50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Well, as promised, I'll post an update. I'm only 46, but I'll round up for this thread:-) In short, it was a roller coaster week. The 15 race was on Monday, and I ran most of it with severe pain in my right PF. I had the epiphany the the orthotic was too blame - I had been sensing some upward pressure. I ran a couple of easy on Tues, and then ran with the 6:00 group at the track workout on Weds. It was a little sore, but it felt okay after about 3 miles total, and I did the full workout (a ladder). I had taken the orthitics out of my shoes. Bad idea - Thursday not only had the PF flared back up, but my upper calf/gastrocnemius was also hurting.

So my analysis is that running most of the race, plus the track workout, with limited motion in my right foot, caused my calf muscle to compensate, and that was compounded by removing the orthotics. That seems to gibe with what MikeF posted a few days ago. I spent the next few days kneading my calf, and stretching that area as well as my arches. Fast forward to today, and I seem to be on the road recovery. I was able to run 40 mins painfree, albeit on the treadmill so that I could focus on maintaining good form - including pushing off while getting a full range of motion. Fingers crossed!

With starting all over again after a 20 year break i have taken a lydiard look at my approch back into it.With my aim to build a base of miles not fast but with the hope of putting in some kind of strength there. I do feel that if you run for 30/40 years you already have a good background thus you can zone in on speed, or the kind of training to that event and not worry to much about your endurance being detracted from.but in my case the proof will be in the pudding only time will tell?

I don't know if there is a conventional wisdom, and I certainly don't think that speed trumps volume. I think we all try things and find what allows us to keep running, and what things drive us over the edge. Seems to be different for different people. PF has been a common theme here of late, but some of us it's never been a problem. For me, it's been the other PF....namely pyriformis syndrome that has given me fits now for the past couple years. It flares up when I run too hard or too far...so pick your poison.

I'm with you on this point, and as you say, you don't realize that you've crossed some critical point until days after you've done it. Probably that's the most frustrating thing. I've slowly come to the conclusion that I'm just weak and running too much at the margins of my physical ability (should probably hit the weights). I like Rtype's characterization that we run in a "sub-chronic" state; some particular ailment is always at the doorstep. The frequency and types of training we do can either keep those niggles at a tolerable level (or maybe abate them?) or drive us over the edge. It's a fine line.

I agree that this works for many, especially for marathon training, where the intense speed work's value mostly shows up as improved running economy. If your goal is marathons and you are already an efficient runner, you can probably get by with little interval-type training. There are a lot of successful masters long-distance runners that do almost nothing but easy runs and progression runs. I think this is about all Dave (racerdb) did all summer.

To that end, Awesome race, Dave; what a finish! Your consistency has been remarkable; can't imagine what a little speed-work will do for you. Good luck on your 10K this weekend.

Thanks MF for that detailed protocol for addressing PF. And thanks nyloco for reporting to us on your experiment with switching up orthotics. These overuse injuries, like PF, have long-term causes, and thus require long-term solutions. I hope that you can keep us abreast of any further insights that you have as you work through this.

Rtype, I totally agree that getting back to why we enjoy running is more important than any other single thing that we can be doing....I wish that I had more trails within an easy jog from my house....the Arboretum is getting a little stale. Maybe we could all move to Australia and train with mo'pak. :-)

Lately, I've not had the time or inclination to look at many LetsRun threads beyond our own. I'll read through the Masters Weekend R'n'R thread, and maybe some of the threads commenting on the elite races, but I've been glossing over most other threads. It was brought to my attention of a recent relevant thread that maybe is worth reading through:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4781745

A lot of good stuff in there.

Cheers!

Thanks interesting but this is treating the damage.

Looking for the root of evil

http://barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/4BiomechanicsofFootStrike.html

Mon -2 hr relaxed hilly trail and xc run.

Tue -1 hr 10m solid kyak session on the lake and local waterways.

Wed -1 hr fairly brisk running on paths, trails.

Thu -2 hr mtn bike ride on steep trails.

Fri -1 hr 5m kyak.

Sat -2 hr mtn bike on rolling trails.

Sun -2 hr 10m run on steep trails (500m elev. gain)

A good fun week. Tuesday's kyak inc working quite a distance up our creek from the lake before running a ground. The return across the lake was into a howling gale and big chop so worked the but off the last 20 mins.

Saturday's ride was fun. I'd stayed up in Rochester (70k from home) as my wife stays up there often with her work. Had the morning free as I was working a pm shift. Drove 20k toward work then parked the car and picked up a trail I'd spotted the previous week. It ran for more than 20 k along a ridge line, quite fast riding at times as it mostly farm access tracks. Unfortunately I had to turn back just when it started to look really interesting as it followed a cliff line. Marked it into the little black book.

Sunday's run was done up the back in the National Park. The DSE are planning a fuel reduction burn up there before summer so they have been in clearing a lot of my usual running/riding trails. Some of my usually rocky single track is now quite wide and smooth allowing me to bowl along quite a bit quicker in places.

Thanks for bumping the thread mo'pak. Sounds like you had another adventuresome week....and no races for a change!

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Week 67

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Greetings grandmasters. Not much to report here in the mid-south. It was supposed to be a down week, but I ran too much, logging just shy of 47 miles for the week. A lot of it was at an easy pace and was on grass/trail, so maybe that counts as something of a recovery week. Here's how my log reads:

Sun: 0 miles (but I did walk 4, mostly on grass/trail in my Merrell's)

Mon: 8 easy, with 5.4 on grass

Tue: 5 easy, with 3 on grass

Wed: 8.8 w/ 4x2lap (2:37 avg), 4x1lap (69-1/2 avg), 1lap recovery (about 2 min) between reps and 5 minutes between 2's and 1's

Thur: 8.2 easy, with 5.1 on grass/trail...and 1.3 in my Merrell's.

Fri: 5.6 easy

Sat: 11.3 easy, with 8 on grass/trail

Notes:

1) I don't know if I've ever logged more than 20 miles in a week on grass (at least not since HS XC).

2) Remember that the track we run on is 25m short of a 400, so you have to add about 10s for the 2-lappers to compare to 800m reps, and about 4-1/2 s to compare the 1-lappers to 400m. These were hard for me; it was good to have a faster guy to run them with.

3) No, I haven't completely bitten on the minimal movement, but I do want to work on strengthening my calves and feet. The calves were a little sore Friday and Saturday after that short stint of running up on my forefeet Thursday; it's still very awkward for me.

4) I've been doing stretches and massages to work on the pyriformis region, but I'm still getting occasional random shooting pain up and down the right leg, same as what caused the problems in the race last Saturday, but it's getting less frequent. Obviously, it's not persistent, or I wouldn't be running so much on it. It only started to bother me by the end of Wednesday's workout and again by the end of Saturday's long run. Some good post workout stretching eased the discomfort. This one seems to be most effective:

http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/images/piriformis.stretch.gif

. I’m also using the pyriformis stretch shown in the Oct. issue of Running Times, and I also massage it with a fairly hard ball to put pressure right on the muscle. One thing I've noticed is that I don't have as much range of motion in my right leg as my left. When I try to do this:

http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/images/lunge.gif

, I can't bring my right knee all the way to my chest, but I can my left. So this is yet something else to work on (the list keeps growing, haha), along with the hip strengthening (something that I still just never can get into a groove of doing consistently and progressively.)

5) I know I make it sounds like I’m a mess, but seriously, these are fairly minor niggles (of the sub-chronic variety, as rtype coined it) compared to what others have been dealing with. As I indicated last week, they mostly are cropping up at the end of longer runs and hard runs. It’s a situation where I’m coping, but I’d rather be thriving.

That's about all I've got. Hope everyone is doing well, whatever stage you're at; any late-summer/early-fall racing to report?

As always, I encourage those that have been just reading to join the discussion. There are no minimum requirements other than a willingness to share your experiences and/or interests in training and racing past the half-century mark.

Post 'em up!

Decided to move my posts over here since this is a continuous thread.

Best week of the year, felt so good that I stopped by my primary care doc to get a blood draw to see if my red blood cells have come up into the normal range (they were at 4.4 in early August). I'll post the counts when I get them Mon or Tues.

Mon AM 2 mile warm-up, 4x100m 15.5-14.5, 2x200 30.5, 29.7

9/10 4x800 with full recovery, 2:17.6, 2:17.7, 2:15.0, 2:13.79 (67.36, 66.43)

2x200 with full recovery, 28.2, 28.1 800's fine - felt strong, 200's fatigued - hoped for one 27.

2 mile cool-down

PM PT1, light stretching

Tue AM 5+ mile run, last two with elevation gain (6:19, 6:01), felt good, calves somewhat sore from yesterday. PT2

PM stretching

Wed AM 7 miles on treadmill @ 1% grade, 6 miles progressive with last 3 miles in 5:42, 5:19, 5:01 felt good, calves still somewhat sore from Monday - means Fri should be good. Weights.

PM PT3

Thur AM 5 mile run, last mile 5:43, felt better as run progressed.

PM PT1 and stretching

Fri AM All indoors (cold/wet outside) at NIFS flat 200m track: 2+ mile warm-up, 4x100 (16-14.), 2x200 30., 6x400 with 1 minute rest 65, 66, 66, 65, 67, 66 (33.69, 32.86), getting fatigued on the last 2. 3x100 in 13.mid to low. 400's felt good, pleased to get through 6. 1 mile cool- down.

PM weights & PT2

Sat AM 4 miles treadmill @ 2% grade, 10:00/mile, nice and easy. PT3

PM Massage, Stretching

Sun Rest, calves still somewhat sore from Friday, good soreness.

It was nice to feel so good running this week, forgot what that was like! I'm going to drop the intensity a notch this coming week.

Good workouts and health to all!

Ken Martin

Ignore the 9/10 under Mon in the above post, it's just the date the week started.

For those of you who didn't see my post last week on the weekly MASTERS running and racing post I've copied my story below FYI:

'I need to start posting on here, a few reasons:

1. I was 'outed' inadvertently by a friend on Facebook;

2. I've been training since Jan. 1 but a recent PC & back-up HD crash means I lost my training entries, so posting here serves a similar purpose;

3. Accountability and purpose are big motivators for me.

First this week's training:

Mon 2 mile warm-up, 4x100m strides (16-14.5), 2x200 31, 30, 400 in 66., 2x1k in 3:01, 2:58, 1k the hard way in 2:56 (68,40,68), 800 in 2:21 (68,40,33 - was supposed to be a1k but felt tired at 800 so stopped), 2 mile cool down. PM physical therapy exercise set #1.

Tue 5 miles finishing up just under 6:00. PM physical therapy exercise set #2, stretching.

Wed 5 mile progressive run on treadmill at 1% grade, down to 5:13 pace. Weights. PM physical therapy exercise set #3.

Thur 7 mile run down to just under 6:00. PM PT1, stretching.

Fri 2 mile warm-up, 4x100m strides (16-14.5), 2x200 30.m, 29.h, 3x(3x300) first 200 in 35,34, & 33 with last 100m in 15, 100m jog between 300 's, 8-10 min recovery between sets. Wore spikes last 6, felt good, gear change good, last 300 in (47.09) 32.65/14.44. 1 mile cool down. PM weights, PT2.

Sat 4miles on treadmill @1% grade @ 10min pace. PT3. PM stretching.

Sun rest

I have stage IV Follicular non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma (fnhl), typically indolent (slow growing, usually most people don't realize they have it until it is stage IV in their mid-late 60's), I'm also 2+ years remission from Hodgkin's Lymphoma (5 year mark means all clear). I take no drugs, 'watch & wait' protocol!

My treatments included Doxorubicin (Adrionycin) which is toxic to the heart and damages mitochondria, patients are only allowed 8 cycles (I had 6), plus vincristine which often causes neuropathy (my fingers turned white at the end of the 1k's this week). My red blood count has remained below normal range for 9 months now, possibly the bone marrow involvement of the fnhl or damage from doxorubicin, last measure in Aug was 4.4. Thus, I take more recovery on intervals now than in my younger days and find longer intervals the most challenging. I'd be playing basketball now except for the neuropathy, so it has been a blessing in a way because it got me back into running and the following.

I''m going to go after the over 50 age group world record. Considering my red blood counts, I'm not sure if I'm going to plateau and not be able to get much faster (currently guess high 4:30 or 4:40 shape?), so I'm approaching this more from the 800 end (speed) as opposed to the aerobic power end of things when I was younger.

I want to raise awareness for a cancer research fund I have started with some scientists, WorkOutCancer.org, plus show cancer patients that they can exercise, although I certainly don't expect them to do the intensity that I am currently doing. I have purposely kept to the mile and not longer distances. I have a compromised immune system and there is some evidence that chronic high intensity exercise might be detrimental. So the mile suits me and I enjoy doing some track work again.

I was shooting for the 5th Ave Mile but a few minor injuries have delayed my progression. Currently I am nearly over a tendon strain and am waiting for that to be 100% before I feel I can start planning a record attempt, most likely early indoors.

That sums things up fairly well. I'll post each week as I continue on towards, hopefully, a fast mile. My birthday is tomorrow, I'll be 54, I've got some 800's planned, 4 sub 2:20's would be a nice present!

If any other masters would like to get involved with me in this mile I'd sure appreciate any competition, even if I get beat, or any fundraising or marketing efforts too.

Here's too good training and health for all!

Cheers!

Ken Martin'

Ken. Nice to have you join us. I know we'd communicated earlier this spring, and I wasn't much help. Sorry about that.

Best of luck on your research efforts, your own lymphoma battle, and on your racing goals. I, for one, will look forward to you engaging us in any and all of those areas.

That's one helluva week of workouts, by the way!

When I was competitive, I ran some relatively fast times off distance and volume and yes, everyone is different.

Cringe away ;-)

.

Great to see a once great track program restored.

http://portlandtribune.com/pt-rss/12-sports/115237-oregon-state-getting-back-on-track-in-a-big-way-

Go Beavs! Any of you ever race on the old Wayne Valley track? It was so nice and fast. This new track looks great and I hope they continue to obtain the needed funding for the next phases.

MN

Week 67: 12 hr 11 min in 12 runs, 2 of them workouts

Tue 1 hr 27 with drills, strides, 5x hill

Sat 2 hr 30 out 1:20 back 1:10 about 17.5 miles total

Heading for 14 hours per week which would be about 75 miles in AM runs and 15-20 miles in PM runs. Keeping all the auxiliary work too. Feels good. Mum on the PF for now as I may be on the verge of solving it but don't want to have to retract any overconfident statements.

@WOC - I would love to run a fast mile! Sign me up! Oh, wait. Does that mean I have to train like you? Because I could never do even one of your weeks. :(

@lucKY2b - I'm big on stretching but found it can only do so much and I need strength work. So I am doing something I call "hip raises", recommended by the PTs in the running group I belong to. Stand on the stairs facing the handrail with one foot on a step and the other foot hanging over the next step down. Keeping both legs straight lower and raise the hanging hip. I hold a 15 lb weight in the hand on the hanging side; started with no weight and worked up. I do calf raises (heel drops) first, hip raises next, then the reverse drops that nyloco recommended in the weekly masters thread. BTW, nyloco says the reverse drops are against shin splints, for me they benefit the knees. I do 4-5 times per week, each of those 3 with 3 sets of 10 each leg, the only rest between sets is the alternate leg. On my favorite theme of non-running activities causing "running" injuries: One thing I have to watch out for is that I tend to recline, e.g. when reading, always on my left side (left elbow, left hip, left knee), which leaves the right hip in the air and under constant strain. If I remember to switch sometimes to the right side, or even better just sit in a chair, my right hip thanks me when I run.

Thanks Alan B, I'll give it a try. I'm finding that the exercises I'm doing (mostly donkey kicks, clams, and lateral legs lifts) just aren't cutting it. The retro-running and lateral "jumping jacks" steps have been great for the knee, however. And yes, I'm not great about maintaining posture when I'm relaxing in a chair, which I'm sure only exacerbates the hip situation.

This thread continues to deliver a lot of good information. I really don't do any specific stretches. I seem to have mostly negative experiences when I try. Having said that, the core exercises I do seem to always stretch out some tight areas such as the clamshells and Pete Magill foot twirls.

I got in 30-35 easy miles this week plus one bike interval session. I have really been focusing on my form as I build the mileage back up after my PF episode. I try to stay vertical and relaxed because it seems to be good for my hamstrings, PF and probably several other "sub chronic" items. That's all good, but it has meant that the pace of my runs, especially the weekend long runs, is slower than I would like. I am hoping that the pace will start to come up as I build up the muscles used when I run tall and relaxed. In the meantime I use the once a week bike interval sessions to get my heart rate up. I may start doing that twice a week if I get tempted to increase the pace on my runs.

Felt like absolute crap all week and bailed early on Thursday's track session...had some deep tissue work and active isolated stretching thereafter and just jogged for two days and then VOILA, managed a 1:37 1/2 marathon this morning even though I died big time after 10.

Moral of the story is being willing to listen to the age 50+ body and trust that backing off when in trouble usually beats the age 27 or 32 "continue to hammer through it" approach.

On a separate topic,how about them Ken Martin workouts??? WOWeee! Then again, Ken IS one of the very few men in the entire world to have run sub 4:00 mile and fast marathon (i.e.2;11?)...serious serious "range".

Priveleged to have you in this forum Ken...pulling for your health/recovery and eventual racing.

stay well,

MF

wxboy wrote:

... I have really been focusing on my form as I build the mileage back up after my PF episode. I try to stay vertical and relaxed because it seems to be good for my hamstrings, PF and probably several other "sub chronic" items. That's all good, but it has meant that the pace of my runs, especially the weekend long runs, is slower than I would like. ...

Have you tried the leaning from the ankles thing? Look in Thomas Miller's "Programmed to Run" (2002) or in Danny Dreyer's "Chi" books (2004 and later). I don't like the crap-scientific rationale that you "fall forward" -- that's just bad physics. But I do find that I run faster without losing the tall and relaxed feeling. Good for long runs at least, although I tend to save it for the second half, as I usually poke along at first and then negative split.

I've had kind of a busy month or so, getting the kids back to school and running HTC. Now that that part is done, it's xc season, with my daughter running at college and my son in HS (and another daughter dancing) and me getting ready for my own season. Nationals are in December and I hope I qualify for our W50 team, but there are at least 7 women (and maybe a couple of more) trying to snag the 4 team spots (and I suppose they'd let a 5th run if she paid all her own expenses).

I've done hardly any real training and haven't even kept track of my miles. I have run every day and do a long run every week and I *try* to do something harder each week. Since HTC, however, I've only done two "workouts" - like 10 x 1 min. with 2 min. recovery and one 4 mile or so tempo run. I haven't even done drills or hills or anything - it's a good thing there is about 3 months before the club race.

My son and I went north to see my daughter run a xc race and because two of my teammates were also running, I entered as well. We'd made all our reservations (train/bus etc) when I got a tearful call from my daughter, who'd broken her toe the day before (Thursday). We were leaving later that day, so we went up anyway.

Her trainer said no running for 2 weeks. Her coach, who was at another meet with the top runners, told her she should try to run through the pain. She planned to take the team van over to the meet and meet us there, but unbeknownst to me, she had gone to the trainer very early in the morning and had her foot taped. She told me when we got there that she was going to warm up and see how it felt. In the end, she decided to race.

It was a large field (over 200) and a narrow course and the start was crazy. There were 4 50 year old women in the race (3 of us on the same team) and we were trying not to be last. For once, I got a really good start, but it was terrifying because there was no place to run, there were women everywhere and we were practically tripping over each other or running into trees.

The start is mostly downhill and the course is fast (and/or possibly short). I was swept past the mile in about 6:15 and didn't find room to run on my own for well over 2 miles. I didn't panic and managed to find my teammate and run with her for a while until the final loop (around 4k). I knew I was running well because of where I was in the pack and relative to my teammates and my daughter's teammates.

The course is half downhill and half up each loop. I started to hurt on the last up (no surprise as I hadn't actually practiced "race pace"), but hung in there and wound up finishing well within the top half of the race. I did go through the wrong chute and lost about 5-10 seconds/places in the results, but I had a time on my watch. It was my fastest time in ages (like 7 years) - by far better than last year.

I turned around and saw my daughter in the chute, about a minute back. She had cut 2 1/2 minutes off her time from the year before - even with the broken toe! So proud of her! She's been 2 minutes faster in both the 3 mile time trial/races she's run this year, so her improvement has been very good. She's finally learning to race - and that's all she needs to do to pass me.

Now, all i have to do is a) stay healthy and fit b) try to perform well enough to qualify for the team and c) save up enough money for the team's discounted fare to nationals. None of those will be really easy!

My calves are sore today even without wearing spikes yesterday. I ran an easy 14 today, but was cautious on the trails since I've fallen 3 times in the last 10 days due to fatigue.

lucKY2b

You were helpful, thanks. I will pursue that contact soon, just waiting for some Facebook website glitches to be corrected first.

1500master

The OSU track is where I set my HS 800 pb. I remember it well, great track at the time although the grounds/stadium surroundings didn't match the track. Glad to see them back, even as a Duck. Kelly is a good guy who is a great fit for them. We raced each other back in Jr College and came from the same area of Oregon (north coast) before I moved south near Coos Bay. Don't mind saying go Beavs!

Question for all the knowledgable runners here, and I know there are plenty.

At 62, training for a half-marathon, is this a sufficient training plan to help get me to my best possible half-marathon time? or will I need more. I have approximately 16 weeks.

Long run of 16 miles.

2 mile warm up

6 X 1 Mile at 10k pace (building up from 3 now)

2 mile cool down

Medium long run - 10 miles

2 mile warm up

12 X 400 at Mile pace (building up from 8 now)

2 mile cool down.

Just a little over 40 miles, but is it enough? This is planned for four days (Monday mile repeats, Wednesday medium distance, Friday 400s, Saturday Long run) with rest on three.

I am only concerned because I am trying to insert more rest, and in the past simply relied on higher mileage.

Comments Please.