The Ingebrigtsen's prove that the East African 'natural born runner' superiority is a myth. Here's why.

Racing only the 5k won't pay the bills, given the scarcity and the pain on the body. Where's the 1500m even allows you to train afterwards, race every couple of days or do an 800m. You are right, there is way more money on the roads unless you're winning multiple golds on the track and are marketable. Boring Berian's contract with Nike looked pretty cut throat.

Coevett wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

LOL - I wasn't surprised by this at all. Same old (a la Europeans clean, Africans dirty), full of unlikely assumptions and bold lies, albeit not as crude ones as usually.

Yes, it is funny isn't it Observski? I make exactly the same points I've made for the last 3 years here, in intentionally sloppy English under another name, and some here think it can't possibly have been the 'racist' Coevett (btw, the idea that I was racist for attributing the dominance of the East Africans to doping originated with you).

That’s pathetic. No wonder you have a reputation as a liar.

ex-runner wrote:

People remember. Nothing faster than 3:33-3:35 over the next few years you said

You really are a moron. First you say I claimed that 'no human can run faster than 3:33 -3:35 because that is the clean human limit', then you link to an old thread in which some anonymous troll claims that in another thread I'd claimed that Kenyans would soon be running 3:33 - 3:35 at best.

Well the likes of Elijah Manangoi are now running 3:33 at best after boasting of running 3:24/3:25 in Monaco. Kenyans certainly are slowing down aside from potato Tim, who is still slower than the Manangoi's friend and mentor Kiprop.

You're an imbecile with about as much integrity as a used bag of EPO.

ugrea wrote:

That’s pathetic. No wonder you have a reputation as a liar.

Hi Observski/Spade Defecator. I think my reputation here is determined by about 3 people - you (Observski/Spade Defecator), ex-doper and his various handles, and the insane troll you support who leaves fantasies here daily concerning young boys.

So I'm a liar for claiming I am the OP, but still a liar if my claim is true?

rekrunner wrote:

I can't speak for others, but my interest is not so much declaring everyone or anyone clean, but to try and get people who assume doping is a good explanation for African superiority to make a positive case for that. It stands to reason if doping is the main factor, and doping is as pervasive as you suggest, among Africans, Norwegians, and everyone else, that superiority would be distributed among all of the doped populations, and not narrowly focused on selected tribes in East African valleys.

Armstronglivs wrote:

The sub-text of a thread like this (and so many others like it) is that - please - someone has to be clean! If not a Kenyan then maybe a Norwegian. Pretty forlorn stuff, if that is what the sport has come to. It's a bit like trying to find virginity in a brothel.

Doping occurs everywhere but its prevalence is also dependent on the "culture" where it occurs. That culture includes the drugs that are available, the degree of involvement of coaches, trainers, and physios, the complicity of the medical profession and finally the collusion or otherwise of sports governance bodies. And the stringency of testing. (This has emerged from research conducted by Ann Shirley, among others.)

These factors will vary, at different times and amongst different sports and nationalities. Doping has become universally prevalent but it isn't uniform. But what some anti-doping experts have suggested is that the sudden rise of sporting success amongst any group now can typically be associated with doping.

However, unlike some here, I don't think doping is the preserve of some nations and not of others. Some athletes are more expert and "professional" in how they do it, and others are more "amateur" or naive - and thus are more likely to get caught.

Yet, regrettably, doping is a kind of sporting equaliser, and I would take the view that without it an athlete can no longer expect to compete on more or less equal terms with the very best of their competition. This is particularly so given the growth of doping as a huge black market industry and the near undetectability of many drugs currently available.

Here is the number of the Kenyans in the top 10, and number of Kenyans faster than 3:33, and number of white runners in the top 10, at the same stage of the season for the last 11 years. It's evident that white (i.e. Western home grown runners) are closing the gap.

2009 4 of top 10 - 4 faster than 3:33 0 whites

2010 5 of top 10 - 6 faster than 3:33 2 whites

2011 5 of top 10 - 7 faster than 3:33 1 white

2012 6 of top 10 - 6 faster than 3:33 1 white

2013 4 of top 10 - 4 faster than 3:33 0 whites

2014 4 of top 10 - 6 faster than 3:33 2 whites

2015 4 of top 10 - 7 faster than 3:33 1 white

2016 4 of top 10 - 4 faster than 3:33 1 white

2017 7 of top 10 - 8 faster than 3:33 1 white

2018 2 of top 10 - 3 faster than 3:33 4 whites

2019 3 of top 10 - 3 faster than 3:33 4 whites

Coevett wrote:

ugrea wrote:

That’s pathetic. No wonder you have a reputation as a liar.

Hi Observski/Spade Defecator. I think my reputation here is determined by about 3 people - you (Observski/Spade Defecator), ex-doper and his various handles, and the insane troll you support who leaves fantasies here daily concerning young boys.

So I'm a liar for claiming I am the OP, but still a liar if my claim is true?

No you are a liar for the lies you told in the original post, obviously.

rekrunner wrote:

There's that key word again, "imagine".

It is rather curious since I am repeatedly reminded that Moroccans are still topping the charts today with number of hematological anomalies found in ABP busts.

casual obsever wrote:

Probably a coincidence. Nothing to see here!

Yes...they are topping the charts with 11 ABP suspensions with a slight lead over Turkey's 10 but well below Russia's world leading 60+.

But the ABP has seemed to put the brakes on their magic. 4 guys went sub-3:00 pre-ABP with numerous Olympic & WC medals won. Only Iguider has gone sub-3 post-ABP running 3:28.79 (2015) with one Olympic & WC bronze. And he's getting old with his best days probably behind him.

In fact, after Iguider here's the next five (5) fastest guys post-ABP:

Mikhou 3:31.34 (2017)

Kaazouzi 3:31.62 (2018)

Moustaoui 3:31.84 (2011)

Maazouzi 3:31.94 (2013)

Bensghir 3:33.69 (2009)

*Mikhou is provisionally suspended on a pending ABP case.

* Bensghir served a banned for an ABP hematological anomalies case.

Other than Iguider, no one is running sub-3:31 and no other Olympic or WC medals have been won.

This is a compete 180 degree turnaround from the pre-ABP glory days. The days when Morocco meant business in the 1500 and the Kenyans had better be ready for a fight.

The Kingdom has collapsed...the dynasty gone.

*4 guys went sub-3:30 pre-ABP.

Sorry, which 4 went sub-3:30? If I'm not mistaken: Pre-ABP: 1) Aouita (1985) 2) El G (1996-2003) 3) Ramzi (2008) Post-ABP: 1) Laâlou (2010) 2) Iguider (2016) If I had to put an end date to North African (Morocco and Algeria) "glory days", it would be 2004, with El G's retirement.

The magic has faded out wrote:

But the ABP has seemed to put the brakes on their magic. 4 guys went sub-3:00 pre-ABP with numerous Olympic & WC medals won. Only Iguider has gone sub-3 post-ABP running 3:28.79 (2015) with one Olympic & WC bronze. And he's getting old with his best days probably behind him.

In fact, after Iguider here's the next five (5) fastest guys post-ABP:

Mikhou 3:31.34 (2017)

Kaazouzi 3:31.62 (2018)

Moustaoui 3:31.84 (2011)

Maazouzi 3:31.94 (2013)

Bensghir 3:33.69 (2009)

*Mikhou is provisionally suspended on a pending ABP case.

* Bensghir served a banned for an ABP hematological anomalies case.

Other than Iguider, no one is running sub-3:31 and no other Olympic or WC medals have been won.

This is a compete 180 degree turnaround from the pre-ABP glory days. The days when Morocco meant business in the 1500 and the Kenyans had better be ready for a fight.

The Kingdom has collapsed...the dynasty gone.

Coevett wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

People remember. Nothing faster than 3:33-3:35 over the next few years you said

You really are a moron. First you say I claimed that 'no human can run faster than 3:33 -3:35 because that is the clean human limit', then you link to an old thread in which some anonymous troll claims that in another thread I'd claimed that Kenyans would soon be running 3:33 - 3:35 at best.

Well the likes of Elijah Manangoi are now running 3:33 at best after boasting of running 3:24/3:25 in Monaco. Kenyans certainly are slowing down aside from potato Tim, who is still slower than the Manangoi's friend and mentor Kiprop.

You're an imbecile with about as much integrity as a used bag of EPO.

In that thread you reference and stand up for your points about 3:33-3:35 being the new elite standard.

I started that thread after Cheryuiot ran 3:29 AFTER you said there won't be any sub 3:30s anymore.

Everyone remembers

What's more Coevett, you constantly accuse me of using different handles which I've literally never done.

Meanwhile you have admitted to using different handles to spread your agenda.

You are a liar

ex-runner wrote:

What's more Coevett, you constantly accuse me of using different handles which I've literally never done.

Meanwhile you have admitted to using different handles to spread your agenda.

You are a liar

You're not fooling anyone with that claim ex runner.

Subway Surfers wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

What's more Coevett, you constantly accuse me of using different handles which I've literally never done.

Meanwhile you have admitted to using different handles to spread your agenda.

You are a liar

You're not fooling anyone with that claim ex runner.

He is right. Coevett is a liar and proven racist. And you are either him or as much of a liar as he is.

You two keep harassing that guy for nothing.

And yes brojos, check my IP and no, I am not ex-runner.

I am someone who despises the cyber-bullying you two do on a daily basis.

ugrea wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Hi Observski/Spade Defecator. I think my reputation here is determined by about 3 people - you (Observski/Spade Defecator), ex-doper and his various handles, and the insane troll you support who leaves fantasies here daily concerning young boys.

So I'm a liar for claiming I am the OP, but still a liar if my claim is true?

No you are a liar for the lies you told in the original post, obviously.

+1

Playground bickering once again becomes the norm.

casual obsever wrote:

Well, several people outed you right from the start as the lying OP...

And no - everyone here aside from the usual suspects realizes that you are a hard-core racist because of your openly racist remarks, some of which I repeated here in the moderation thread:

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&thread=9484830&id=9485546#9485546

Yes I'm fully aware you've been trying to get me banned Observski. You claim to be anti-doping in athletics, and appear to spend your time 24/7 on this board constantly shouting that everybody is doped to the gills and it's impossible to be elite without being so. You also claim you want a clean sport. You're the only person who claims to be 'anti-doping' rather than a doping apologist who is calling for me to be banned.

You lose whatever credibility you had by believing that myself being banned would be a net plus against anti-doping here.

I've related very valuable and sometimes unique information about the likes of Aouita, the coach of Beyer, Straub, and Herold, the decline in Kenyan times etc. You've done nothing here about join with your colleague Rekrunner in ruining every single anti-doping thread with your mindnumbing endless debate over 'whether EPO works' - something which only Rekrunner and Canova believe is even a credible belief. Your lazy generalizations and claims about everybody doping simply reduces the whole doping debate to a triviality. Why care if everybody dopes and that's the way it will always be?

You're a 100% doping apologist, and almost certainly a Russian plant - or at least somebody with a vested interest in trivializing Russian doping in particular. It's sad that some anti-dopers here still think that you are 'one of us'.

Yes, several registered accounts here have claimed I'm a racist, so what? This board is full of hardcore dopigng apologists, Marxists and other freaks and weirdos. We even a hardcore paedophile fantasist who slanders myself, famous runners, and even the Brojos - and you use him as evidence that I am a liar. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you were this freak.

You're disgusting and despicable and this board would be way better off without you.

0000000lllllll wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

You're not fooling anyone with that claim ex runner.

He is right. Coevett is a liar and proven racist. And you are either him or as much of a liar as he is.

You two keep harassing that guy for nothing.

And yes brojos, check my IP and no, I am not ex-runner.

I am someone who despises the cyber-bullying you two do on a daily basis.

This place is full of dopers and doping apologists, what does it matter if an admitted doper like ex-runner has another supporter from his ranks to make such an excuse for him?

There is probably nobody on this board other than Jamin who has been subjected to the bullying (and threats) that I've been on the end of these last two or three years here.

Ex-Runner admitted to doping, claims it's human nature to cheat, calls me a racist imbecile for claiming Nick Willis might be the clean world record holder, whilst accusing the likes of potato Tim and anyone capable of faster than 3:28.5 as a doper for breaking some notional 'clean limit'.

Now the t w a t is lying about me claiming that 3:35 is the clean limit, when I've never once said anything about clean limits and have repeatedly claimed that Coe, Ovett, Cram, Ryun, Elliott could have ran 3:25 clean, and that Jakob will do so clean in the future. All I've said is that after nearly 100 busts, we can't have any confidence in Kenyan times now, and that due to better testing Kenyan times will decline to the point where 3:33 is the new normal. This is indeed happening.

Perhaps Ex-Runner is confusing me with MindWeak?

Serious question for Ex-Runner - did you dope? Can you categorically say whether you did or did not? I don't know if I believe this guy accusing you of explicitly admitting to it, but I have read you a couple of times and it seems to me that it is fair to interpret your claims about doping to mean that you yourself doped as a UK middle-distance runner.

Do you have any real experience or knowledge that other guys in the UK were doping? If you believe others were doping but not you, why do you appear to have such a casual attitude towards doping in the sport?