50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

I spent my winter racing 30 secs a km slower than what should be achievable times. Mostly just hitting 30 ish kms per week but with xt and lots of walking. Samsung has me usually hitting 20000 plus steps most non running days. I sometimes jog those walks at ridiculously slow speeds.

My training plan post 4 Peaks will probably change. Maybe something along thes lines.

40 min kayak 50 min bike monday and friday.

3 days of 30 min easy hilly trails, steep technical running doesn't hurt me 'cause it is so slow. 50 min bike rides.

Weekend. Either racing on one or both days or just doing fun adventures in the bush up to maybe 90 minutes long.

Mix in lots of walking, strength exercises, some indoor rowing (good for me but bats#it boring).

I reckon this will keep me fit and healthy with minimum injury risk. Nope not gonna be running the sub 20 5K races I may have the ability to run if the bod would cooperate. Not gonna be running any marathons. But I will just turn up and race in local club events and "take my medicine" on raceday.

I suppose one can “swing for the fences” as they say in American baseball. But another perhaps more reasonable plan is to stay in the game for longer. So some compromise is not necessarily a bad thing, and maybe even a wise thing.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

“Allen1959: I honestly believe you can get better. Remember the great Ed Whitlock would take a whole year off at a time and then come back and set more world records!”

Believe that as well. Perhaps not marathoning, which is not so bad.

Ed would "take a whole year off at a time?" Just from running I take it? Did he cross train and maybe strength train during the time off? Don't tell me he just sat around and didn't anything for a whole year?

I don't think it's a good idea at our age to take a whole year or any significant amount time off from running and not do any physical activity. Non-weightbearing cardio, strength training, yoga, swimming, etc. are all great activities to keep physically fit during downtime from running.

In fact, I've got a friend in his 60s who shuts down running in the winter season from about late November (after the Turkey trots) through early March. All he does during the winter downtime is non-weightbearing cardio, lots of strength training and HIIT workouts in the pool. He says it refreshes him for spring running season and lets some of nagging chronic injuries heal up sufficiently. The guy is hardly ever injured during the summer race season and can get up 40+ mpw. It sounds like a great idea for some us old bucks with chronic injuries but I don't think I could take 4 or so months completely off from running - I'd be tempted too often to run outside on all these unseasonably warm winter days we get a lot lately where I live at.

Igy I enjoy running for the sake of it. Going for a run in the bush is more important to me than what I can run for 5k. So my goal is to try and maintain the ability to do that.

I enjoy the grunt of racing and hope to be able to continue to race for a long time yet. Again being able to just get out and go head to head with some others is more important than the actual outcome.

Pete on a mobile wrote:

I don't think it's a good idea at our age to take a whole year or any significant amount time off from running and not do any physical activity. Non-weightbearing cardio, strength training, yoga, swimming, etc. are all great activities to keep physically fit during downtime from running.

This gives me the opportunity to quote one of my favorite Ed threads. Every word it worth reading. Yeah, he did take huge swaths off and came back. I'm sure he would have agreed it's not a good idea to take a whole year off but he often repeated he did not recommend training like he did.

I believe it was about the 7th page of the thread where he references HOW he cam back again and again.

He was such a humble and modest hero. He had much to teach then, and now.

off for many yrs making comeback at 60, maybe run some masters track next yr?

Trying to get some mileage this fall and lose 20lbs. Last week M- 5.5mi @10, T- 5mi+10x200m hills, W off, Th- 6x200 intervals+4mi, Fr- 3mi easy, S- 9.5mi@10, S- cycle, stretch, weights. This week same just replace tue with 6mi w/4x7 minute intervals and maybe 12 on sunday? what do you guys think?

socalcush -- that's an amazing streak, in fact, they all are!

amkelly -- good luck Sunday! Hopefully the temps will be a little lower than the current forecast. Also, it's funny how you can (usually) go faster for longer on race day than during the build, isn't it?

KPdx -- nice race -- agreed on the weight.

old guy II -- nice XC race, impressive.

Charlie -- 10% grade, ouch

Rtype -- that's about where I think I'm at for the 5k and I'm ten years younger. Great job!

M50, 6'1", 190 pounds

M - 8.05 miles solo (8:44, 8:55, 8:46, 8:50, 8:48, 8:41, 8:42, 8:26), Nike Zoom Fly Flyknit

T - AM: 4.36 miles w/friend (10:30, 9:56, 9:12, 9:31, 0.36 @ 8:12), Nike Pegasus 35; PM: 2.50 treadmill @ 9:37 pace Altra Escalante Racer

W - 4.75 w/friends who were flying out later that day for the Dublin Marathon (10:33, 10:07, 9:46, 9:33, 0.75 @ 9:25 pace), Nike Pegasus 35

Th - off

F - 4.02 w/friend (10:30, 10:19, 9:54, 9:04), Hoka One One Clifton 4

Sa - 8.27 w/friend (10:21, 10:20, 9:59, 9:37, 9:25, 9:10, 9:07, 8:18, 0.27 @ 8:08 pace), Nike Pegasus 35

Sun - 8.55 solo (9:13, 8:59, 9:02, 8:56, 8:43, 8:30, 8:28, 8:23, 0.55 @ 7:52 pace), Hoka One One Clifton 4

Sometime this weekend I need to get a 26.2 run in for a NYRR virtual event -- doing so gets me a guaranteed entry into next year's NYC Marathon. I'm toying with how to do it, maybe 26 times 1k @ ~8:45 pace, easy jog recovery until the next mile.

This morning I applied for a guaranteed entry into next year's Chicago Marathon. Between Chicago and New York, along with a June half in Chicago and maybe an early May half (local) my event schedule for 2020 is just about set already.

flyingfrog wrote:

off for many yrs making comeback at 60, maybe run some masters track next yr?

Trying to get some mileage this fall and lose 20lbs. Last week M- 5.5mi @10, T- 5mi+10x200m hills, W off, Th- 6x200 intervals+4mi, Fr- 3mi easy, S- 9.5mi@10, S- cycle, stretch, weights. This week same just replace tue with 6mi w/4x7 minute intervals and maybe 12 on sunday? what do you guys think?

flying frog,

Seems good to me. I would classify intervals at about 5k pace. While building I would lean slower and longer with tempo or half marathon paced runs: 800m-3,200m distances for a total of 3-4 miles with 1 to 2 minute rest between. I think you might find this a good way to build strength and save the intervals for race prep.

Igy

The discussions about the tradeoff between just doing enough to be able to keep running versus trying to run the best you can have a lot of resonance for me. I quit trying to do marathons in 2004 because I kept getting injured in training. I found I could train fairly effectively for races up to the half-marathon distance with only occasional injuries, so for 15 years that's what I did. But when I turned 60 I got this wild idea about doing a marathon again as a sort of bucket-list thing, even with a chronic Achilles tendonosis. Remarkably, I managed to make it to the starting line in March basically healthy, then screwed up the pacing and finished, but not within my goal time. Then picked completely the wrong course for my second attempt in July and DNF'd. If I don't make my 4-hour goal next weekend I need to seriously reconsider this.

Allen1959, what you're going through sounds awful. Perhaps, as some suggest, a complete break from running for a longer time would help. I do agree that doing nothing at all sounds like a very bad idea particularly at 50+. Does your knee bother you on the bike? I'm really thankful that I've never had a running injury that kept me off the bike for very long, so I've never badly lost general fitness while recovering from an injury.

dhaaga, 4 hours is a long time for a training run even if you're going easy and taking the occasional walking break through or around an obstacle! How long until your race?

Today it felt like winter here. The official low as 32 degrees and it was long sleeves and gloves for the first time this year. But it's dry and brilliantly sunny outside, and the high is supposed to reach 70 today, with a gradual warming trend into the weekend. I think I'll have to start my marathon at sunrise wearing a T-shirt over a sports bra and dump the T-shirt 5 or 10 miles into the race.

Right now I'm just hoping no new wildfires pop up near the race site and/or the wind doesn't blow in the wrong direction.

Go where your passion is amkelley. This morning it was 21 degrees at 5:30 am. We headed into the foothills to run 7 miles with some faster 1200 meter runs on a loop. Headlamps and bundled up. We saw fewer people out for sure. Wednesday is predicted to be 15 degrees, so getting an earlier winter this week, but no fires. I heard MikeF was evacuated by the way. The area of my childhood home surprisingly faced the same. Nothing like this happened in the 47 years our family lived there.

4 weeks [11/23]. planning back to back long runs this coming weekend, then starting to taper.

good luck in the marathon!

Dave

[quote]amkelley wrote:

dhaaga, 4 hours is a long time for a training run even if you're going easy and taking the occasional walking break through or around an obstacle! How long until your race?

amkelley wrote:

The discussions about the tradeoff between just doing enough to be able to keep running versus trying to run the best you can have a lot of resonance for me.

I know it seems I’m totally on board with the “just do enough to keep running” side of the argument but I’m really not. I’m all for “going for it” but with some caveats. We all know for a danged fact that if we go all in the risks of injury go sky high. BUT, how injured? If it’s something you can recover from then maybe, just maybe it’s worth it. Maybe you need a tiny meniscus repair in your knee? That’s not too bad. But, what if it’s a tendon replacement? Surgeons will tell you once you have some major surgery it remains a focus-point of failure in the future. How about getting your foot rebuilt? A plate or a screw? No surgeon will guarantee those will last, especially if you continue to run.

I know several prominent runners who have had ablations done to their heart to correct exercise-induced arrhythmia. I think that’s not sustainable either. I can look at the HR’s of these runners’ on Strava and see what the surgeon set as the “set point” for their max. Very interesting.

I guess quite a bit of it is personality. How’s your pain threshold? How many years are you willing to suffer before throwing in the towel? And then, will it mean the end of all running for you? Did you blow it so bad you can never run again?

It gets even harder if you are REALLY GOOD. You have a rep, and, understandably, a lot of your self-esteem is built on being really good. I would not know, but I’m guessing that’s really hard to walk away from.

Others argue we are stupid for hammering it at this age since we get no financial rewards, or college scholarships. Well, for most of us, money is not the issue. It’s a demographic fact that masters runners aint poor. I ran for college money in 1979…that was about the last time I was that motivated to run.

Personally, my body has made it clear I cannot "go for it". I get injured far too easily....and....frankly, I'm an OK runner, but never a great runner. So it's easier for me to ease back. I'm never going to be a world-beater and I'm OK with that.

Anyway, that’s my two centavos. As usual, not a simple delineation.

The longest I have run is 3 hours 40 min in a marathon race. If I continue to race marathon into old age, I will eventually hit the 4 hours mark. But I am not sure if I keep racing marathon at that point. The longest I have run in training is about 3:10 for 22 miles.

M: off.

T-W: 6 miles.

R: 7 miles.

F-SA: 6 miles.

SU: 12.2 miles.

This was a "cut back" week for me (43.3 miles down from 51.5 in the previous week.) The "long run" (everything is relative, so 12 miles in this context is "long") felt easy starting with 8:58 for the first mile, and finishing with 7:59-7:44 for the last two miles. It is amazing that the same pace feels easier on the road. I was pushing hard to hit 7.5 miles / hr on the treadmill. 7:59 in the penultimate mile felt fairly comfortable.

Risk of damaging my health so I can run fast seems INSANE!

But can you have your cake and eat it too? Nope!

So pick your fights carefully, savor every bite , preserve not but persevere indeed.

I always enjoy the NRA bumper sticker

"I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands"

Becomes

"I'll give you my RUNNING when you pry it from my cold, dead hands" mixed metaphors are enjoyable

But maximizing health maximizes your RunSpan....

InsulinIQ a present from me to you.

https://youtu.be/ORchh8kd57A

This has me pumped up like I ran an excellent workout

Blood is the life blood of life

a1c progression

5.7 SAD standard american diet late fifties

5.5 Mediterranean Diet with cheat days 60

5.3 Timer restricted eating and somewhat low carb still cheat days on the carbs 62

5.0 After ONE month of Keto plus the FMD( fasting mimicking diet) 63

Since a1c measure is influenced by 90 days of eating mine should return to normal which is below 5. Oh but the ADA says 5.3 is ok baloney total baloney under 5 is where you want to be.

Anecdotally I do several glucose and ketone measures daily which require a blood sample . A lancing device with a fine needle is used to break open a capillary. Well my blood was think and dark when it used to be light and thin. Once again my blood is light and thin not sludgy .

And last but not least....Blood Type Diets I am a type O and have been cranking up the red meat no grains and fish feel Great!

https://www.webmd.com/diet/features/food-for-your-blood#2

How common is warm knees in older runners after a workout

I'm guessing alcohol doesn't help. I'm a big drinker

Mopac wrote:

Igy I enjoy running for the sake of it. Going for a run in the bush is more important to me than what I can run for 5k. So my goal is to try and maintain the ability to do that.

I enjoy the grunt of racing and hope to be able to continue to race for a long time yet. Again being able to just get out and go head to head with some others is more important than the actual outcome.

Absolutely agree Mopac. The benchmark of a race can be a motivating factor. Trying to outrace father time.

Yesterday Nov.1, marked 2 years since I started running at the age of 53.I didn't run in H.S. or college so it has been a completely new journey for me.So far I have run 4882 miles and am really enjoying the running community which I have found to be both fun and very supportive.

I've been meaning to post my race report from Oct.6 of this year so here it goes.This was the 3rd marathon I started and the same one I ran last year,which was my first.Last years time was 3:23:46 which exceeded my expectations going into the race.My 2nd attempt came in the spring and ended at mile 17 due to a grade 1 tear/strain of my hamstring.I was pretty confident I was in 3:15-3:20 shape but an almost effortless,fast 20 miler 3 weeks before the race tempted me into shooting for a 3:10.Weather was great with the small caveat,wind was supposed to be a crosswind for the race but turned into a quartering/full headwind @15-20 mph.Race began and I felt quite comfortable with the pace but did notice my HR @ 3 miles had already pushed into the 85% range when it would normally be at 78-80%.nonetheless the pace still felt doable.Made it to the half in 1:34:20 and was feeling like I was pushing a bit.At mile 16 I made the decision to drop off the pace as my HR was now consistently @87-88% and I knew I would probably blow up if I pushed through 20 at this pace.Mile 20 passed at 2:25:12 and I took solace in the fact I could still run 3:15 if I could Churn out 6 more 8 min miles.Mile 23 of the course you run a long sweeping hill that parallels lake Michigan something I was really looking forward to, but also found that the wind was now a full head wind which ran unabated across the lake At 20-25 mph.The wheels had not fallen off but the lugnuts were loose.Tank was empty but knew I would be able to finish.Last obstacle was about 200 yards of water 3-5 inches deep at the end of mile 25 due to flooding which had occurred over the last few days.Gave it all I had and crossed the line at 3:13:01.A plan B result but an A+ effort, so overall quite pleased.

Regards,David

Dave Waddles, congratulations on an excellent marathon in what sounds like really tough conditions! You must be very pleased.

I'm running mine tomorrow, and will be happy to get within 45 minutes of your time. The main concern is the weather. It's supposed to be in the mid to upper 60s by the time I finish, with bright sunshine. During the past seven weeks I've done long runs of 21, 22, and 22 miles, but always ending much earlier in the morning in cooler conditions. I'm afraid I'm going to melt in the last hour of the race. At least I won't have to worry about getting chilled after the finish...