Well, now I’m thoroughly confused. The first links from Charlie and Igy we’re making me a believer. But Igy’s second link, which is the newest and with the largest test group, seems to debunk the whole idea. I guess the jury is still out.
Well, now I’m thoroughly confused. The first links from Charlie and Igy we’re making me a believer. But Igy’s second link, which is the newest and with the largest test group, seems to debunk the whole idea. I guess the jury is still out.
Beckee wrote:
Well, now I’m thoroughly confused. The first links from Charlie and Igy we’re making me a believer. But Igy’s second link, which is the newest and with the largest test group, seems to debunk the whole idea. I guess the jury is still out.
I was just adding to the discussion of aging and participation in long distance running. I’m not advocating a view on A-Fib and exercise. I am just stating a point that friends have stopped competitive endurance participation from the perception that it was exercised induced. One is an exercise physiologist and the other an anesthesiologist. Both were heavy into running and triathlon competitions. I have mentioned in the past of four high level marathoners that were diagnosed with lymphoma. I personally would not alter my exercise behavior based on these or other possible negatives.
Dag is cool I once lived in a step van parked in an orange orchard behind Cal Sate Northridge went down to the beach on weekends people thought I was nuts I met some pretty cool people during that time period 5 years or so. Dude is skinny skinny my all time favorite loner not lonely is Alone in the Wilderness Dick Proenneke on youtubehttps://youtu.be/wTT9IIVxonc?t=35
Know A-Fib wrote:
I am a runner for 47 years, ~180K miles total lifetime. Suffered A-fib with six major cardioversions (heart restart) ages 44-53. Doctor said to "get used to it, we can't treat it". After trying various lifestyle adjustments that didn't work such as avoiding interval work and stopping caffeine, I adopted a paleo then a keto diet. I have now been symptom-free for a decade, and still run long and train hard. I am, so far, the only person I have heard of to accomplish this. I have encountered hints in the literature around metabolic syndrome and in particular a connection with omega-6 fatty acids that suggest a mechanistic link. All I know is that it is extremely liberating to be free of a-fib specifically and the diseases of chronic inflammation in general.
Go Keto another 10 years and carbs are worse than smokes will be main stream but way too much money invested in the carb industry and seed oil industry wheat corn soy all processed foods coke pepsi and on and on and of course the type 2 diabetic industry selling insulin which is like treating alcoholism with a beer crazy stuff. If I was running things corp execs who run these places would be doing hard time just on and on but docs like Jason Fung are my heros.
https://youtu.be/jcnd3usdNxo?t=3969I'm with the embarrassed. I went through menopause really late (57-58) and since then, I've gotten "minutes per mile" slower and it's really disappointing. Fortunately, I rarely race, so in my mind I don't know my slug-like speed when running in the woods. However, I am entered at the club xc nationals - my 18 consecutive club championship, although its getting really difficult to persuade myself to go at this point. And it's not just the relative slowness, it's the fact that I'm not even competitive in my age group any more - I've slowed so much more than everyone else and I'm not exactly sure why.
Anyway, I've been doing a 12 week training plan (Pfitzinger) for this xc race. I had been running ~40 miles a week (or less), and I hadn't been injured since February (cracked rib).
This plan pushed me up to 55 last week, which was a really a stretch with multiple 10 mi days. But I made it through and now I'm tapering down. I've done one hard workout a week, generally the VO2 max kind, something I typically eschew in favor of LT runs. I've been taking one day a week (Mon) off and doing an hour of PT/strength work. The last few weeks, I didn't switch off from DST in order to try to get more of my runs in during daylight. Unfortunately for me, last weekend, I was in Denver - which made that early morning long run pretty grim! (and also hard since 5 miles of it were on concrete!)
I've raced only 3 times - once pre-season, with a horrifically slow 6k (even slower than I'd run last year when I hadn't been running for 2 1/2 months) and then another a few weeks ago. At that race (a mixed masters xc race), I only met my "C" goal - to be faster than the pre-season race, but other than that, it was mostly disappointing. I started out in last and only passed a few people (all of whom finished about 3 minutes behind me) the first 2k, and then spent the rest of the race chasing a trio of 70 year olds. I got pretty close to the last one, maybe a few seconds, but a quarter mile to the finish, he knew i was there and left me 4 seconds in arrears. Even though I pushed hard at the end, I couldn't catch him or break my pathetic B goal. However, I ran 50 seconds faster than the first race and I was proud that I kept focused even though I was in no-man's land for most of the race, but I was really hoping to be faster.
Thanksgiving, I ran a goofy fun run (5k) since I'd missed regionals. There were no mile markers and I got stuck behind a dog at one point and a double wide stroller on a narrow trail, which led to me getting gapped for a while. Also stopped for a seconds because a lost the route! My Sunday training partner (who was not racing) caught me with about 4 minutes to go, so she was motivation to keep going. My time was a little bit (~15 sec) faster per mile than the xc race, but not nearly what I'd hoped. It was untimed and not certified, though it seemed reasonably accurate.
Anyway, I'm not sure what I'll do after this. XC in SD in January would be appealing, if I wasn't so slow.
MG
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
Another phenomenon of the motivated endurance athlete is the occurrence of A-Fib with aging.
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
I’m not advocating a view on A-Fib and exercise.
Ummmm....
Hellooooooooo? wrote:
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
Another phenomenon of the motivated endurance athlete is the occurrence of A-Fib with aging.
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
I’m not advocating a view on A-Fib and exercise.
Ummmm....
That is an occurrence, like OA, now is there a correlation?
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
Hellooooooooo? wrote:
Ummmm....
That is an occurrence, like OA, now is there a correlation?
Correlation is not causation.
?
Charlie wrote:
Go Keto another 10 years and carbs are worse than smokes will be main stream but way too much money invested in the carb industry and seed oil industry wheat corn soy all processed foods coke pepsi and on and on and of course the type 2 diabetic industry selling insulin which is like treating alcoholism with a beer crazy stuff. If I was running things corp execs who run these places would be doing hard time just on and on but docs like Jason Fung are my heros.
https://youtu.be/jcnd3usdNxo?t=3969
I don't why carbs get such a bad name. My theory is this is the aggressive Keto movement where they've had success with the diet (a lot with weight loss) and therfore try to coerce people into using the diet. The culprit should be processed and non-organic foods and generally poor eating habits.
The Japanese eat, and have eaten for generations, a high-carb diet and they are some of the healthiest people in the world. I've been married 23 yrs now to an Asian woman and we eat a high-carb diet hands down. Organic brown & white rice with freash fish is eaten daily. We also consume a lot of organic raw vegetables and plenty of soy products. I eat a ton of oat bran cereal and a couple of boiled eggs for breakfast every day. Our favorite beverage is several cups of green tea each day. We're both very healthy and I have a ton of energy to work out 7 days week (4 run days & 3 gym days for weights & swimming).
So, I don't get why a carbs get such a bad name these days and the "Keto diet" is pushed on center stage as the only healthy way to eat. I guess at the end of the day it's personal preference and what works best for each person and their families.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffpost.com/entry/japan-healthiest-people-in-the-world-carbs-high-grain-diet_n_56f08cc4e4b084c6722139ca/amphttps://www.google.com/amp/s/www.today.com/today/amp/tdna147397https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/45/4/443/1680839Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
The culprit should be processed and non-organic foods and generally poor eating habits.
So, I don't get why a carbs get such a bad name these days and the "Keto diet" is pushed on center stage as the only healthy way to eat. I guess at the end of the day it's personal preference and what works best for each person and their families.
+1
I get it, a “vegan diet” built on processed burgers and convenience meals and snack food is no diet at all. I’m making the gang Beyond burgers this evening, basically to give myself a break. Up till this point, Thanksgiving weekend has been a steady train of made-from-scratch, whole-food, plant-based eats. And really, once you get the hang of it, preparing meals everyone likes from these ingredients is not difficult. We just got an Instant Pot and I see why people love it. I threw together a minestrone just as the grandkids were pulling up, and by the time we got everyone’s coats off and hugs exchanged and beers cracked, it was ready.
Since this is the 50+ thread I’m assuming we’ve all got time on our hands to do it right. And if you do it right, you can definitely have optimal eating habits. Ethically I’d avoid anything from the animal (and fish) agriculture industry, but I can see a path to optimal even with some of that in your diet.
KCgeezer wrote:
A lot of unclarity there, Igy. I'll take my joie de vivre and keep pushing toward 2000 hours ...
Coyote Montane wrote:
And as for the second part, I doubt that I'm special in any way, but motivated to keep going by two primary things. Just like to keep in shape/hate being out of shape, and an hour+ or so a day keeps me fit. And not having competed in high school, and having a tough time of it in college where I didn't come close to my potential seems to have implanted some inner demons, so while not all that talented I'm kind of driven.
Vigorous headnod. I did do high school XC, but just barely. In three months I went from walk-on to third on the team that took second at state. A late-entry team to the TAC national XC race in Ohio six weeks later, in which we finished I think 103rd out of 110 teams, and a discouraging letter from a coach at the college I would be attending, snuffed out my hopes of continuing to compete. It was only 30+ years later that I saw my potential left at the starting line.
Hey, are you going to healthy in time for San Diego? I looked at the results from 2011, the last time this race was held at Mission Bay, and those times were lightning fast. I've been focusing more on running off effort and that would serve me well here, because I have no clue what pace to set.
Good to know several of you are planning to attend. Except for CM, I only know people's noms de guerre so we'll have to have a get-acquainted on Friday.
Yeah, I'm staying out of the side-discussion here. But will munch on a couple handfuls of popcorn as they go back and forth.
KC, sorry you got that letter when you were just starting out. But good that you found yourself training again in your 40s.
I'm doubtful but possible for San Diego. I'll start running in about a week, see how it goes, and make a decision about 2 weeks out. It also depends on our team status. I won't be in top shape but could help the team if we have a quorum.
Good to see MG and Cush chime in. Added to what Cush said, I may be a sicko but actually like the grind, the feel of putting together some challenging workouts. A 6.5 or 7 mile tempo at 6000 feet isn't always easy going but it feels good to get out there, lock into an effort and and just let it flow. And related to that, and MF's observations, I have indeed heard a number of former elite and sub elite runners say they put in a lot of hard miles and racing when they were young and just don't feel the desire to go to that level hurt/discomfort anymore. I dunno, I love that stuff. The mile and marathon kind of suck in their own ways, but in between those I really enjoy it.
MG that's quite a string and I hope you keep it going and find away to get back to the fitness levels you enjoyed a few years ago.
KCgeezer wrote:
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
The culprit should be processed and non-organic foods and generally poor eating habits.
So, I don't get why a carbs get such a bad name these days and the "Keto diet" is pushed on center stage as the only healthy way to eat. I guess at the end of the day it's personal preference and what works best for each person and their families.
+1
I get it, a “vegan diet” built on processed burgers and convenience meals and snack food is no diet at all. I’m making the gang Beyond burgers this evening, basically to give myself a break. Up till this point, Thanksgiving weekend has been a steady train of made-from-scratch, whole-food, plant-based eats. And really, once you get the hang of it, preparing meals everyone likes from these ingredients is not difficult. We just got an Instant Pot and I see why people love it. I threw together a minestrone just as the grandkids were pulling up, and by the time we got everyone’s coats off and hugs exchanged and beers cracked, it was ready.
Since this is the 50+ thread I’m assuming we’ve all got time on our hands to do it right. And if you do it right, you can definitely have optimal eating habits. Ethically I’d avoid anything from the animal (and fish) agriculture industry, but I can see a path to optimal even with some of that in your diet.
"[R]odent carcinogens are present in the following foods: anise, apple, apricot, banana, basil, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, cantaloupe, caraway, carrot, cauliflower, celery, cherries, cinnamon, cloves, cocoa, coffee, collard greens, comfrey herb tea, currants, dill, eggplant, endive, fennel, grapefruit juice, grapes, guava, honey, honeydew melon, horseradish, kale, lentils, lettuce, mango, mushrooms, mustard, nutmeg, orange juice, parsley, parsnip, peach, pear, peas, black pepper, pineapple, plum, potato, radish, raspberries, rosemary, sesame seeds, tarragon, tea, tomato, and turnip. Thus, it is probable that almost every fruit and vegetable in the supermarket contains natural plant pesticides that are rodent carcinogens. The levels of these... rodent carcinogens in the above plants are commonly thousands of times higher than the levels of synthetic pesticides." [Emphasis added]
I think one reason I am still motivated is for the fact I was always injured in high school. For example, as a senior, I won our district xc meet but hurt my foot right after and could not run at state. As a freshman in college, I was ranked 4th nationally amoung community college runners in the 6 mile. Bad case of tenonitis ended that season. Got the flu the night before a qualifying race for the NAIA nationals and did not qualify. Nerve damage ended my junior year of college in track. Finally as a senior stayed healthy and placed 4th at NAIA xc nationals and 2nd that spring in the six mile race. As a masters age 55, I was ready to tear up the record book. I ran a 4 miler in practice averaging 5:35. Shortly later hamstring problems ended that period in my life. Was still able to run 16:14 at age 55 to break the AR for 5,000 on the track to be broken later by Brian Pilcher. I could train much easier and probably have some success but that is not me. So everytime I have a setback I am more determined to pull through and kick butt. Speaking of injuries, I started wearing othotics about 2 weeks ago since I am a pronator. About a week ago my right foot became sore (I assume from the orthotic). So what should I have done? Easy into the orthotic, or take a day or two off. Oh no, not me. Full speed ahead and handle the pain. Not smart. Now my foot is too sore to run. I have taken four days off. It is getting better but still might be several days before I can run again. You would think I should have known better. I need to work at becoming wiser in my decisions.
*Week 441*
Salutations, 50+ers! Thanksgiving is over, December is upon us! Wow! That was fast! And so much discussion last week. Must be those days off from work. I really appreciate some of the detailed reports both regarding recent races and also where you are at and how you feel you've maintained your motivation. I especially enjoyed reading Cush's take as someone who has been at or near the top for a very long time. Sorry to hear that Pete's plans have derailed. I think that I agree with all the responses, and I suspect they all contribute to some degree. For me, it's always been because it is what I enjoy. I did take along break from running (early 20s to mid 40s), mostly because I thought I was done....had injured myself beyond repair. Only in my mid-40's did I discover that it wasn't so. And now I'm down once again, but I'm confident that I'll get things rolling again sooner than later. It'll have to be something physical, like this OA, that finally makes me have to give it up. As for now, I'm still just walking or walk/running. I've got a lot of weight to take off before I'm willing to subject my knees to the pounding of steady running. My buddy says I really should consider doing more in the pool...the idea sounds awful to me, though.
Always interesting discussion about diets. I know that I should care more, but I guess I just can't get myself too worked up about it. I'm one of those old school "colorful plate", mostly fresh, more fish and white than red, kind of eaters, but I also don't completely eschew processed stuff (moderation is the key?) I figure that so long as my blood work comes back in the normal range, I'll be OK.
Props to some nice Turkey Trots, loved reading all your reports. It was a pleasure to meet and greet Not Done Just Yet; his report was quite accurate as to the day and his performance. Sorry we didn't have more time to chat, but seems you were on a tight schedule and nice race, BTW.
Two weeks to Club XC in Pennsylvania. Hope those that are keying for this event get their last week of training in and are ready to roll. Hope to hear some more positive news regarding your all's racing and training. And I'm also grateful to hear from some of y'all that, like me, have been struggling...keep the faith!
All the Best!
Wow, some great discussion and race reports. Too much to keep up with.
lucKY: Thank you for keeping the thread alive all these years
TU: 3 easy on treadmill
TH: 5K race: 266th of 2373, 6th of 58 M60. 7:38 pace (7:40, 7:45, 7:35)
SA: 2 easy on treadmill, Hosting the Official Family Thanksgiving
SU: 4 easy, paved greenway
Had a challenging Thanksgiving 5K race. I was excited and, yes, thankful, to get to the starting line feeling 100%! It was neat to find that 58 of my 60-64yo brethren felt good enough to toe the line too.
I generally felt good but conditions were difficult with sustained 20 mph winds and 40+ mph gusts, 32 tight turns on a downtown course, and I stepped on an upright bolt that punctured my shoe and bruised my foot. The problem with being slow is you get swallowed up by the hoard and can’t run tangents, nor, apparently miss steel spikes in the road! Overall I was pleased considering the conditions and my moderate training.
I feel really good and don’t have any races planned until February of next year.
Have a great week folks!
congrats on fine race under challenging conditions -- steel spike in the road is really one too many.
Thanks everyone for kind comments on my ultramarathon from last weekend. Took it very easy this week, one day off entirely [which seemed really long -- what do people do all day who don't work out?], then gradually increasing cross-training. First run today an easy and heavy-legged 20 minutes.
interesting thread this week on continuing (or not) to train hard and race after many years. I'm the last one standing in my family of 4 brothers and a brother-in-law all active road racers in the 1970's. They're all my elders, so too soon to say I'm different, but what i observed was chronic injuries (N = 3) and just general loss of interest (N = 1).
I'm not embarrassed as such to be slower than before, more frustrated I guess particularly when drastic slowing occurs fro one year to the next, as my decline has been nonlinear to say the least. I can manage that, particularly by finding different goals, switching up what races I do each year, etc. I think the train hard/get fit/get injuried/rehab cycle is the more likely issue to bring me down eventually.
My hope (and expectation, based on previous racing lull late 20s to late 30s as i got my career and Dad life going) is that when regular racing is in rearview mirror I'll still enjoy casual running -- maybe go to parkruns regularly etc. You can get I think a high % of the fitness and fun and community while skipping some of the pain and competitive stress.
have a great week,
Dave
It has been several years since I decided to take control of my health. I do not trust or rely on the current dogma/standard of care. The knowledge I have gained which is not that much still empowers me to make better choices.
Best example:My A1Cs were OK..... 5.7
This was with me being Overweight 180lbs , Eating Std Amer Diet and Minimal exercise say 2 or 3 hours a week.
Improving to a Mediterranean Diet and lots of exercise 2 or 3 hours per day I improved to :
5.3 and just under 140 lbs
In both cases I was not by current standards pre diabetic or insulin resistant.
But I wanted hard data I wanted to understand how insulin worked along with glucose uptake and how fructose differs from glucose but most of all I felt like our standard of care was lacking. I slowly lost trust in the medical system. My lost faith began when I was 56. A dermatologist missed a skin cancer on the TIP of MY NOSE! In that case I had insisted on seeing someone else who immediately biopsied turned out to be a BCC. Left a marble sized crater on my nose. But I kinda let it go. Then 3 years later age 59 a very good Dermatologist found an SCC on my chest. Superficial so they just cut it out. A month later I noticed an aggressive growth at the edge of the excision . My Derm said she thought is was from the stitches. I insisted on a biopsy. She reluctantly took a biopsy. This turned out to be an INVASIVE AGGRESSIVE SCC. MOHS was successfully performed but that was it. I cleaned up my life style using traditional ideas. One thing I left out the only reason I did not take her opinion was because I had done tons of research online and knew the growth could be dangerous. I saved my own life by NOT relying on the expert.
Most likely your PCP's knowledge is out of date as well as being forced to practice assembly line medicine! The 15 or 30 minute visit.
Back to blood sugars and insulin resistance .....
I use this because so many people become more and more insulin resistant as they age. Half of people over 60 are IR.
A meter + 50 test strips will set you back 75 bucks or so.
Experiment around eating and fasting. Fasting blood glucose as well as the hours after eating are good ways to start.
Also try doing an Oral Glucose Tolerance Test at home. My at home OGTT is what made me finally accept that I was Insulin Resistant. My blood glucose hit 215 at one hour yet it fell to 116 by 2 hours. And that is the point where the knowledge I had gained left no doubt that I had a problem in the insulin pathway to activating glut4. Yea read all about glut4 google is your friend. BTW exercise also activates glut4 in muscle cells without insulin probably one of the main reasons exercise is so beneficial. But HIGH INSULIN LEVELS not just high glucose levels causes systemic damage to things like your arteries with affects your kidney function as well as other things.
Supplements.....
Big Pharma only cares about drugs that make them money so many of the cheap essential vitamins get little press time or study and lots of negative press.
One vitamin I believe is essential is K2.
But thee most essential vitamin is KNOWLEDGE and it does not come in a bottle ya gotta do the work!
Cold, rainy winter weather finally moved in here for Thanksgiving week, but with lots of free time I managed to put in a very solid week and mostly avoided getting rained on.
Monday: 10.0 miles very easy, first day back from a sore foot that caused me to skip my local turkey trot last Saturday. Felt not a twinge out of the foot and pronounced myself good to go.
Tues: 12.4 miles
Weds: 10.5 miles easy in scattered rain showers.
Thurs: 16.1 miles in 2:27 (9:08/mile pace). 40 degrees, damp and cloudy, but no rain. Felt very good.
Fri: 10.4 miles easy.
Sat: 16.1 miles in 2:29 (9:15/mile pace). About 60% of the same course as Thursday, just happened to come out exactly the same distance. Again 40 degrees, overcast and breezy, but missed the rain. Not fast, but it felt strong to the end.
Sun: 7.8 miles very easy in intermittent rain and wind.
83 miles for the week is pretty close to a record for me as a 55+ runner. Two 16-mile runs in three days was asking a lot of my bad heel and I was very happy at how well it held up.
Igy, congrats on your huge improvement over last year. You’ve got the trend going in the right direction, and now just have to keep it going!
Cush, good to hear from you again and I hope you can whip yourself into some approximation of what you consider acceptable shape in time for your key races. You are still faster than I can even imagine. A single mile in 5:27 was close to my limit at my best in my early 30s!
Not Done Just Yet, that’s an excellent turkey trot result to whip all of the 50+ guys in such a big race!
Muddy Girl, I think you just have to adopt the view that at least you’re still out there trying. I can get discouraged if I stop to dwell on the fact that I used to be able to run a full marathon at a pace that’s about 1:30/mile faster than my best 5K from this year. But I still enjoy running, and I still enjoy racing as hard as I can against the people with whom I’m competitive. That’s really all that matters.
Rtype, sounds like really tough race conditions! Glad to hear you felt good and I hope your bruised foot isn’t serious. The races in my area aren’t as big as yours but I do know what you mean about being swallowed up by the hordes when you’re not fast enough to get clear. I’m planning to run our local holiday-themed 5K in two weeks which normally draws 1000+ runners and I’m dreading the first 500 meters of dodging little kids running sideways, people sprinting 200 meters and then stopping, etc. At least I’m pretty confident that the course doesn’t have any metal spikes in the road.
Wishing good health and happy running to all.
I feel for the patients that don’t advocate for themselves or get lost in the bureaucracy. On the other hand professional advice should be weighed vis-a-vis the risk. Several years ago following chemotherapy a friend opted out of radiation therapy, unfortunately he is now on hospice with terminal colon cancer. Would the radiation have made a difference, who know? Now it is no longer a choice.
Lots of interesting perspective on the reasons we all are still training and racing when most of our peers have decided (or been forced) to give it up. For me I think the short version is first, I continue to truly enjoy the process of both training and racing, and second, I have been blessed with some decent genetics that make me halfway good at it and durable enough to continue doing it as I am a little more than a week away from my 70th birthday.
I accomplished exactly what I planned this week in preparation for Club XC. I got in 50 miles at an effort level that made me feel like I was recovering and getting some freshness back in my slightly over-trained and over-raced body. The plan for the next two weeks is 80% of that and then 60% of that, but it will be almost totally influenced by how I feel day to day. I'll do a little more if I feel good, and more likely, I'll do a little or a lot less if I don't feel fresh enough.
M- 7mi walk/run 12:41/mi
T- 8mi hills 9:14/mi
W- 7mi walk with strides
Th- 8mi hills 8:48/mi (5.5mi dry, last 2.5mi pouring rain)
F- 7mi walk with strides
S- 6mi walk/run 12:43/mi
Su- 7mi walk with strides
Good running all!