50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

KenM...Nice to have you here. Man, that's some solid training. Have you gotten any racing in this year?

My week was ok. 58 miles with a 10K race. A couple decent days. Did a relaxed 11 on Monday at 6:56/mile; Wed was a progressive 10 in 64:40. Went 655,651,647,639,632,625,618,610,605,600.

Saturdays race wasn't as fast as I had hoped for. Thought I was ready to run in the low 34's. Started out just as I wanted running the first 3 in 536,534,533. Then we hit this pretty big overpass that kind of kicked my butt. Hit it again on the way back around 5 miles. That coupled with the winding, rolling paved bike path made for a pretty sucky last 3 miles in 545,556,543. Lead the first 4 miles but some young punk killed me the last 2 miles. Ended up 2nd in 35:23.

Half Marathon in 2 weeks. Looking for a solid training week this week.

All the Best,

Dave

Thanks Alan. That is the type of input I was looking for. Gives me something to think about. My original thought was the days off would compensate for the quality workouts, but you have me rethinking that plan.

Racerdb wrote:

... some young punk killed me the last 2 miles. ...

Hah, isn't "young punk" redundant? I vividly recall getting chewed out on the public bus some 35 years ago: "What are you staring at, punk?"

ScottDye,

As Allen said, we are all different, I like your program, give it a go.

Racerdb,

No race planned yet, but I'm looking at options. I had signed up for the Master's Indoor Nationals last March since it was just down the road in Bloomington but I injured my hip going so fast in lane 1 on the flat indoor track I train on. I now run indoors in lane 6 which is marked all the way up to 5k.

I also was going to do our summer all-comers series here as training, warmed-up for the first race, did 1 stride and the tendon I injured acted up. That was in June. So no races at all yet. Last race I did was a Race for the Cure in 2005 off of basketball play only. Ran a 17:10 feeling easy ..... for 1 /1/2 miles! Then the lactic acid started building up! After the race I felt like I had run a marathon, not kidding, I was sore in my tendons, muscles, and joints for a week. Splits were 5:40, 5:30, 5:20 or so. Shows how cardiovascular wise I was ok, and how genetics help, but the muscle actions are so different between the two sports.

I've gone long periods without racing before. I had mono in 1988, no running for most of the year. Started 1989 with chicken pox in Jan., then had 12 weeks to train for the Pittsburgh Marathon from zero. I toed the line with no races beforehand. I figure I got in shape about mile 10 of the race!

Thanks WOC. It is a new concept to me. I generally have run my best with higher mileage than this and few days off. Some of my best training runs were after reasonably hard days with no breaks. My best Half-Marathon since I got to 60 was run on a Saturday after having run a 20 miler the previous Sunday. I am just concerned that I need consistent running to run my best but want to give this a try and see how it works.

32 miles for me last week. I ran the first 4 days of the week and then had travel with no running the last 3 days.

I also am 62. I ran my last half marathon two years ago and ran just under 1:28 on a very flat, fast course. I was training about 55-60 mpw with one hard workout day a week and a moderately hard Sunday progressive run of 12 miles. The older I get, the more I move to a little more mileage and a little less intensity for my training plans. Having said that, I like the look of your training plan Scott. At our age, the key question always is how does your running feel off your planned training regimen? If it feels like your pace and endurance are improving with the plan then it's the right plan. In the abstract I would say that some additional easy recovery mileage might help, but if things are going well, then stay with what you are doing. Good luck and let us know how it comes out.

Got blood test results today, yep, RBC's had come up some from 4.48 early Aug to 4.87. I went back and checked old USOTC data from mid 80's plus blood work prior to chemotherapy, I was always above 5. My low is 4.2 near the end of chemo in July of 2010. Hemoglobin is lower from my past, used to be at 16 consistently, now mid & upper 14's. Ferritin was good at 73.

Feeling good so I'll take an upswing, hope it continues upwards too.

I've been following Cancer Guy's thread and corresponding with him. He just had some tough news. He's been a blessing and inspiration to me in a number of ways. He's quite a giving person and I appreciate his honesty. My prayers, good thoughts and wishes go out to him and his family.

WOC , I remember reading a book on training that mentioned you building a treadmill that went faster than 5 minute per mile pace. Thought that was pretty cool.

Found a site with lots of running photos from the 70's

http://runningentertainment.com/runningshots27.html

Wish I could do that kind of quality for me nothing beats the feeling of running fast.

ScottDye wrote:

Thanks WOC. It is a new concept to me. I generally have run my best with higher mileage than this and few days off. Some of my best training runs were after reasonably hard days with no breaks. My best Half-Marathon since I got to 60 was run on a Saturday after having run a 20 miler the previous Sunday. I am just concerned that I need consistent running to run my best but want to give this a try and see how it works.

Scott I'm curious as to why you are planning on running the 400s at mile pace.

The sort of sessions I would prefer to do if doing two "intensity" days per week would be.

8-12 x 800m -1000m @15k pace with short recoveries of 1-2 mins. or a progression run of 5k easy, 5k marathon pace, 3k half marathon pace, 2k 10k pace.

The other day, 3-4k "threshold" run then into 6-8 x 400m @5k pace with a quick 200m "float" recovery.

The 800-1000m reps of short recovery are pretty specific to half mar. racing as is the progression running. Building the strength at race pace without being as demanding as doing high volume work at 10k pace.

The 400s are the classic Clohessy/Wardlaw session used by DeCastella (61.?), Moneghetti (60.06), Wilson (60.02), Norwood (61>?), Creighton(61.?)etc. The key in this session is the sustained running at high efforts. Running some threshold work then hitting the 400s at 5k pace but keeping the 200 rec. at a good pace so it becomes 12 laps at quite a quick overall pace.

[quote]Charlie wrote:

Found a site with lots of running photos from the 70's

http://runningentertainment.com/runningshots27.html

Charlie, that photo site is such a great walk down memory lane for us 70s/80s guys...love it!

MF

mo'pak wrote:

The sort of sessions I would prefer to do if doing two "intensity" days per week would be.

Scott, I also think your program could work, but the biggest danger with three "intensity" days per week is peaking too soon. IMHO, a long run of 40% of weekly mileage is "intense", no matter how slow the pace. As for recovery, we tend to think that if we can do the next workout, then we must have been "recovered". That's not the whole story, some systems can be on the upswing while others are on the downswing. Going by feel alone could be deceptive if you are peaking. Resting HR is a good measure of over-training and overall stress. I recommend tracking your resting HR daily and backing off aggressively if it shoots up.

Another danger is having a good race followed by a long cycle of injury. This is a frequent occurrence for those featured Masters runners in Running Times--it's the next season that gets them. The obvious exceptions are the ones who have been doing the same training for a decade.

Thanks to all for the comments, I have alot to think about as I go forward. To specifically answer a couple of questions, mo'pak asked why the 400's at mile race pace. My thinking on this is to include a day of speed work to maintain what speed I have for 5k's, which I prefer to run. Interestingly enough, your progression run pretty much is how I currently will run a 10 miler. It takes me 5k to just start getting warmed up, so it is very easy, the next 5k is probably at marathon pace since I am a very slow marathon runner, next 5k probably a little slower than 1/2 marathon pace, but increasing from the prior 5k, and I generally finish strong in the last mile to 1.5.

Alan, I am not sure why you are refering to the three intensity days per week. The long run is run very easy and the middle distance at an easy to moderate pace picking it up through out, but nothing crazy. That only leaves the mile repeats and the 400s for intensity. (And if you saw the mile repeats you might not even consider them intense). I agree, buy all standards that the 16 mile run on a week with 40 -43 miles seems excessive by all published commentators, but I am a believer in the long-run and think 16 is the right amount to race a 1/2 marathon. It fits around that 2hour 15 minute max where some believe you don't get much benefit from running any further. Also, I monitor my heart rate during all runs and workouts to determine if I might need adjustments and an extra easy day.

In regards to peaking, the current mileage is only about 30 with the miles and long run to be increased. I think,(but I could be wrong) that as long as I continue to add to this mileage and increase the number of mile repeats, I won't peak. I hope to plan a peak by backing off for about two weeks, by cutting the workout to about 75% but increasing the pace a little.

It is a experiment for sure, and I will try to post progress, disappointments and success, if any as I go.

well week 12 of 12 hit 43 mile this week,so now this is the most i have done since 1992 wow.These 12 weeks have been an eye opener for me the last time i ran serious it was just open the door 5:20 mile no worrys,hell now i set of easy it stops that way.The 12 weeks just gone i have called that preparation it was just to get me running again,get my mind set right.A way back slowly and easy i had 2 targets run every day/cover 40 mile a week this i did.My next target is to hit 55 mile a week (my age)and just make it a little more like training.So i have penciled in a 12-16 week block base.Within this i will run a 21 day cycle were i will increase the distance of my harder efforts,2 days a week i will run @80-87% ( zone 3) effort for a set time.I will also bring in 10 x 150 mtrs strides just to bring the legs through a little faster.To calculate my zones i will run a time trial this thurs ie week 13 this is my rest week only running 3 mile a day,from this i hope i will get my ave h/rate,max h/rate,my resting h/rate is now 51 (41 at my peak running years)Its going to be fun to see what a 20 year gap will bring i just hope that i can be still up there in my age group.Will post up my time trial time tomorrow

Running

Another 2 weeks since last training post.

Total is 19 weeks back running leaving 33 more weeks before increasing daily time limit of 20 minutes. Lately I have really wanted to increase the daily running time but I am gonna try and hold out.

Ran Mt Tabor all this week. The run is about 15 minutes uphill with 5 minutes of flat to downhill.Just a wonderful place to run in Portland. Also walked for an hour after each run barefoot. Feet are getting strong and the soles are getting tough.

Did the old Glendoveer golf course loop hard in 14:15 (6:38 per mile)that is down from 15 flat which is down from 16:30.

Also did 6 laps on a track about the same effort in 10 flat 6:40 pace so it looks pretty consistent.

Weight/Diet

Feeling high energy lost another 2 pounds the last 2 weeks which puts me at 148 with 18 pounds to go. The low carb diet really works for me. Decided to dust off my old blood glucose meter. Not diabetic but it does run in my family on both sides. I do feel like I have insulin resistance hence the low carb diet. Anyhow I dug up my last fasting blood glucose reading 104 a bit on the high side from 6 months ago. Checked 3 days in a row 81,79,77. Also rechecked on the first day eight hours later still fasting and got a 77. So very pleased with these numbers.

Racing keeps entering my mind. Once I finish a year of 20 minutes a day (32 more weeks) and the weight is good I just might set some higher limits.

ScottDye wrote:

... The long run is run very easy ...

Okay we will have to disagree about whether the long run should be considered easy or hard. Your plan could work, experiment of one. Good skill, do keep us posted.

Well i did it my 2 mile t/trial hell it was hard,the first 150mtrs felt great then it was just plain hard work.the last 3 or 4 min my legs felt dead, big lumps of lead !!!

The course was 2 mile slightly uphill with a gain of 267ft,is that alot? it felt it

(I have used feet it sounds more then meters only 81mtrs) I ran 14 mins 18 sec, Ave h/rate 151. Max out @ 163 just could not push any more.I dont think i will do that again well lest not for another 16 weeks.Hope i have not bored you all. Keep running.

Don't know what your ultimate goal is Alf, but I congratualate anyone who can run a 2 mile time trial. The effort to do that alone seems incredible. From my rough calculations that was about a 2.5% grade which would add approximatley 10% to this 2 mile, makeing your workout a 13 flat or slightly under.

alf tupper wrote:

Well i did it my 2 mile t/trial hell it was hard,the first 150mtrs felt great then it was just plain hard work.the last 3 or 4 min my legs felt dead, big lumps of lead !!!

The course was 2 mile slightly uphill with a gain of 267ft,is that alot? it felt it

(I have used feet it sounds more then meters only 81mtrs) I ran 14 mins 18 sec, Ave h/rate 151. Max out @ 163 just could not push any more.I dont think i will do that again well lest not for another 16 weeks.Hope i have not bored you all. Keep running.

Looks like good progress considering the 20 year break. IMHO your fitness will take a bit longer than you were thinking but in the end you will exceed your expectations.

Charlie wrote:

alf tupper wrote:

Well i did it my 2 mile t/trial hell it was hard,the first 150mtrs felt great then it was just plain hard work.the last 3 or 4 min my legs felt dead, big lumps of lead !!!

The course was 2 mile slightly uphill with a gain of 267ft,is that alot? it felt it

(I have used feet it sounds more then meters only 81mtrs) I ran 14 mins 18 sec, Ave h/rate 151. Max out @ 163 just could not push any more.I dont think i will do that again well lest not for another 16 weeks.Hope i have not bored you all. Keep running.

Looks like good progress considering the 20 year break. IMHO your fitness will take a bit longer than you were thinking but in the end you will exceed your expectations.

My usual calculation (just based on 1000s of mtn runs,not on any science) for mountain races is 10m in elev. gain = about 50m in "distance". So your 81m = 400m "extra distance" so I'd calculate closer to 12.30-40 on a flat course.

Alf, how is your weight these days in comparison to your 2.11 days?