deena needed help

Facts

1. Dita set a national record at Chicag yesterday and was paced for 20 miles.

2. Colleen Deruck set a national masters record yesterday and was paced for EVERY step of the race by Kim Gilliard.

Where is the outrage?

On the scene wrote:

The only words that Clint shared with Deena was whether or not a MALE was getting close so that she would be more careful of not getting clipped.

From Jim Ferstle's article on Deena's race:

"At 20 miles, she asked Clint Verran, one of the race's escorts for the top female racers, if anyone was behind her. Verran looked back and told Kastor he couldn't see any other women in sight."

Deena apparently has a different recollection of her conversations with Verran than you do.

Saw this thread about Deena on Joggersworld. Here's my favorite line:

here's what the adolescents over one letsrun.com think:

http://forums.runnersworld.com/thread.jspa?threadID=300921&tstart=15

Ok this is what i posted.

Now i am very much aware that Korir was paid , and was a benifit to Tergats world record attempt.

You are mearly addressing what is similar and trying to tell me they are the same...not the case.

Tergat understude that should the pacers feel the disire to finish the race(this was not required), they could pose a very REAL threat to his victory(e.a. he had been beaten by a pacer who choose to finish in chicago).

IN FACT, Tergat made sure extra bottles were placed on the course should his pacers choose to finish, showing his exraordinary level of sportsmanship.

THIS is the differance Clint posed NO threat to Deena\'s victory, the same could often be said of radcliffe when she uses male pacers..

Had Tergat faultered in the last two miles....he most certainly would not have won the race...that is a very real difference.

Also tergat WOULD never have asked Korir how far back the nearest compititor was....as Korir was the nearest compititor, AND to ask such a question would have shown weakness...

"Webb ran his HS 3:53 against elite runners so should this not count as a high school time since he had an advantage of running with the "big boys" as Deena did? "

Actually, I do think that high school records set in major events are kind of shady. Personally I think in order to be considered a record it should come in an all high school meet. Let the other races be junior age group records.

That's not the rule though so the records stand. But the rules read differently for the pacing job that Verran did and I think Deena got by with one.

Just my opinion and not likely to change the situation.

ummm wait a sec wrote:

You all do realize that all marathon world records and for that matter ditance track world records in at least the past 5 years have had pacesetters. How would this be any different? She had a pacesetter for her run. So do the men racing the marathon. Just because it was a guy shouldn't make a difference.

It makes a difference because a guy is not a woman.

Also take a look at the pictures of the race.

Deena's pacers were BLOCKING Dita from running with her.

I have seen a number of photos where Verran and others were muscles themselves between Deena and in front of Dita, and not allowing Dita to get close to her. Perhaps this is the primary reason why Dita lost ground in the first place. After Deena's pacers dropped off, then Dita was closing very quickly.

Also it is noted that, though some say Deena's pacers didn't help her, but note her slowest mile was the one where she had the least pacing from them and Verran had finally dropped off. By that time she had a constant shove to the finish, and only the last bit to run.

And I'm incredulous that anyone would say pacing does not help!!! It sure does! It helps quite a bit when you're fresh, and far more when you're trying to hang on at the end of a race.

Can you link to some of these photos?

Per Capita Income 2004

#2 USA $40,100

#99 Romania $7,700

Deena needed the prize money more than Dita. Dita can take her $65,000 first loser prize back across the ocean to her third world country and pave the roads, bring in electricity, open a hospital, be the first to own an automobile, put in the first septic system, surf 1000 channels on her new satelite tv, find homes for all the babies in the orphanage, irrigate the fields, organize the first local elections, open a strip mall, hold the first flu shot clinic, open a chinese buffet, develop land for low income trailer living, and erect a statue in her honor for all to worship in her quaint little farming village.

.....oh, and they might build her a track to run on.

2 records with pacing wrote:

Facts

1. Dita set a national record at Chicag yesterday and was paced for 20 miles.

2. Colleen Deruck set a national masters record yesterday and was paced for EVERY step of the race by Kim Gilliard.

Where is the outrage?

I was there and spectated at 5 or 6 points in the race. It was more windy out there than is being reported. Every time I saw Deena she was in front of or next to her two escorts and personally hired pacer. (Bad form, but not technically against the rules.)

Dita likewise was in front of her escort every time I saw her.

Chiba was by herself the whole way.

Colleen was in a group the first couple of times I saw her and behind her personal pacer the last couple of times (30K and 40K).

In my huble opinion, a male pacer breaking the wind for a female athlete constitutes an unfair advantage if pace setters are not allowed/provided for everyone. Again, in my opinion, the female athletes that ran behind pacers (whether provided by the race or not) had a clear advantage over those that didn't. This was especially true over the final miles where the runners were fighting a head wind.

Why no outrage? There is little to be done. Protests needed to be filed within 1 hour of the finish. Even if Dita wanted to protest, why would she? You would basically be accusing Chicago of putting on a crooked race since the escorts were supplied by Chicago. Not the best career move to alienate one of the best marathons in the world. Better to just suck it up. It would also come across as extremely sour grapes.

It's true that every woman out there still had to run the race, but if you believe that the escorts/pacers didn't provide some small advantage please continue burying your head in the sand.

Would it have changed the result, who knows, but Deena only won by 5 seconds and Colleen got forth by only 20.

It certainly would be nice not to have to have this debate.

The fault lies with a very vague rule that the USATF has no intention of enforcing. Either eliminate the rule and have and anything goes atmosphere, or clarify and enforce the rule with random referees/spotters, or start the women early. This in-between, self-policed method just isn't working. And it's taking away from some otherwise brilliant performances.

Well put. Unfortunately, several big marathons -- in particular, Chicago, London, and Berlin -- have gotten into this competition of producing the fastest loop marathon times for women, and have twisted the hell out of rules and reasonable racing standards to one-up the competition. Most of the time, it's not a big deal to anyone except curmudgeons like me, because the races aren't close. In this case, however, the race was very close, and we were deprived of a good, honest, one-on-one fight to the finish by this gamesmanship with pacers, escorts, human windbreaks, advisers, and so on. Verran and Kastor both stepped over the line, I think, but the line keeps getting pushed further out there.

As for DeReuck and others, I didn't see them, but I don't doubt that they also were materially assisted by complicitors during the race.

Status Quo wrote:

It's true that every woman out there still had to run the race, but if you believe that the escorts/pacers didn't provide some small advantage please continue burying your head in the sand.

It certainly would be nice not to have to have this debate.

The fault lies with a very vague rule that the USATF has no intention of enforcing. Either eliminate the rule and have and anything goes atmosphere, or clarify and enforce the rule with random referees/spotters, or start the women early. This in-between, self-policed method just isn't working. And it's taking away from some otherwise brilliant performances.

Well said. Recall a couple years ago when Paula Radcliffe had IAAF ok'd male pacers lining up w/her in an all-women's start separate from the men in the London Marathon. It received IAAF approval because the men would be scored among the men...even though they wouldn't be competing w/them. Geesh. What the heck...let's have men pacing women on the track...and just inserting their times into the men's races. Things is weird.

I'll say it again, I'm opposed to any form of extra help & I know it when I see it. I say, line up, take off w/the gun and fend for yourself MINUS EXTRA HELP.

Deena should have only relied on marion jones. i am very upset and feel that with 2 miles to go the race would have been different. kudos to all the folks who managed the porta jons. they did not smell this year like last.Constatina deserved the big V. Ole Clinty needs to calm down and grab a fruit roll up

briar rabbit wrote:

so would she have hung on if she wasn't pulled by the Hanson's? i don't think so.

scotth wrote:

Recall a couple years ago when Paula Radcliffe had IAAF ok'd male pacers lining up w/her in an all-women's start separate from the men in the London Marathon.

Yes, and I've cheered Paula's competitors, and celebrated every one of Paula's losses, ever since.

dunes runner wrote:

I have seen a number of photos where Verran and others were muscles themselves between Deena and in front of Dita, and not allowing Dita to get close to her. Perhaps this is the primary reason why Dita lost ground in the first place. After Deena's pacers dropped off, then Dita was closing very quickly.

HUH? What have you been smoking? Did you watch any VIDEO? Did you do to the CBS 2 web site and look at the video that was available? That statement is total bulls***. I watched it live (or as live as the internet feed allowed) and Dita was most certainly allowed to get close to Deena. They were running side by side for a LONG TIME. There were a couple times Dita made a move and Deena covered it, so that "muscles themselves between Deena and in front of Dita" is a load of crap.

If you would like to see a terrific all-women's professional marathon, featuring a deep international field, and only female pacemakers pacing the women you only have to wait until Nov. 6:

Staten Island wrote:

If you would like to see a terrific all-women's professional marathon, featuring a deep international field, and only female pacemakers pacing the women you only have to wait until Nov. 6:

Where is that going to be? The media will be covering that dungfest New York has every year. Will there be a webcast of this one?

oldguy wrote:

Yes, and I've cheered Paula's competitors, and celebrated every one of Paula's losses, ever since.

oldguy, c'mon now...there've been plenty of other women (and men) that've been paced to good efforts besides Paula.

What needs saying...Deena didn't need help. Nobody needs help and nobody should get it.

I watched it live on the BBC coverage he ran on the course behind Alemu who passed Paula before she stopped. He'd earlier been running along on the sidewalk with the flag as you say. I was surprised to see it and was expecting to hear more about it but I guess the later drama dominated everything. Check out a copy of the video if you can, just before Alemu passes Paula.