50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Racerdb wrote:

I stumbled upon this article the other day. It might be the most informative of the hundreds I've Googled. If you don't want to take the time to read it, scroll all the way down to the conclusion. I interpreted it as dismissing all forms of treatment, including surgery, except for eccentric heel dips, 3x15 twice a day for 12 weeks. Religiously. I've been doing them for years, stopping when things get better and slacking at other times. I see this as my last hope so I'll be doing them, as many as I can handle, everyday. Its also the first time I've read that you can run as long as long as the pain is under a '5'.

Thanks for finding this, Dave! Did you ever hear the story of how the Swedish scientist discovered heel dips? He was in such chronic Achilles pain but his employer wouldn’t give him time off for surgery. So he decided to induce an Achilles rupture and thought the best way to do that would be pushing off a step with his Achilles as rapidly as he could. Within days the pain was gone.

I had not heard about doing it with a pack on, though. I’m going to have to try that!

amkelley wrote:

... for insertional Achilles problems, do the heel drops only down to floor level ("flat" heel drops). I have not gone back and tried that, though.

I dealt with achilles issues off and on during the past few years. Insertional, I believe, as that's where the pain was. I was careful to dip only to floor level when doing the eccentric drops. "Cured" the problem within a few weeks each time. And after finally including eccentric drops as part of the daily routine (going a bit lower than floor level), I remained pain free.

Now, as a non-runner, I've stopped doing the heel drops, and have had some pain again.

Regarding the 4% shoes, another anecdote: After a 5K race in August, a fellow 60+ runner told me he ran 20 seconds faster wearing the Vaporfly for the first time that day -- like 18:40 versus 19-flat. Certified course (and I double-checked the start/finish against the USATF map).

A bunch of the club members wore the Vaporfly shoes for the first time that day, and ALL reported huge improvements. I recall there was quite a lengthy thread here discussing Vaporflys and that particular race -- started by one of the Open women racers.

My problem is my left achilles feels so weak and painful so I'm having a problem doing much over 50/day. I do some in the morning but by evening it feels too fatigued and painful to do many more.

Pain gone within days??? At this point I'd do nearly anything for it to be gone!

I'll attempt another 3x15 right now!

Dave

Allen1959 wrote:

Now, as a non-runner, I've stopped doing the heel drops, and have had some pain again.

Wow...sorry to hear that. I've noticed you haven't posted your weekly reports lately. It's your knee? I don't recall if it was patellofemoral arthritis or some other diagnosis. Have you thought about an MRI? I've had 6 in the last 15 yrs (2 on each knee, one ankle and one shoulder).

I found in my cases the MRI imaging showed something different than the X-rays and clinical was showing. One of my knees was classic: The initial clinical & X-ray ruled out OA but suggesed a torn meniscus (doctor pushing for surgery). Got a second opinion from a doctor who denied my MRI request and said a torn PCL instead of meniscus (he also wanted to do surgery). Got ticked-off and sought a 3rd opinion demanding an MRI which showed neither a torn meniscus nor PCL but a strained patellar tendon, which responded quite well to several weeks of aggressive eccentric knee excercises. So, if wasn't for the power of MRI (and a good MSK radiologist to review it), I would have probably had an unnecessary surgical procedure. So, IMO, you have to know exactly what type of injury you're up against and sometimes doctors think they can give all the answers just off of clinical exams & X-rays (and many times they don't really care anyway).

Assuming you have something going on with the patellofemoral compartment, have you tried knee eccentrics? (there's some good literature on that from either Sweden or Norway researchers). Also, what about bracing?

Hate to see you not able to run - hope there's a way for you to get back at it.

Stocky Old Runner wrote:

I've noticed you haven't posted your weekly reports lately. It's your knee? I don't recall if it was patellofemoral arthritis or some other diagnosis. Have you thought about an MRI? I've had 6 in the last 15 yrs (2 on each knee, one ankle and one shoulder).

I found in my cases the MRI imaging showed something different than the X-rays and clinical was showing.

Stocky, thanks for the thoughts and information. Good for you, in insisting on an accurate diagnosis! I hope you continue to do well.

I had a few X-rays of one of my knees about a year ago. I had fallen onto that one during a run, and it was particularly sore -- and not getting any better. But both knees have hurt for a few years.

The X-rays showed a pointy bone spur at the top of the patella, where the quadriceps tendon attaches. There is also a lot of calcification of the tendon itself. I'm assuming both knees have the same conditions.

Bone separation looked pretty good, so I'm assuming the cartilage isn't too bad. But the bone spur and the calcification cause constant irritation and inflammation. The symptoms are the same as classic "runners knee," very painful walking down stairs, pain if sitting for long periods, weakness and pain stepping up or standing from a squat.

Rehab exercises helped some, but I don't have the patience to be consistent with them.

A couple years ago, with the same symptoms, I was eventually able to return to training/racing by doing eccentric leg extensions on a nautilus machine -- lift with both legs, lower with just one. I maintained that routine a few times a week, and was able to transition from the elliptical to actual running.

After the hard fall onto my knee, it didn't respond to my previous protocol.

Recently, a new pair of New Balance More shoes (similar to cushioned Hoka shoes, but low-drop) allowed me to run a few miles a couple times a week. But without a goal race in mind, it's difficult to maintain interest and motivation, especially with the early arrival of winter this year -- cold, snow and ice.

Sunday will make four weeks since I've run at all. And my weight has been ballooning quickly. I'm not burning as many calories now, and, worse, in lieu of running as stress relief, I turn to sweets.

Gonna have to do something. I like to bike, but only in good weather, and I abhor the trainer. The elliptical is almost tolerable, but can't imagine sticking with it. Oh well.

I enjoyed many years of running and racing -- since 1972 -- often at the expense of other interests. Time now to stretch some canvases and get back to painting. Organize my shop and make furniture. Finish the restoration of our 1832 home -- only a few more window sash and shutters to construct. Ha!

Allen1959 wrote:

And my weight has been ballooning quickly. I'm not burning as many calories now, and, worse, in lieu of running as stress relief, I turn to sweets.

Gonna have to do something. I like to bike, but only in good weather, and I abhor the trainer. The elliptical is almost tolerable, but can't imagine sticking with it. Oh well.

I'm really sorry to hear that you've had to drop out of running entirely. The part about gaining weight when inactive is a big part of why I shy away from considering surgery for my Achilles. I don't want to think about the level of food deprivation that would be necessary to maintain weight when able to do no exercise.

I have developed quite a tolerance for the trainer, which I use a lot when injured in the winter (here it doesn't snow, but I won't ride outdoors in the dark and I can't get out during daylight hours during the week). I don't even use any fancy Peloton or anything--just a road bike mounted on a trainer, with music. I guess I have a high tolerance for boredom, but have you considered something like a Peloton to make it less boring? I know Pelotons are really expensive but I suspect cheaper alternatives exist.

All the posts about Achilles repair are making me think perhaps I should try the eccentric heel drops again, but only down to floor level. However, I hesitate to mess with what is more or less working for me right now.

amkelley wrote:

I have developed quite a tolerance for the trainer, which I use a lot when injured in the winter (here it doesn't snow, but I won't ride outdoors in the dark and I can't get out during daylight hours during the week). I don't even use any fancy Peloton or anything--just a road bike mounted on a trainer, with music. I guess I have a high tolerance for boredom, but have you considered something like a Peloton to make it less boring? I know Pelotons are really expensive but I suspect cheaper alternatives exist.

New equipment isn't in the budget, but I can mount my road bike on the magnetic resistance training and get a decent workout. Games like "hard for two minutes, spin for a minute," help. It's really just a matter of motivation and time management.

Honestly, I am in awe of folks like you: high-pressure full-time jobs, the usual home-and-property chores, commutes, and still running 60, 70+ mpw! I've tried getting up early like you, but am apparently too weak-willed.

Still, I'm hoping to return to jogging two or three times a week. But, again, without competitive goals, getting motivated is a

challenge.

Plus the weather sure doesn't inspire enthusiasm.

Today isn't too bad. Well, at least it's relatively warm -- 30 degrees -- but lake-effect squalls, 25-30 mph gusts.

My sports chiropractor, whom I consider essential to continuing to run competitively into my 60s, has me soak both feet to mid-calf daily in a 5 gallon bucket filled with water as hot as I can stand. The hot water bath improves blood flow to my Achilles tendon, plantar fascia and ankle area and takes away most aches and pains in that area. It really makes a difference and is the cheapest treatment available. I also do eccentric heel raises and Achilles/calf stretches 2-3 days per week for prevention. I do not take NSAIDS on a regular basis.

3:15 at age 56 is a pretty good first effort.

"quads and hams were sore for about 3-4 days after." This is pretty normal for your first marathon - see Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS) - and is probably NOT related to the shoes. It is surprising how much more taxing 26 miles at race pace is than 22 miles at training pace.

One of the questions I have seen is whether Next% help runners with slower paces (i.e 9 minute miles or higher) which is why I tried my pair in a half marathon where I could run 7:30s or faster. My marathon pace is 8:00 and under, so I think I am good to go and I don't think I will wear them for training, except possibly for VO2, intervals and other speed work.

Peaky Blinders wrote:

My sports chiropractor, whom I consider essential to continuing to run competitively into my 60s, has me soak both feet to mid-calf daily in a 5 gallon bucket filled with water as hot as I can stand. The hot water bath improves blood flow to my Achilles tendon, plantar fascia and ankle area and takes away most aches and pains in that area. It really makes a difference and is the cheapest treatment available. I also do eccentric heel raises and Achilles/calf stretches 2-3 days per week for prevention. I do not take NSAIDS on a regular basis.

Add about 1lb of Epsom Salts...take small handfuls and rub as a salve into those areas...difference maker.

your pal,

MF

I’ll second that. Good report on the zippy shoes OC!

Allen1959 wrote:

Sunday will make four weeks since I've run at all. And my weight has been ballooning quickly. I'm not burning as many calories now, and, worse, in lieu of running as stress relief, I turn to sweets.

Now is the perfect time to get very serious about your diet because it will benefit your recovery, and more importantly, improve your running when you inevitably DO HEAL. Because you will get better, that is a given!

Your diet is more important than running. Your diet is more important than running. Your diet is more important than running. Your diet is more important than running.......................

Have been running pretty regularly here about 4 days/week and 5-8 miles per day outside with temps 20-30 degrees.

Was able to get on an indoor track two days ago and did a 12X200 workout. Mile and a half warm up and 2 mile cool down.

Splits were faster than originally planned but it felt pretty easy overall much to my surprise:

42;43;43;43;43;43;43;43;43;43;41;38

My training has been going well. Over the last couple of months (since I last posted) I ran my longest long run since August

2018. I've run longer repeats such as 2K repeats on the grass. I've run 4 X 3/4 mile, Mile repeats, and 1/2 miles repeats.

I've run my favorite speed repeats like 10 X 200 and 100m types. Most of my running is over small rolling hills.

I did run a really fast XC 8K. I'm just going to run and race by how I feel.

Charlie, here's a new study consider in dealing with the aging process, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-019-0673-2

Hi folks

Upfront apologies about following self pity!

Back to running after having arthroscopic knee surgery for a torn meniscus 9 weeks ago. This was a really tough summer, suffered 2 non running related injuries that really threw me for a loop.

First was a severe back strain from bending over to pick up a pail of water while washing a car

Next up was what turned out to be a torn meniscus caused by trying to clip out of bike pedals that were fixed in the max tightness location. It took a few months to get thru the whole diagnosis process and finally schedule surgery so I haven't run since mid August.

I managed a couple very easy 4 milers this week but the snow and icy roads here are tough to deal with.

Trying to maintain a sense of hopefulness but that's been super tough. I was in really good shape (for a 60 year old geezer) prior to getting hurt so it's depressing to be where I am physically.

OK. So maybe its not the shoes....

I usually walk my dog 2-3 miles every day, but had only run 3 times for less than 15 miles total since the marathon two weeks ago.

Decided to run a local half yesterday. I ran it in 2018 and finished in 1:40 with an even split (50/50).

Since my son borrowed the Next% I had to run in a pair of Fuel Cell Rebel shoes I purchased the night before the race. I had an old pair in the rotation so wasn't too concerned about breaking them in.

Finished in 1:32 and change with a slight negative split (about 50 seconds). While the Fuel Cell felt different than the Next%, I do not think I could have run any faster if I had the Next%.

...and as I am writing this, I have have even run slower in the Next% due to wear and tear from the marathon. I like to run in different types of shoes since I have a theory that the slight variances in design may help just a bit in minimizing repetitive stress injuries. Racing a full and half so close together on the same shoe may not have been ideal in my situation.

All in all though, I don't regret getting the Next%, it really is a good shoe. Because of the price though I will definitely not use it for training - it's a race only shoe - provided I can get them back from my son.

jimBO$, that’s tough. I think you deserve some self-pity, as long as it doesn’t stop you from digging in and working to get back in shape as soon as your injuries allow.

I had another very solid training week of 79 miles during rainy but reasonably warm weather.

Mon: About 10 miles in a torrential downpour. That’s as hard as I’ve ever seen it rain without a thunderstorm. The storm drains couldn’t keep up with the rainfall, and there were many areas where I was splashing through ankle-deep rivers or lakes in the middle of streets. It was slow, but at 51 degrees with little wind I didn’t get chilled despite being drenched to the skin within the first 30 seconds.

Tues: 10.9 miles in overcast but dry weather.

Weds: 10.2 miles in a “normal” hard rain.

Thurs: 10.8 miles, no rain.

Fri: 10.4 miles, no rain.

Sat: 10.6 miles, windy and warm (mid-50s) with just a few sprinkles.

Sun: 16.1 miles in 2:27 (9:08/mile pace), mid-50s with occasional sprinkles. Felt very good. I wished it had rained more as I was getting hot by the end—imagine being too hot when running at 8 am in December! The sky looked threatening and I kept hearing promising rumbles of thunder, but nothing much materialized.

Next Saturday is my traditional holiday-themed 5K race. I will back off the mileage this week and try to come up to that race with some legs under me. Then I have to decide whether I want to actually try to train for the full marathon at the end of March. I’m entered, but I can always bail out and do the half-marathon instead.

So after taking last week off due to a strained arch I eased (kinda) back into this week.

Tuesday 3 easy miles

Wed 8 easy

Thur 10 medium effort

Fri 8 easy

Sat 10 mile progression on my treadmill starting easy working down to 6 min. pace (that hurt).

Today 12 miles easy.

The arch is feeling fairly good, at least it is tolerable. I ice as soon as I finish running. It is slowly getting better. At least the running is not making it worse.

So I was checking out another post regarding masters using PED's. Most people on that site thinks that many good masters use some form of enhancing drugs to run better. I hope they are wrong. I would like to think that at least the master runners that race on a high level are clean. I would be very disappointed to find out other wise. If I get beat by someone I am totally fine as long as I do my best and they are clean. Otherwise it might be time to end my competitve career.

Also regarding the Nike Vaporflys. I am torn on whether or not to buy a pair. I hate to think I ran well because of a pair of shoes. But at the same time, if my competitors are wearing them then it would just level the playing field. I plan on competing in the Worlds this summer including a couple of road races (10k and 1/2 marathon). If those from other countries are wearing them then I need to also.

I would like to hear feedback from the above two topics.

Good luck to those competing on Saturday at the Club XC Nationals. I will be watching on the internet.