back with some bullshit about he can get away with it because of your lifetime miles theory?
I am sick to my bones and I don't want to hear or read about running I don't know upto when. From now on I will just foucs on my job and I think my job productivity is going to be up.
But I am really really sorry that my moment of joy of reading about running is stolen on a day light.
Sad!!!!
You lay out your opinions like they are facts. Although well written, there is no real substance to your position.
no-win situation wrote:
Here's the deal: Performances have been ratcheting up for years, with a human genome that doesn't change, not in less than a few thousand years anyway, and training methods that haven't been materially different for 20-30 years now.
Ture, but there are materially more Ethiopians and Kenyans competing than 30 years ago.
By the 1970s for weights/sprints and the late 70s/early 80s for distance runners, it's getting to the point where it's the rare bird who can compete internationally on talent/hard work alone.
Where is your proof of this? This is just an unsubstantiated opinion. Maybe it became rare for Americans to compete internationally since American times slowed.
Then you get to the late 80s or early 90s when EPO is coming on the scene. There are few, maybe virtually no natural runners left able to compete at the very top anymore (probably at best mid-pack or back of top tier), not against that nuclear weapon, not against EPO, even those from East/North Africa with the best genetics.
Another assumption passed off as fact.
Maybe things not yet quite as bad as cycling where everyone agrees usage is 99% and the other 1% finish back of the pack, but starting to get close to that point.
I believe Lance Armstrong is clean. So do many others. This is not a situation where everyone agrees usage is 99%. So everyone thinks there were like 2 clean guys in the Tour this year?
You're knocking on the door of the big leagues. You begin to realize the drug use is endemic. You see no natural runners at the top, or you suspect there are none. You are getting hints that you need to make a choice if you want to make the top level.
This is an exciting story here. I can just see it played out on an afternoon school special. Right after the one that shows how all the little Billys and Johnnys are being offered crack cocaine on street corners on a daily basis in every neighborhood in America. For all this hinting, don't you find it at least a little suspicious that people with morals who are approached don't come forward and reveal what is going on? Essentially you are saying that once runners make it close to the big leagues, none of them are willing to come forward and reveal this big conspiracy? Are they all going to have their kneecaps bashed if they speak?
Your other choice in the matter of course is to refuse the drugs and basically never be able to compete in the top tier.
Says who? Sounds like giving up.
And if it gets as bad as cycling, where the <1% naturals finish WAY in the back by all insider accounts, you wouldn't even get that far. And being that the "system" is an arms race between the testers and beating the tests, it's inevitable things progress from bad to worse just like in cycling unless there is no way to beat the tests.
"by all insider accounts". How does this work? I thought 99% of the people were doping? Do all these insiders you know of come from the honest 1%? A guy who just got smoked by Armstrong...I can't imagine that he would be bitter or have any rationale for the discrepency in performance. Or do the people within the evil 99% open up and laugh and say, "Yeah, I dope. We all do!"
There are all these little pockets and teams of people on the juice, but there doesn't have to be any widespread conspiracy. Because no one will talk about who's doing what publicly, or who they think might be doing what, out of fear.
Fear? Fear of what? People testify against ruthless mafia bosses. I doubt some sketchy pharmacist or manager is more universally intimidating than that.
You say they should simply speak out and name names? Libel, my friend, always remember libel and the lawyers who would sue you out of existence.
Again, here is the paranoia. If it is true, it's not libel. If they are dumb enough to follow your approach and accuse everyone of being on drugs, that might be libel since it simply hasn't been shown to be the case.
And you can't talk to your family unless they are in the sport and already in the know as well.
Maybe if you come from a dysfunctional family.
I would hate to be in that situation. From what I have heard/read, most athletes DON'T want to dope, but they feel they have no choice. These are people no different than you and me, really, other than their talent. Who can say what we would do if we were in their position?
I somehow don't think you have to worry about that. But in case those people come "hinting" at what you need to do, if you could go ahead and forward those names on to use or even just the authorities that would be great.
Personally, I cannot judge those who are using. It is all too easy to empathize when you really stop and really think hard through what they would be faced with.
I can judge. They cheat. It's wrong. They think they are above others and that the rules and doing what's right does not apply to them.
This is a tough time for Lagat and my heart goes out to him, guilty or innocent. He is well liked and a polite young man. It seems like the "B" test should be run before Kenya announces to the world that anything is going on. I hope that Lagat is OK and that he doesn't read these boards.
Here's a thread i just posted on this. The Urine epo test is very expensive ($600) that is why sometimes they use the blood test (only $60) to screen for possible EPO use.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=209448&thread=209448
Having leaved here in the US and his professional future on line, I am pretty sure Legat is reading every single comments made on this board - as we speak.
My message to you is that bad things happen to good people (in spite of who did what) and hey this is not the end of the world. Finishing up your school as well as your suspension, come back and do what you always love to do - run the sub 3 minutes/mile thing.
Life stinks but always there is HOPE!
JAMBO!
ok... i'm confused how SO many people are pointing their fingers at ALL africans based on what one person did or did not do. and wasn't it the AMERICANS who covered up THIRTEEN athletes who had failed drugs tests before the Sydney Olympics. And didn't ONE of them win a Gold medal? plus how many of you have trained in Africa? Or seen the owrk that they put in? The hills that they train on? well if you haven't then shut up about knowing all along that it wasn't about the training. And genetics??? it's not the africans who talk about genetics... it is the europeans and americans who use that as an excuse... [quote]Sick wrote:
Regardless of guilt or innocence...I still wish Bernard luck with whatever the outcome. I know even if he fails that would mean he has made bad decisions. However, he was still one of my favorite runners and i believe he will be able to come back better than ever! with all the negativity out there i just wanted to let him know i hope he is ok throughout all of this...just in case he does read the boards.
I firmly believe that it is possible to run the current world records. Are all of them clean? Of course not. Most of them are probably dirty. But think about this. We can all agree, I hope, that Jim Ryun was clean, at least his senior year of HS and freshman year of college. If a guy like Jim Ryun, a skinny guy from Kansas, can run 22.xx for 200m and 3:55 for the mile outkicking Peter Snell in HS, and then a 1:44 800 and a 3:51 time trial type race with no rabbit as well as an 8:25 two mile at age 19 all on piece of crap dirt tracks with primitive training and shoes, surely someone can run 1:41, 3:43, etc. without cheating with todays technology, the right motivation, the right culture, altitude, etc.
LA Pure Runner and R Canova,
Thank you for plowing thru so much crap on this thread and pointing out the truth.
NOt only are there a lot of haters on this board, but much of it is PURE RACISM. Its sad that it took this to bring it all out, but Im shocked by the amount of it.
First of all Lagats B sample is not in yet. Its only fair to wait for that.
Im not soft on drugs or druggies and if he's found guilty he needs to be severely punished. And also, if he is guilty, Im glad he was busted.
But I also still believe that the large majority of African runners are clean, and its always satisfying to hear from people like Canova and mzungu, about actual training camp situations and FACTS.
Do I think this is the "tip of the iceberg"? No. Its an isolated case.
Another thought for all you haters out there: Do you really think this changes anything for US distance running? Do you really think this brings US runners any closer to matching the times or accomplishments of CLEAN African runners?
Because at the end of the day, from what I gather reading so many of your letters, you are still clutching at straws and desparately trying to convince yourselves that with this news, the Africans can now be beat.
As far as distance running superiority goes, nothings changed. Keep hating.
Oh and if your theories about all the top guys being on drugs are true, what about Lance Armstrong? Funny how his tour victories are gleefully cheered on, when everyone ELSE is suspected of doping.
Mr. Canova said it best to all aspiring runners (wejo included):
" But of course, if every one thinks that for running in 2:12 you must take doping, you create big limits for yourselves. The first effect of doping is that who thinks that without doping is not possible to reach NORMAL PERFORMANCES, already usual in the past, doesn't train with right passion and start his activity already won. Instead talking very much about what you don't know, try to train hard if you want to improve, always remembering that never a donkey can become a racing horse"
Wino wrote:
Yep,
We need a clean league and a drug league. Both pay $$.
Drug league would be no holds barred...any drug goes...run a 12:01 5K and the stadium could watch your heart explode as you cross the line. Super juiced pole vaulters clear 25 feet etc.
The clean league mandates punishment of death if random drug test produces positive result, so you know everyone is racing on talent and hard work.
hell, that's how they do it in body building i dont see how we can't do it in running
Hi Renato,before you write about American running you should visit us ,spend some time and think for a second time about words you are putting down.Well great Cova faild testing too,nandrolon is not legal take that to longo,and go to Grece and test their national team ,if you can...
Clarity wrote:
Also to the jackass that was talking about EPO cycles...EPO only works if it's your your red blood cell count is still high during the competition. It isn't a steriod. You might get a little extra hard training out of it if you take it off season but the effects are minimal unless taken close enough to competition date...
That guy was right. They do "cycle" the drug. They take it during certain cycles of training to increase the intensity of the training. They will then, if they can, take it as close to competition as they can. Lagat was busted because Kenyan officials weren't expecting him to be tested for another two weeks. Simple as that.
BTW, Geb is dirty as hell.
LA/pure running wrote:
I, for one, believe what he says(that the majority[not all] of the top tier of runners are clean).
There's a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. Get it in on the deal now, while you still can. Don't worry. The seller isn't white, he's African, so you know absolutley he can be trusted.
Renato Canova wrote:
I'm a coach, not a cheater. Reading your discussions, I understand that all the world is the same, because are the same discussions that there are in Italy. I want to ask a question : if more than 20 years ago in US there were athletes like Shorter, Rodgers, Salazar, and before Jim Ryun, Wohlhuter, Henry Marsh ; if in Italy there were Panetta, Antibo, Bordin, Gabriella Dorio, Cova, Lambruschini ; if in GBR there were Ovett, Coe, Cram ; if in Portugal there were Lopes and Mamede ; if in Norway there were Ingrid Kristiansen and Grete Waitz,
Blah blah blah. This guy is a fake. Probably a Kenyan trying to save face. Chepchumba was caught. Looks like Lagat was caught with his drawers down. Sorry pal, the tip of the iceberg is now visible to all.