Weird that you would dig up this thread after over a year, but I'm happy to oblige. To balance out the 10 Finals I analyzed for LeBron, here are 4 playoff years for Jordan beyond the 6 years that he won the championship:
1986: Lost 0-3 in the first round to the eventual NBA Champion Boston Celtics: No shame in that. The 1986 Celtics were one of the best teams of all time (they went 67-15 that year), and the Bulls were a lowly 8 seed that would have been one of the worst teams in the league without Jordan. That was the series in which Jordan scored 63 points in Game 2, prompting a stunned Larry Bird to say his opponent was "God disguised as Michael Jordan."
1988: Lost 1-4 to the Bad Boy Pistons in the Eastern Conference semifinals: No shame in that loss either. Pistons went to the Finals that year, losing 4-3 to the Lakers. Jordan played great, but he had no help. His highest-scoring teammate in that series was Sam Vincent, who averaged only 12.8 points/game.
1989: Lost 2-4 to the eventual NBA Champion Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals: Again, no shame. The Pistons were so dominant that year they swept every other series in that year's playoffs, including sweeping the Lakers in the Finals. Jordan was his usual spectacular self but again had no help. His highest scoring teammate in that series was Craig Hodges, at 12.0 points/game. Also noteworthy: that year's playoff run included Jordan hitting the iconic shot to eliminate the Cavs on the road in the deciding game in the first round.
1990: Lost 3-4 to the eventual NBA Champion Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals. As with the previous year, the dominant Pistons lost more games to the Bulls in that series than they lost to any other team in the entire playoffs. Once again, Jordan was great but didn't have help. Just look at the box score from Game 7. Jordan put up a sublime 31 points with 8 rebounds and 9 assists on 48% shooting. His highest scoring teammate was Horace Grant, with 10 points on a woeful 3-17 shooting. Pippen scored only 2 points on 1-10 shooting, Hodges scored 8 points on 3-13 shooting, Cartwright scored 6 points on 3-9 shooting, and BJ Armstrong scored 2 points on 1-8 shooting. That's right, Jordan's 5 best teammates combined for 28 points on a ghastly 11-57 shooting (19%).
After such a disastrous letdown by his teammates when he needed them most, Jordan might have been forgiven if he tried to force his way out of Chicago, the way today's stars often do. But nope, Jordan didn't try to form a super team in LA with Magic Johnson. Instead, he stuck with the Bulls, and he won the first of three consecutive championships with the same core the following year.
Respect! For doing it.
And last night's pacers game had me looking on a running site for basketball topics lol
Disagree with the last paragraph though. In comparison. Jordan left his team went to the conference finals. Where Kyrie left thinking he was the man(same way pippen did although he didn't leave) LeBron went back to the finals with an insane playoff run to go with it. Wasn't there like 2-3 buzzer beaters and significant clutch moments in the 2018 playoff run?
Mostly agree with your analysis of both players but I'd give Bron a pass for 07, 11(Kobe does not get killed for being swept by the same team). LeBron definitely choked but he wasn't going to win anyways to be fair.
If Jordan gets a pass for leaving and the team still almost having the same success then shouldn't Bron get credit for leaving a team and the team turning into a rec league team?
Also of note damn some years Jordan did not have help either. I know scoring volume was down in earlier years but still 12.8 pts or teammates combingin for 30 is nothing unless they are going to 80-90 pts total lol
I just think Jordan is a better winner than LeBron but not a better player. LeBrons consistency can't be ignored but neither can Jordans quality. I also don't think we can ignore the changes they both made to their game after being rookies. If we start comparing eras I'm always going to think the players now , or in the 2010s were better players than 80s 90s players. Sure they might be worse at defense but that's only due to refs and rule changes. Hand checking era is completely different than now defensively.
Thanks! I love discussing basketball. Last night's game was crazy. We could have a whole thread on the history of heartbreaking Knicks playoff losses.
You make good points. That 2011 Mavs team should get more respect. They weren't bums. I also agree that both Jordan and LeBron evolved their games as their careers progressed, and LeBron's consistency (and longevity) is incredible.
To answer your question about the immediate impact on their teams after they left, I think we need to look at the contexts.
When Jordan left the Bulls to play baseball, they retained the rest of their championship core while getting a nice addition in Toni Kukoc, who was so skilled he got a final play called for him in the 1994 playoffs (to Pippen's understandable chagrin). Importantly, key guys like Pippen, Grant, and Armstrong were still in their prime and healthy. Also, I don't think losing in the second round of the playoffs is "almost having the same success" as winning the championship.
When Jordan retired following their sixth championship, the team plummeted to the worst record in the conference with Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman (and Phil Jackson) all gone.
LeBron was really good at recognizing a sinking ship and leaving teams just before the sh!t hit the fan due to aging teammates and other issues:
In his last year with Cleveland, the team was starting an old Shaq and past-his-prime Antawn Jamison. After LeBron left, Shaq was gone and Jamison played in only 56 games. In that first year after LeBron, the team also dealt with injuries to top returning scorer Mo Williams (only 36 games played) and key contributor Anderson Varejao (only 31 games played).
In his last year with Miami, the team had dropped from 66 wins to 54. Injuries had become an increasing concern for Dwyane Wade, and Ray Allen was pushing 40. That team was already on the decline. Then, in the year after LeBron left, they had bad luck with Chris Bosh getting diagnosed with blood clots and needing to miss half the season.
Like the Heat, the Cavs were already on the decline in the last year of LeBron's second stint with them. They only won 50 games and finished 4th in the conference in the regular season. Kyrie Irving was gone, and Kevin Love was dealing with injuries (notice a theme?). When LeBron left Cleveland to go to LA, the team looked very different the following year. None of their next 5 guys after LeBron in minutes played during the 2018 playoffs appeared in more than 22 games with the team in the next season. Kevin Love played only 22 games, JR Smith only 11, George Hill only 13, Kyle Korver only 16, and Jeff Green was on another team.
So, we can see the contexts were very different both in their last years with their teams and what happened to those teams the following year after they left. If you're going to do an honest comparison of the impact of their departures, you have to look at those contexts.
Re: era comparisons, I don't agree that the players in Jordan's era were worse than LeBron's. That 1992 Dream Team was special. Beyond those legends, there was plenty of talent across the league. I think the biggest differences in eras are rules changes that have favored more offense in LeBron's era along with increasing reliance on 3-point shooting.
To close, I like Stephen A. Smith's point that there is nothing wrong with being #2 all-time. Regardless of who you, I, or anyone else think is #1, we need to remember that being #2 is still a lofty place to be. We may not all be able to agree on who's #1, but I think 99% of basketball fans can agree that both Jordan and LeBron are on the Mt. Rushmore.
And last night's pacers game had me looking on a running site for basketball topics lol
Disagree with the last paragraph though. In comparison. Jordan left his team went to the conference finals. Where Kyrie left thinking he was the man(same way pippen did although he didn't leave) LeBron went back to the finals with an insane playoff run to go with it. Wasn't there like 2-3 buzzer beaters and significant clutch moments in the 2018 playoff run?
Mostly agree with your analysis of both players but I'd give Bron a pass for 07, 11(Kobe does not get killed for being swept by the same team). LeBron definitely choked but he wasn't going to win anyways to be fair.
If Jordan gets a pass for leaving and the team still almost having the same success then shouldn't Bron get credit for leaving a team and the team turning into a rec league team?
Also of note damn some years Jordan did not have help either. I know scoring volume was down in earlier years but still 12.8 pts or teammates combingin for 30 is nothing unless they are going to 80-90 pts total lol
I just think Jordan is a better winner than LeBron but not a better player. LeBrons consistency can't be ignored but neither can Jordans quality. I also don't think we can ignore the changes they both made to their game after being rookies. If we start comparing eras I'm always going to think the players now , or in the 2010s were better players than 80s 90s players. Sure they might be worse at defense but that's only due to refs and rule changes. Hand checking era is completely different than now defensively.
Thanks! I love discussing basketball. Last night's game was crazy. We could have a whole thread on the history of heartbreaking Knicks playoff losses.
You make good points. That 2011 Mavs team should get more respect. They weren't bums. I also agree that both Jordan and LeBron evolved their games as their careers progressed, and LeBron's consistency (and longevity) is incredible.
To answer your question about the immediate impact on their teams after they left, I think we need to look at the contexts.
When Jordan left the Bulls to play baseball, they retained the rest of their championship core while getting a nice addition in Toni Kukoc, who was so skilled he got a final play called for him in the 1994 playoffs (to Pippen's understandable chagrin). Importantly, key guys like Pippen, Grant, and Armstrong were still in their prime and healthy. Also, I don't think losing in the second round of the playoffs is "almost having the same success" as winning the championship.
When Jordan retired following their sixth championship, the team plummeted to the worst record in the conference with Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman (and Phil Jackson) all gone.
LeBron was really good at recognizing a sinking ship and leaving teams just before the sh!t hit the fan due to aging teammates and other issues:
In his last year with Cleveland, the team was starting an old Shaq and past-his-prime Antawn Jamison. After LeBron left, Shaq was gone and Jamison played in only 56 games. In that first year after LeBron, the team also dealt with injuries to top returning scorer Mo Williams (only 36 games played) and key contributor Anderson Varejao (only 31 games played).
In his last year with Miami, the team had dropped from 66 wins to 54. Injuries had become an increasing concern for Dwyane Wade, and Ray Allen was pushing 40. That team was already on the decline. Then, in the year after LeBron left, they had bad luck with Chris Bosh getting diagnosed with blood clots and needing to miss half the season.
Like the Heat, the Cavs were already on the decline in the last year of LeBron's second stint with them. They only won 50 games and finished 4th in the conference in the regular season. Kyrie Irving was gone, and Kevin Love was dealing with injuries (notice a theme?). When LeBron left Cleveland to go to LA, the team looked very different the following year. None of their next 5 guys after LeBron in minutes played during the 2018 playoffs appeared in more than 22 games with the team in the next season. Kevin Love played only 22 games, JR Smith only 11, George Hill only 13, Kyle Korver only 16, and Jeff Green was on another team.
So, we can see the contexts were very different both in their last years with their teams and what happened to those teams the following year after they left. If you're going to do an honest comparison of the impact of their departures, you have to look at those contexts.
Re: era comparisons, I don't agree that the players in Jordan's era were worse than LeBron's. That 1992 Dream Team was special. Beyond those legends, there was plenty of talent across the league. I think the biggest differences in eras are rules changes that have favored more offense in LeBron's era along with increasing reliance on 3-point shooting.
To close, I like Stephen A. Smith's point that there is nothing wrong with being #2 all-time. Regardless of who you, I, or anyone else think is #1, we need to remember that being #2 is still a lofty place to be. We may not all be able to agree on who's #1, but I think 99% of basketball fans can agree that both Jordan and LeBron are on the Mt. Rushmore.
Did you write all that? Props to you if you did. I enjoy reading your posts.
Not even close. He simply carries the ball, palms it and walks right to the basket. Is he good? Of course, but nowhere near where his "cheating" stats show. Jerry West dribbled the ball. Nate Archibald and Rick Berry dribbled the ball. LeBron doesn't make great moves. He holds the ball in the air and pushes it in the direction he wants to go. He's a cheater.
Jabbar would have reached 40k if he had joined the NBA straight out of HS
He would have reached 50k if he had played in a league without hand-checking on defense and where almost no fundamental rules of the game are called by officials anymore (illegal/moving screens, traveling, carrying the ball etc). Plus those 3 extra seasons you mentioned where he played college ball? Lebron would not even be close to Kareem and honestly he might have a hard time catching Malone too.
That (scoring) is one metric that is simply impossible to compare head to head across eras without an sizable lens of context applied to it.
This post was edited 48 seconds after it was posted.
Jabbar would have reached 40k if he had joined the NBA straight out of HS
He would have reached 50k if he had played in a league without hand-checking on defense and where almost no fundamental rules of the game are called by officials anymore (illegal/moving screens, traveling, carrying the ball etc). Plus those 3 extra seasons you mentioned where he played college ball? Lebron would not even be close to Kareem and honestly he might have a hard time catching Malone too.
That (scoring) is one metric that is simply impossible to compare head to head across eras without an sizable lens of context applied to it.
Team points per game were essentially the same in Kareem’s era compared to LeBron’s era. Slightly higher in fact. Yet you claim he would’ve had 33% more points.
Thank you! Yes, I wrote it after spending way too much time researching NBA Reference to jog my memory on the details.
NBA reference your go-to over land of basketball? Just asking
Yeah, I love NBA (and MLB and NFL) Reference's layout, advanced stats, analytical tools, and sorting features. I'd never heard of Land of Basketball until seeing your comment. I just took a glance now. Looks like a great source of info too!