50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

amkelley wrote:

RF reader, nice training week. How did you feel during and after your 16.7 miler?

Thank you. It didn't feel easy, but not hard, either. It felt easier second time around a week later. And I have recovered better than I used to after 14-15 miles weeks earlier.

I missed posting last week for no good reason.

M: off.

T-W: 7 miles.

R: 9 miles. (From 5.6mph to 7.8mph.)

F-SA: 7 miles.

SU: 16.7 miles. (7:37 for the last mile.)

M: off.

T-W: 7 miles.

R: 8 miles. (From 5.6mph to 7.8mph.)

F-SA: 7 miles.

SU: 12.2 miles. (7:58-7:54-7:33 for the last three miles.)

So I started a three-week taper for the half marathon (on Dec. 7) , and will cut down a bit more volume this week.

Any Thankful Turkey Trotters planned for this week? Claiming mine at last Saturday's USATF Regional XC 8k. 5 laps of cross-country (+those damn haybales). Happy with another consistent year over year 31:43 Saturday; 31:41 same course in 2018. My buddy filmed me suffering past him each lap and man oh man was the audio ugly! Nice to evaluate the form too. Leaning forward due to weak hips and glutes I'm sure but not as bad as thought compared to looking at silhouette shadows over lots and lots of runs.

Happy Grateful Week with family, friends, and trotters y'all.

KP

[quote]dhaaga wrote:

The guy who finished second, Zach Bitter, had recently set a 100-mile world record on indoor track. That's the one i can't imagine mentally.

[quote]65 wrote:

Ugggghhhh, I've raced 100 miler dhaaga...16:40...on a 400 meter track...in the rain...the 'self talk' gets REAL interesting at around 85 miles.

Hope that you are recovering marvelously.

your pal,

MF

KPdx wrote:

Any Thankful Turkey Trotters planned for this week? Claiming mine at last Saturday's USATF Regional XC 8k. 5 laps of cross-country (+those damn haybales). Happy with another consistent year over year 31:43 Saturday; 31:41 same course in 2018. My buddy filmed me suffering past him each lap and man oh man was the audio ugly! Nice to evaluate the form too. Leaning forward due to weak hips and glutes I'm sure but not as bad as thought compared to looking at silhouette shadows over lots and lots of runs.

Happy Grateful Week with family, friends, and trotters y'all.

KP

I wonder if running too much volume as one ages exacerbates the form issue you highlighted. I certainly find myself sloppy from lack of recovery as I approach 70. I can hit a good daily volume, but stringing weekly higher mileage is a challenge, and question its value (at least personally).

Igy,

That is a good point referring to whether or not too much volume as we age might hurt our form and fitness. Every one has a sweet spot regarding the amount of volume, mileage, and effort our bodies can take before breakdown begins to occur. If we go to the well too many times it will run dry. The important thing is too listen to our bodies and do a little bit less than what we think we should do. Last week I took a day off. It was the worst day mentally of the week. I wanted to do another run but chose to rest my body. I know that in the long run I will benefit from taking a day off every week or so. Also as we age, we need to do more in order to keep the well running full. Me personally, I have not been doing any hard (anaerobic) workouts for some time. Those workouts just beat me down and make me slower. So I do a lot of high end aerobic stuff, like a fairly hard hilly 14 miler yesterday. I will be sure to follow up a workout like that with a day or two of easy running for recover. I also go to the gym 2-3 days a week and lift mostly lower body stuff and core. I feel this keeps my body stronger keeping my form what it needs to be to put less stress on my body which should cut down on injuries. I have a stretching routine after my runs. I take several vitamins and supplements such as extra calcium, magnesium, zinc, etc. I have a zig saw that I turned into a massager to keep my legs loose. I eat well keeping my weight down which decreases pounding on the body. I work on my form which is very important. So I would encourge everyone to find that sweet spot in terms of volume, and do workouts that will benefit you personally, not just following something you read out of an article. I think too many people train too fast, too much speed work, and not enough aerobic stuff. One last thing. If you are breaking down structually, there must be something wrong. Figure out what that is and take care of it. For example, when I started running again in August my hamstring was hurting bad. So I would take a few days off and try again. Same result. I decided to see a chiropracter/PT. They took an xray of my lower back. I had a vertibrae that was too closed thus pinching off a nerve causing pain in my hamstring. After 2-3 PT sessions the pain was gone. So don't accept injuries because we are getting old. Figure out what is going on and get on a good strenghening program. Happy Thanksgiving.

65,

Good points and I cannot argue with any of it. I do run quite a bit on the track, but the majority is sub-threshold. I could manage the volume through my early 60s, but seem to struggle with it today. I suspect most of the challenge lies with weighing 175 lbs where optimal weight is twenty pounds less. So the balance for me needs to be regained via cross training on the easy day, since I suspect running alone could increase the likely hood for injuries. Fortunately I have had a long stretch of uninterrupted training and can feel improved cardiovascular strength. I follow a similar routine of core, and do lift free weights regularly, but nothing heavy.

Best to you and your continued remarkable career.

Igy

Excellent insight to consider 65 & Igy. A new friend of mine said to me "slow down, or stay down". Simple, and useful, advice I have been practicing for about 3 months of consistent feeling good running health. The next step is to get some type of regular routine of core going. Thanksgiving gorge fest is a perfect motivator.

KPdx wrote:

A new friend of mine said to me "slow down, or stay down".

I haven't posted for a while mostly because I've had nothing to report. Just re-habing the achilles again. The past three months have been a lot of walking, some biking and I've recently added some very easy running with the occasional signs of life on my runs. Most paces are 8:00 to 8:30 pace. I think I've had a total of 5 miles under 7:00 pace during this time. So my expectations at todays Turkey Trot were very low!

But then race day magic happened... I went 6:39,6:30,6:29,6:36,6:24,6:15,:50 for a tad short (6.14) 39:43 10k. It was an all time PW but I'll gladly take it as it far exceeded my expectations! And its further proof you don't have to train fast to race fast. I have no idea how I was able to close with a 6:15.

Anyhow, time to eat, drink and be merry!

Have a good one,

Dave

Racerdb wrote:

But then race day magic happened... I went 6:39,6:30,6:29,6:36,6:24,6:15,:50 for a tad short (6.14) 39:43 10k. It was an all time PW but I'll gladly take it as it far exceeded my expectations! And its further proof you don't have to train fast to race fast. I have no idea how I was able to close with a 6:15.

Congratulations! It must be a great relief to realize you haven't lost all your speed despite not running fast in training for a long time. Hope the Achilles doesn't blow up again after the fast-paced run.

We're finally in a cold, rainy winter weather pattern here. It rained last night but I awoke to cloudy skies and 40 degrees, lots of puddles, but no rain. Decided to get it while the getting is good and loped through an easy 16.1 miles. Hardly a sign of human life out there between 6 and 8:30 am. Now I'm happy to kick back for a day of football and food.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

Ran the Turkey Day 5k in Boise. Probably the most competitive race in the area. Ran 27:17 officially for 6th 65-69. I was 13:10 at the half way point, and 26:56 for 3.1 on the GPS, so fell off the back. Time was 2:00+ faster than last year for same course and similar conditions. Legs were a little flat today.

Sometimes your strength is your strength

A huge drop off in training intensity and volume costs about 25 to 30 seconds per mile.

That is a good deal over the long haul!

I can relate last year I jogged 45 minutes a day at 10min per mile for 5 months with minimal I mean minimal fast stuff and ran 19:42 on a hard course then I did a bunch of fast stuff while keeping up the volume and only improved to 19:05 on a fast track under ideal conditions. That is probably less than 10 seconds considering conditions.

This year I was going to amp it up then my knees started hurting just a little bit and never while running so I went back to my strength doing just a little slogging 3 days a week. Now I also walk and row and lift and bike ride but all pretty easy stuff . So where does this leave me race wise? WAG 20 flat and about 6 flat;) OTOH my knees feel wonderful;)

I have given up (at least for now) on hard training but still consider myself a runner and will jump in a race for fun until I get the urge to jump off the cliff yet again.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Ran the Turkey Ran 27:17 officially for 6th 65-69. I was 13:10 at the half way point, and 26:56 for 3.1 on the GPS, so fell off the back.

Racerdb wrote:

But then race day magic happened... I went 6:39,6:30,6:29,6:36,6:24,6:15,:50 for a tad short (6.14) 39:43 10k. It was an all time PW but I'll gladly take it as it far exceeded my expectations!

Congrats! Some fine turkey day running, all things considered!

But, geez, am I in the only part of the country where road races are actually measured and certified?! I see this sort of reference all the time on LRC threads, and I don't understand why runners tolerate it.

Anyhoo, have a great Thanksgiving, everyone! Our bird is in the oven, and guests are arriving soon. Be well!

Happy Thanksgiving!

No running yet (other than two short attempts the other week, wasn't ready) but getting closer. Slowly increasing cross training with no ill effect. Should be running in a week or 10 days and see how that goes.

Regarding the discussion on miles. It comes down to finding what will work for you. I think my form is better at 60-61 than it was in my 40s and 50s (no longer focusing on XC skiing, when it took half the season to get back into the swing of it).

My training now is more like my early post-college years than 20s and 30s, and it seems more sustainable (latest injury aside). For my age it's pretty good mileage, not as high as some but enough to get that aerobic base. And enough workouts (consistently hitting those most weeks) to keep sharp for mid-range distances but not so much to burn out or get injured a lot.

On the other hand one of the big returnees to the (AG newb) runs all of 10-20 miles a week, all quality, and cross trains the rest of the time.

I'll rethink rest days once I get back into it, been at once every 10-15 the past couple of years, but the recent injury (Maybe) could have been held off with an extra day off here or there.

Have mapped out much of 2020, at least what I want to do race-wise and where I want to go with it.

Allen 1959.

The race I ran today is one of the more accurate. That said my watch was 27:20, at 3.1 26:56, clock at finish 26:52, and official 27:17. Watch and official difference gun versus chip times. So many races in our town are fund raisers (Fun Runs). As I noted back several months ago a very big corporate 5k was about 2.9 miles. And then the first results had 12 year olds running 12:00 or something ridiculous.

Igy

“Regarding the discussion on miles. It comes down to finding what will work for you.“

Of course this is correct. And, if you can train closer to what is traditional training for a younger person, so much the better.

For those of us who have been running since our youth, how many of our competitors back then are still running? Probably hardly none. Good for us to keep running and even racing. There is something special about us that keeps us going after so many years. What is it that keeps up motivated?

65 wrote:

For those of us who have been running since our youth, how many of our competitors back then are still running? Probably hardly none. Good for us to keep running and even racing. There is something special about us that keeps us going after so many years. What is it that keeps up motivated?

Earlier this month I went back to Oklahoma State for the Regional and a cross country team reunion. There were seven of us and I was the only one that wanted to run the new course. This group had a pretty good record in the mid-1970s and included an NCAA Champion. As far as I know I am the only one that competes on a regular basis. I feel fortunate to have both the health and drive to keep getting out.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

“Regarding the discussion on miles. It comes down to finding what will work for you.“

Of course this is correct. And, if you can train closer to what is traditional training for a younger person, so much the better.

]If you're 55 or older, who can accomplish "traditional training for a younger person" without getting Injured? I'm near 60 and pretty beat up from decades of competitive running.

In my 40s I could run high mileage (50+ mpw), twice-weekly speed workouts & race virtually year round. I experienced some minor inflammation-related chronic injuries that would heal up with some cross training and rest. I also lifted weights and did deep stretching (martial arts style from my Tae Kwon Do days in my earlier years). These were certainly the glory days for me - lots of hard training and exciting year round racing! ?

However, as soon as hit my 50s and over a period of about 5 yrs, I sustained not one but two acute tendon ruptures that were running related (ankle/PTT & knee/ACL). The joints involved have know progressed to OA and even with copious amounts of rehab, icing, cross training, etc., I'm pretty limited to fitness/recreation running barely 4 miles 3 times per week. Most of my fitness "fix" is now in the gym with spinning & weight lifting.

So, perhaps these older runners who can train like younger bucks are blessed with exceptional genetics and are built perfectly for distance running; very thin, small, lightweight, etc. (more along the lines of Whitlock & that 76 yr old ultramarathon champion Dag Aabye from Vancouver).

And with declining hormones at our age, I've known a few senior runners & cyclists over the many years at the gym I worked out at that went on TRT. They would tell me that their recovery from hard works improved dramatically and that they felt like they were back in their "20s." They also reported that their energy levels, metabolism, strength, etc. also improved exponentially (all from simple hormone replacement. ..wow). So, is hormone replacement therapy the answer for an aging, injured body that still wants to workout at a high level? ("Low-T" centers are cropping up all over America these days).

One thing is for certain, the human body inevitably breaks down from decades of competitive running, or any high-impact sport,for most. Nutrition, cross training, weight training, some supplements (e.g., glucosamine) can all help to a certain degree with chronic injuries but does little for serious acute injuries (tendon, ligament & muscle tears) and more advanced OA. And weight becomes a big issue as one gets older for a high-impact activity like running. If you're not built for running, and with age-related slowing of metabolism, it's not that easy to lose weight without literally starving yourself (which isn't good for older folks) or using weightloss supplements/drugs (it cracks me up when I hear these young bucks posting how us "old guys" just need to "eat a little less" and the weight will just "melt off" - they have no clue how metabolism significantly declines at age 50 or so. Lol).

Anyway, my two cents worth on an otherwise lousy Turkey Day. ?

Beaten Down Old Runner wrote:

I'm pretty limited to fitness/recreation running barely 4 miles 3 times per week. Most of my fitness "fix" is now in the gym with spinning & weight lifting.

....

Anyway, my two cents worth on an otherwise lousy Turkey Day. ?

On the bright side, you're doing better than I am. I recently attempted 4 miles three times a week, but couldn't maintain it. The resulting pain interfered with my work and kept me awake at night. I'm only 60, and was still running well at 58 and for a few months after turning 59. Hope the rest of your day went well.