50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Congrats, that's an A result in my book. Have to account for the conditions!

*Week 437*

Salutations, 50+ers! First off, nice race report Dave Waddles! Kudos! That's a very nice result! Also, looking forward to hearing how amkelley's race goes today.....best of luck to you!

Still not much to report as I continue mostly walking. On the track the last few weeks I've been running the straights and walking the turns. Typically do that x16 with walking warm-up/cool-down. The knee has tolerated that pretty well with a slight stiffness the next morning, but it does loosen up. With the time change, we won't be doing track workouts in the evening over the winter, so I plan to switch over to walking hills, hopefully building up some strength in the knee before trying to start back to running. As you may recall, last fall about this time, I'd gotten some really nasty bug that wiped me out for a good 3 months, hopefully this year won't see a repeat of the dismal episode. If all goes well, by mid-winter, we'll be back to some semblance of running.....and maybe spring will bring a fresh start.

Proud of my nephew for taking 2nd place in D2 of the state championships up in Wisconsin. He's following in the footsteps of his dad, and is running a good 5-6s/mi faster than I ever ran back in the day.....and he's still just a Junior.

That's it from me; hope you've had a good week, and look forward to reading your reports.

Good luck to all that are running NYCM today.

All the Best!

Good morning, congratulations and good luck to the marathons completed and in progress. Wrapping up the fall yard/house prep this week. Getting back into the training routine. Completed 32 Igy miles with two hard days, two doubles, one day of core and weights. The plan is to bump it up a bit next week.

Have a productive week.

Igy

Dave Waddles: Congrats! You got a lotta miles left on those legs. Glad you found running.

TU: 4 easy road, still sore from SAT race

TH: 4, 2 easy road, 2 easy treadmill as storms hit

SA: 4 with 3 @ 7:35 pace

SU: 4 medium hard at 3900 feet

It was a good week where I was surprised to still be a bit sore from the race last week. Seems one hard run per week is about all I can “digest”. No complaints otherwise.

Have a good one folks!

I’m back on the injured list. ☹️ Monday’s run was going fine, except for some overall fatigue, until there was some sudden tightness in the left groin area. I was only a few feet from home, so I walked it in from there and didn’t think of it again until my next run 48 hours later. That one started well, but the tightness resurfaced after only a few minutes. I slowed down but continued to run briefly while having a mental debate with myself about how to deal with this situation. A sudden “pop” ended the debate and I limped home. The groin was quite sore for the next 24 hours. It has calmed down, but is still an issue. I’ve moved from ice to heat and it seems to be responding. Walked a couple of miles this morning without issue, so hopefully this will be better sooner rather than later. But I am well aware of the longevity of this kind of injury, so I will be proceeding cautiously. Sigh.

Best to most.

Today's attempted marathon ended very early in a disastrous DNF and I have no idea what went wrong. I felt healthy and well rested on race morning. At the start of the race the conditions were perfect, 45 degrees and dry with no wind. Only about 400 people in the full marathon which started all by itself, so no crowding at the start, no lines for the porta-potties, etc. Perfect conditions. I went out with the 3:55 pacer and within 6-7 miles I knew that I was running too hard to finish a marathon. I kept going until 10 miles, then gave up and walked/jogged another 6-7 miles to reach my car by the shortest route. No obvious injury; my right knee and hip ached a bit but nothing limiting. My stomach was a little unhappy about the bread with honey I'd eaten 2.5 hours before the start (I normally run on an empty stomach, but have experimented with occasionally eating the same thing right before a run) but that wasn't stopping me. I just basically felt exhausted, and could not muster the leg strength needed to push myself off the ground.

Perhaps a logical conclusion is that I cannot run a marathon at 4-hour pace. But I did three 21-22 mile runs in training over the past 7 weeks at about 4:05 marathon pace. Today I was running way slower than my half-marathon race pace and I couldn't even make it out to the half-marathon point. I don't know what happened.

Anyway, I guess I'm done with attempting marathons for the near future. It's too many eggs in one basket, and too disappointing when after all that buildup it doesn't work. A bad 10K or half-marathon is a lot easier to shake off because you have so much less invested.

I need a different sport, but running is the only thing I've ever been better than mediocre at.

L2B straights and curves one of my favorites

AMK man I was really pulling for ya! I even checked results a few times saw a half at 2:01.xx. Running as you know is way more than racing or fast times it is a defining element of who we are . We are runners!

OldFarte Ouch when it rains it pours hope this is not too bad.

Dave W Nice very Nice With 2 years your progression suggests a sub 3 attempt in the next year or so?

Well Call me Keto basically just tossing training ideas around but am putting in some lsd with a little lt and some hard stuff but not much.

Easy to find the thread sub 20 or bust:

SprintGeezer just ran an 18:52 off some unconventional training kinda long thread so I cut out a few of his training posts:

For convenience, I will say I’m at 22 mins, meaning 120 seconds away. Instead of just doofus base stuff, I’m now going to try something specific to pick off those 120 seconds.

Because it’s so specific a goal, I am going to try a program that is very precise, so that I can get precise feedback on progress (if there is any), and for this, I will use the treadmill.

I find treadmill running harder than running outside, so I will have some cushion as a result.

If 9.8mph is 20:00 pace, I will use 10mph as my speed, giving a slight bit more cushion. I’m going to do my possibly ridiculous interval program, 1-min run, 1-min slow jog, and start the speed up 10 seconds early because IIRC it takes the mill about 10 seconds to come up to speed.

If that feels ok, I will try to decrease the slow jog period by 2 seconds each workout. If I begin to fail, I will reduce by only 1 second. If I can’t maintain a 1-second improvement, I will be consistent for no more than 4 or 5 workouts before declaring failure and switching to the longer and slower approach.

I plan to do this workout 2x per week, for adequate rest. I should be ok, as I can do a bunch of these repeats at 12mph, but we will see how taxing it is.

Did 20:00 pace intervals on the treadmill, 1 min on, 1 min off, each fast speed entered 10 secs before the minute so that max speed was hit on the minute. Did 10 repeats with 10 jogs for 20 mins total. HR 160 at the end of last fast interval.

Then did 40 mins at 6mph and 0% grade, because I didn’t feel like I had worked out. HR about 150 throughout.

Back on the mill.

July

Fast intervals started at 48 seconds, felt fine, HR only around 155 at the end.

Then did 40 mins at 6mph, HR 148 at the end.

Today felt easy. It is super hot and humid innhere, just like I like it! I hardly drank anything, maybe 300 ml, and felt fine. Breathing felt relly easy, deep and slow the whole time. Maybe I am actually slowly building aerobic capacity, maybe I was just super-fatugued for my previous workout, or maybe a bit of both.

Looking forward to starting on 1:46 next workout, maybe I will do 1:45 instead.

24 seconds, HR 140. Felt easy! Was nice and hot and humid in the room, maybe 81 degrees.

oct 17 2019

Today, 5pm workout. 21 seconds, HR156–then 40 mins at 6-7mph, HR 141.

oct 28 2019 18:52

amkelley wrote:

Today's attempted marathon ended very early in a disastrous DNF and I have no idea what went wrong.

Sorry to read this, was very much hoping you'd have great success today. Best wishes going forward.

Amkelley,

My thoughts, one of your initial observations is correct, in that training for a marathon is putting a lot of eggs in one basket. Of course that is true at 30 years of age as it is at 60. The difference is simply the physical as well as emotional toll of both success and failure. Carry this thought a little further, at 60 you are asking yourself to be out there on race day 25% longer than when you were half that age. The same holds true in the 20 mile training runs required to get fit enough to tackle your goal. So give yourself some credit and a pat on the back for committing to such a difficult challenge, at any age. You could rest a bit, enter another marathon next month, and surprise yourself.

Igy

I'm sorry this didn't go better for you. Sounded as if your training had gone really well. It's frustrating, but sometimes we just don't have good days. Don't know that it was particularly scientific, but i always resonated to the 70's-era concept of one's "biorhythmn" -- have definitely had days that just seemed like "triple-low" for no good reason. It's easier when you have one thing you can point to a la "I went out too fast" or "my hamstring wasn't fully recovered". In any case, best wishes for swift recovery.

My week was fine, culminating in exhausting back to back long runs as recommended in a couple of ultra sites/books i've seen:

M 1:20

tu 1:30 with total of 20:00 hard uphill segments on grass, dodging off-leash dogs in park

W 1:20

Th 30:00

F 1:50 double

Sa 3:30 incl. parkrun about an hour in (short course, maybe 3 miles) 22:42 [11th OA, 1st AG]

Su 4:30, mostly on trails -- several stumbles, no falls, very slow

have a great week,

Dave

M60, 5'11", 176 lbs

Week ending Nov 3

M - Off

T - Off

W - 4.0 miles (8:20, 8:09, 7:47, 7:34)

Th - Off

F - Off

Sa - Off

Su - 5.0 miles @ 8:54/mi

TOTAL : 9.0 MILES

Wednesday was a steady, hard effort. Natural progression. Tonight was hard for first half, easier second half, although splits were even, start to finish.

Knees, right hamstring, right hip still painful (hip is OK during runs, unless I pivot on it).

At my annual checkup, my primary doctor confirmed that there are no good therapies or surgeries to address my knee problems. He also said the X-ray showed considerable bone loss on the back side of the patella.

Still gonna target a 5K on November 16. Looking to break 25:00. Hope to lose a few pounds before then.

Bummer, Amkelley. I can't imagine being able to run a road marathon now.

I am halfway through a 12 week training plan for xc. My first pre-training 6k was a disaster. I had figured that I would be faster than last year since I finally had about 9 months of continuous training - but no, I ran almost a minute slower and I was crushed.

So, new plan, which I actually started a couple weeks earlier in order to give myself more recovery between hard efforts. For this cycle, I am increasing my mileage from just about 40 to a max of 55, in 6 days of running, no doubles. I am doing one hard workout (VO2max) a week, occasionally adding short hills and tempo and doing a weekly "long" run which is only 10-11 miles.

I'm terrified of VO2max work, so I begged two of my old training partners to help me and it's been a good thing. Not only do we really enjoy running together, but I push myself *much* harder and it's easier with help. I will run my only tuneup race next week and we will see how it goes.

The training plan allows me one day off (to do my strength/weights/PT) and one recovery day, but with a long run of only 11 miles, that means a LOT of 8-9 miler during the week. Now that we've switched back from DST, I am going to see if I can maybe do some runs before work but it is utterly depressing to face more than 90 minutes of running in the dark. There's just so much "Nike berm" a person can take.

I was thinking that because I am so much slower, it takes me the same amount of time to run 50+ miles as it did to run 70+ miles when I was younger. That's a lot of time - like an extra 2.5 hours!. I had thought that I should keep the duration of the run the same, but when I was younger and running an hour a day (except for the long run), I was covering 8 miles - and now, I was running only 6. The result was that I was NOT getting any fitter or faster. Increasing the mileage has been hard, but it's only for a few weeks and I think in order to improve, I have to push the envelope a bit.

I hope this works. So, far not injured, so that hour a week I spend on the "other" stuff, has been helping.

Anyone hear from CoyoteM? Looking at the splits from the 15k, it looks like he got injured. :(

MG

Amkelley, sorry to hear it was not your day. As my brother sometimes says, "if you step up to the plate often enough, occasionally you get hit in the head by a fastball." (the opposite of "if you step up to the plate often enough, occasionally you hit a home run.") One of the realities that I have had to reconcile myself to as I rapidly close in on turning 70 is that the disparity between the good days and bad days significantly expands. I remember that up until my early 60s I could predict my race pace within a couple of seconds from my workouts. Then, suddenly, the difference between a good race and a bad race became 20-30 seconds per mile. It is just one more of those challenges that aging brings to racing. I have no doubt that you have plenty of good races in your future. The process never gets easier, which is one of the things that makes it interesting. Take some time to recover and contemplate what you want to do next with your running. I always make the irrational assumption that my next race is going to be my big breakthrough race where everything comes together and I surprise myself and everyone else with how good my performance is. Enjoy the process and the journey.

P.S. Currently doing serious VO2 max training, otherwise known as thoroughly enjoying that both my sons are back in town for a couple of weeks and dragging me around at paces I barely can handle. I couldn't be happier than running with them.

Completed day 3 of 4 at 4 Peaks this morning.

Day 1 was solid. I think 1 minute slower than last year. I lost time early stuck behind slower runners on the single track. 1.40 for 10 technical kms and over a km of vertical gain.

Day 2 solid again. Wild weather meant finishing at the hut 1.5 km from the summit.

1.38 for similar distance and vert as the previous day.

Day 3. Thought it was bad but looks to be my fastest for a few years. Track was non existant for a couple of kms due to overgrowth. Probably cost everyone some minutes. My climbing was solid. 2.33 for a technical 15 kms and 1400 of vert.

Day 4 will test me . Mystic has a great first few kms of climbing, hitting about 40% gradient in places. My concern will be how my dodgy leg goes on the descents. It is the only one that finishes back where it starts.

Allen1959 wrote:

M60, 5'11", 176 lbs

Week ending Nov 3

M - Off

T - Off

W - 4.0 miles (8:20, 8:09, 7:47, 7:34)

Th - Off

F - Off

Sa - Off

Su - 5.0 miles @ 8:54/mi

TOTAL : 9.0 MILES

Wednesday was a steady, hard effort. Natural progression. Tonight was hard for first half, easier second half, although splits were even, start to finish.

Knees, right hamstring, right hip still painful (hip is OK during runs, unless I pivot on it).

At my annual checkup, my primary doctor confirmed that there are no good therapies or surgeries to address my knee problems. He also said the X-ray showed considerable bone loss on the back side of the patella.

Still gonna target a 5K on November 16. Looking to break 25:00. Hope to lose a few pounds before then.

IMO, the 7:34 is not bad at all for your size and age. I gained a few pounds lately weighing in at 171 on a 5-6 frame (I should probably cut back a little on the heavy weight lifting but some of those fellow muscular old bucks at the gym inspire me too much. Lol.). I ran my usual Sunday 3 miler with a 1 mile track TT. First 3 miles averaged ~9:00 with the TT barely at 7:45 - so you got me there.

I think your times & milage are impressive given your age, weight and the major knee injury. Many guys would have given up and thrown in the towel by now. About 20 yrs ago or so, I trained with, and raced against a few big hardcore runners who were around 5-10/5-11 and easily 175+. Now in their late 50s/early 60s none of them are running anymore because of years of too many chronic injuries and OA. Most have transitioned to cycling with the exception of one who race walks in our master club. So, keep up the good work!

Ref the bone loss on the posterior part of the patella - is your doctor diagnosing it as patellofemoral arthritis by chance? If so, there is some pretty good conservative therapy that may help. I know a few guys & gals in our club that are running on mild patellofemoral arthritis - limited mileage & slower paces but still running regularly nonetheless.

Stocky Old Runner wrote:

Ref the bone loss on the posterior part of the patella - is your doctor diagnosing it as patellofemoral arthritis by chance? If so, there is some pretty good conservative therapy that may help. I know a few guys & gals in our club that are running on mild patellofemoral arthritis - limited mileage & slower paces but still running regularly nonetheless.

Thanks for that link. My doctor didn't specifically define the diagnosis. I only had X-rays done, so soft tissue doesn't show. There is decent separation between bones, so I am assuming cartilage is largely OK.

Meanwhile, I've adjusted my mindset away from "competition," in favor of "occasional participation."

During the summer, strategic use of ibuprofen allowed enough training to run 21:07 for 5K -- 6:48/mi -- nine weeks ago. That seemed crazy slow at the time, nearly 2 minutes slower than the year before. But it's all relative. Sub-25 is the goal 12 days from now.

MG Nice to hear your training is on the uptick. CM posted this on the other weekly thread

S - 10.3 with 15K race, but only raced to about 6.7 miles, after that had to walk and jog back in because of the injury (SI joint). First mile was okay, 2-4 or 5 were off by 10-15 seconds a mile compared to last year (but it felt like I was pushing just as hard). Wheels started coming off on the 6th mile a downhill in 6:40 (compared to 5:50 last year). I made it to 6.7 before having to stop and walk-jog the rest of the way in. Somewhat better now than over the weekend, but not running yet and it might be a few weeks or months before I'm able to do so. Following up with doctor visits to get a diagnosis and start working on a treatment plan.

Su - 0, and hobbled

Coming to your standard of care in the near future:

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Musk's self driving cars are based upon AI as the miles accumulate the BETTER the AI gets.

So apply this AI Learning to YOUR HEALTH! Yes it is gonna happen sooner than you might think.

Current PCP's are at best Jon Henry and at worst Jon Don't GAF. The AI machine is gonna redefine what and how a PCP makes a buck.

Self Driving Cars need real time data to make good decisions.

Health AI for prevention,diagnostics, treatment and all the other stuff need YOUR DATA to include genetics, biomarkers current diet lifestyle and and other tests radiography past illnesses lifestyles and in your own words how you feel

The Comprehensive Health AI system goes to work digesting all of this which your PCP as well even with tons of time which we all know they do not have.

The outcome is AMAZING. Cheap Comprehensive Reliable without going anywhere so here we go!

This is a VERY crude example

https://www.mdedge.com/familymedicine/article/208541/heart-failure/machine-learning-derived-risk-score-predicts-heart?channel=205