Renato Canova defends Federico Rosa, "(It) is not possible to control what they individually do."

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

I don`t think Renato ever has been responsible to dope a runner. His training system is excellent, although it`s also a bit complicated to understand for the regular runner. The only thing I can criticize him for is his always recurring claim that "proper training" must be substantiated by high mileage. I have with my successful low mileage coaching in just 3 ½ years proved that he is wrong in that statement.

The most charitable interpretation of Mr Canova's body of work on EPO is that he doesn't think it's a problem. And I mean this in the most literal way: Not so much "EPO isn't as widespread as people think" (though he used to invoke this one, personalized to suit his defense of Africans) as "Who cares -- just shut up about it."

To the extent Mr Canova knows EPO is widespread at the top level, which he clearly does, and knows that it works, which he won't fully admit but also knows, then he understands that any athletes he coaches will be running against doped, world-class talent.

So either he has such supreme confidence in his athletes that he thinks he can overcome the doping of his rivals with training force and brilliance, which is farcical, or he accepts that they will lose, on average, without cheating. The latter can be split into "He knows he'll lose but isn't willing to cheat" and "He's competitive, so he has to accept that his athletes are doping."

To be, again, charitable, Mr Canova may simply want plausible deniability, like any crook with a long-range strategy, and therefore expects that athletes who work under him have handled the "extras" outside of his direct guidance.

The problem with being charitable here is that Mr Canova's long-winded attempts to repel accusations have changed significantly in content over time as more and more Kenyans get popped. This would not be necessary if he had been completely forthright from the start, unless one instead assumed he is simply naive about how prevalent doping in athletics really is. This strains credulity in the extreme.

At a minimum, I do not believe that Renato Canova believes all of his own athletes have always trained and raced clean. In reality I suspect it's more nefarious than that, but that's between him and God.

Renato Canova wrote:

You can wait all your life, before seeing one of the athletes of my group busted.

Renato, I believe you wouldn't dope them, but doesn't that go against the thesis of the thread title you started, i.e. "(It) is not possible to control what they individually do." .

This was one boring a*s thread until the big post, and response, on page six. The rest is just the usual rehashed LetsRun armchair palaver. I mean, like OMG ? ! Have the Medicis and Borgias invaded Iten? S*** just got real ... to use your parlance.

El Keniano wrote:

This was one boring a*s thread until the big post, and response, on page six. The rest is just the usual rehashed LetsRun armchair palaver. I mean, like OMG ? ! Have the Medicis and Borgias invaded Iten? S*** just got real ... to use your parlance.

0/10 ??

Give Me A Break wrote:

El Keniano wrote:

This was one boring a*s thread until the big post, and response, on page six. The rest is just the usual rehashed LetsRun armchair palaver. I mean, like OMG ? ! Have the Medicis and Borgias invaded Iten? S*** just got real ... to use your parlance.

0/10 ??

I don’t get it. You don’t like my opinion or don’t think I should have one?

I think you've got a couple things backwards. Renato hasn't denied a doping problem exists in Kenya. A more accurate interpretation of Mr Canova's body of work on EPO is that he doesn't think it's a solution, for athletes living and training at altitude.

Stinkbird wrote:

The most charitable interpretation of Mr Canova's body of work on EPO is that he doesn't think it's a problem.

While half the facts tell one side of the story, we should also always keep in mind, in a thread about Kenyan marathon distance running, that the self-admitted cheats includes sprinters and throwers and steroids, and middle distance and race walking -- we cannot reliably determine true Kenyan blood doping prevalence from such a global average (ignoring for the moment the known issues with such kind of survey results). Nor can we determine that it is more concentrated at the top. The thing about Olaf Schumacher's statement of "up to 1 minute" for 10K, is he doesn't say under what conditions this opinion of an up to 1-minute maximum upper bound of benefit applies. From this statement, we don't actually know his estimate for the 28' runner, already trained at altitude. And as far as I know, he has not coached any runners, with or without EPO, to perform at that level, so while he may be a doping expert for the IAAF, making expert determinations of which athletes likely doped, he is not a performance expert for top athletes. But I do find this statement interesting when we look at anecdotes like Cathal Lombard, and claims of 3 minute gains from EPO. Here we have an expert giving an "up to 1 minute" upper bound. Results of 3 minute improvements over 10K from EPO don't appear to be supported by anti-doping scientists or scientific observation.

I went to see all the cases already finished by AIU.

These cases regards 518 athletes, and it's interesting to look at some statistical data.

The banned athletes belongs to the following Countries :

85 : Russia

38 : India

33 : Morocco

32 : Turkey and Kenya

19 : Ukraine

18 : USA and China

15 : Italy

13 : KSA and Brazil

12 : Iran and Belarus

11 : Kazakistan, France, RSA and Ethiopia

10 : Rumenia

8 : Hungary

6 : Spain and Croatia

5 : GBR, Nigeria and Portugal

4 : Azerbaijan, Greece

3 : Slovakia, Mexico, Tanzania, Bahrein, Sweden, Jamaica, KZG, Afghanistan, Bulgaria, Chile and Austria

2 : Iraq, Qatar, Egypt, Zambia, Sri Lanka, Canada, Algeria and Ecuador

1 : CAF, Moldavia, Venezuela, Latvia, Serbia, Syria, Ghana, UAE, Senegal, Belgium, Bahamas, Suisse,

North Korea, New Zealand, Germany, Cyprus, Rwanda, Poland, Tagikistan, Lituania, Nederland,

Seychelle, Czech Republic, Malta, Japan, Uzbekistan, MKD, Comore Islands, Botswana,

Australia, Finland and Argentina

The athletes belongs to the following technical sectors :

Sprint (100-400m) and Hurdles : 86

Endurance (800-Marathon including also Ultramarathon, Mountain Race and Walk) : 211

Jumps : 35

Throws and Multiple Events : 78

Now, looking at the cases of athletes of endurance only, we can see the reasons for their ban :

16 athletes for refusal to submit to antidoping

10 athletes for detention and administration of some doping (also with other athletes)

3 athletes for Tampering

1 athlete for his participation in competition during the period of ineligibility

40 athletes were banned because of irregularity in their ABP (Biological Passport)

All the other athletes were banned because in their urines there was the presence of the following illegal substances :

37 : EPO

26 : Norandrosterone

18 : Clenbuterolo

9 : Meldonium

7 : Stanozolol

6 : Dehydrochlormethyltestosterone, Furosemide

5 : Prednisolone, 1-Testosterone

4 : CERA, Betamethasone

3 : GW 1516, Higenamine, Cocaine

2 : Salbutamolo, Ephedrine, Nandrolone, Trimetazidine, Amfetamine, Mesterolone, Terbutaline,

Methylexaneamine, Metenolone, Hydrochlorothiazide

1 : Formestane, Ostarine, Clomiphene, Sibutramine, Fenoterol, Oxandrolone, Methylprednisolone,

Clostebol, Phentermine, HGH, FG-4592, Heptaminol, Drostanolone, 19-Norandrostanolone, Methylphenidate, Metandienone, Acetazolamide

This means that the athletes thought to try advantage, in similar events of endurance, from 41 different medicines/substances, that it seems there is big confusion about the effects of every substance.

We can see later a more detailed analysis.

These don't sound like things you learned in this thread -- you already believed them before this thread was written. What I learned is: - Renato spoke of two kinds of Kenyan training camps -- one which is centralized where many athletes live and train full time at the camp, and one which is not, where athletes just train. Athletes living and training full time in a camp can be educated against doping, while athletes who just train can be influenced by bad ideas when they are not at camp. - In 2012, Rosa actually tested and removed some suspicious athletes from his group, and as a reward, Athletics Kenya under Isaiah Kiplagat temporarily banned Rosa.

Subway Surfers wrote:

What we have learnt in this thread?

That Renato, who claims to be at war with Rosa, started a thread defending him. Ha? Then we discussed the benefits of epo and we learnt that it clearly still works, and works very well indeed. We saw examples of times run by what would be very good national runners and within one year's 'proper training' they can do mega super-dooper times, unachievable by great athletes from yesteryear, who may themselves have been suspicious. These sudden stars, we'd never heard of, are here a short time and then disappear. And we are meant not be suspicious. It works well, very well.

If you are so tired, you need to come up with a stronger counter-argument. You are still confusing belief, with effect. There is no doubt that belief is widespread and even goes to the top. But your anecdotes do not show effect.

Top Kenyans On The Sauce wrote:

Total BS!...and I'm tired of the same old rhetoric that EPO doesn't work on top talented Kenyans. I think there were enough doped-up top Kenyans who "won" medals & titles at major competitions, set a WR and posted some of the fastest times in their event .

Try these names out for size: Kiprop, Bett, Jeptoo, Sumgong, Jebet, Kisorio, Yego, Muraga, Rutto, etc.). They are no slouches and were big time and primetime athletes.

Renato Canova wrote:

37 : EPO

26 : Norandrosterone

18 : Clenbuterolo

maybe it's not a matter of a single substance, but the synergic use. Nandrolone has effect also on red blood cells, clenbuterol helps with fat mass (and weight is so important for runners). I don't think the problem is EPO, or at least not EPO assumed alone.

rekrunner wrote:

These don't sound like things you learned in this thread -- you already believed them before this thread was written.

This thread was going so well, too well. So promising and then boom! In comes the fun Police. You should have been alive during prohibition.

Promising what? I'm just holding you accountable for what you say. Ironically, the prohibition just made things worse.

Subway Surfers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

These don't sound like things you learned in this thread -- you already believed them before this thread was written.

This thread was going so well, too well. So promising and then boom! In comes the fun Police. You should have been alive during prohibition.

Thou protesteth too much, drug pusher.

rekrunner wrote:

If you are so tired, you need to come up with a stronger counter-argument. You are still confusing belief, with effect. There is no doubt that belief is widespread and even goes to the top. But your anecdotes do not show effect.

How do you know that these cases with top talented Kenyans do not show effect? Can you provide some specific pinpoint evidence for each and every case? Just don't sit there in your Ivory Tower and act like you know everything when you can't provide any exculpatory evidence for each every doping case listed here. Let's try us again:

Try these names out for size: Kiprop, Bett, Jeptoo, Sumgong, Jebet, Jepchumba, Kisorio, Erupe, Muraga, Rutto, etc.). They are no slouches and were big time and prime time athletes. All of them tested positive for for rocket fuel! Kisorio officially tested hot for nandrolone, but based on him talking about a substance "injected straight to the blood for the body to have more oxygen" and running "so smooth" with "more stamina"...house money says he was on a EPO-roid cocktail and was only glowing from long half-life of the steroid at the time of the test.

"Kisorio, who has competed in world cross-country championships and ran the third fastest half-marathon ever, told the German broadcaster ARD last year that he took illegal drugs"because everyone told me, I wasn't the only one – and none of the others got caught for doping".

"He added: "I know that a lot of medical substances are used, which are injected straight to the blood for the body to have more oxygen. And when you run, you run so smooth. You have more stamina."

"When the prize money comes in the doctors want a piece of your success. There are some doctors who settle down in popular athlete areas where you can find the training camps. These men just open a pharmacy and claim they are just selling legal medication. Then they approach the athletes. It is the same all over the country."

Here's a good one just for you rekrunner. The guy has some good points:

Zede wrote:

maybe it's not a matter of a single substance, but the synergic use. Nandrolone has effect also on red blood cells, clenbuterol helps with fat mass (and weight is so important for runners). I don't think the problem is EPO, or at least not EPO assumed alone.

+1

Drug cheats usually use cocktails, different drug cheats use different cocktails. Examples are abundant.

The positive tests normally only show the one substance that was mistakenly overdosed, or its glowing time underestimated.

rekrunner wrote:

While half the facts tell one side of the story, we should also always keep in mind, in a thread about Kenyan marathon distance running, that the self-admitted cheats includes sprinters and throwers and steroids, and middle distance and race walking -- we cannot reliably determine true Kenyan blood doping prevalence from such a global average (ignoring for the moment the known issues with such kind of survey results). Nor can we determine that it is more concentrated at the top.

a) The thread is not "about Kenyan marathon distance running".

b) We all know that IAAF events include sprinting.

Are the endurance events a lot dirtier?

Renato Canova wrote:

The banned athletes belongs to the following Countries :

85 : Russia

38 : India

33 : Morocco

32 : Turkey and Kenya

19 : Ukraine

18 : USA and China

15 : Italy

13 : KSA and Brazil

12 : Iran and Belarus

11 : Kazakistan, France, RSA and Ethiopia

10 : Rumenia

...

Given how high up the typical distance running nations a la Morocco and Kenya are, they are certainly not cleaner than the average.

c) Seppelt's data showed that doping is more concentrated on the top. For example, gold medals were more suspicious than bronze medals.

It is also logical, for PEDs improve performance, and there is more (money and fame) to gain at the top: higher rewards, more risk takers.

More like 78 from the ABP sanctions list which doesn't include another dozen or so CAS cases that I found that are not listed for some reason:

On the list of substances how do you know that the dopers aren't combining an ESA or transfusions with another substance(s)? (e.g., roids, T, HGH, stimulants, masking agents, etc.). House money says dopers use a multitude of banned substances in their cocktails testing positive usually for just one substance (though there has been dopers who were intially popped for EPO and then popped a second time for roids, T, masking agent, etc., and vice-versa).

And catastrophic news on the Russian front: ?

casual obsever wrote:

Zede wrote:

maybe it's not a matter of a single substance, but the synergic use. Nandrolone has effect also on red blood cells, clenbuterol helps with fat mass (and weight is so important for runners). I don't think the problem is EPO, or at least not EPO assumed alone.

+1

Drug cheats usually use cocktails, different drug cheats use different cocktails. Examples are abundant.

The positive tests normally only show the one substance that was mistakenly overdosed, or its glowing time underestimated.

+1

Well said...you're well researched in this field. Now get Canova & Rek to better understand this. ?