Training Discussion Thread - outsiderunner

No speed development?

There should be one day per week of running drills, uphill and/or downhill running plus

one or more of the following: Flying 30s; 6 x 80s; 2 x 4 x 60s; or similar. Then the next

day must be very easy to make sure you get adaptation. Skipping rope is also good.

Frank Short wrote:

No speed development?

There should be one day per week of running drills, uphill and/or downhill running plus

one or more of the following: Flying 30s; 6 x 80s; 2 x 4 x 60s; or similar. Then the next

day must be very easy to make sure you get adaptation. Skipping rope is also good.

I think what we're not seeing here is the macro view of things. I'm sure that SC has it all thought out and has shared that vision with OR privately but what we're getting here are just snapshots. You cannot train week by week or even two weeks at a time. Training plan design begins with a goal and must include a progression of some sort. Speed development would be part of that puzzle but for different coaches it may have a different emphasis and/or placement within the cycle.

That was fabulous. Just fabulous. It felt like going on vacation or eating cherry cheesecake from Philadelphia. Went 10.25 at 7:18 overall pace, and yet it felt easier than either of my two other easy runs this week (both were 7:23), and most of today’s run was in the rain (heavy at times). Was holding back a lot and just cruising along. I did get much better sleep last night.

Keep it coming, Coach Stone.

My remaining Winter Series races are as follows...

WS#3: 12/29/18

WS#4:1/12/19 (5-miler)

WS#5:1/26/19

WS#6: 2/9/19

WS#7: 2/23/19

WS#8: 3/9/19

...and then, of course, Boston on 4/15/19

Thank you, my friend, and I hope you have a SUPER holiday season!

Glad you are feeling good, OR. Speaking of which, I might hold back a little on this weekend’s long run. Maybe stick to the 14-15 mile range, and limit the pace running to the last 4-5 miles. You’ll probably feel great, and have the urge to naturally drop sub-6:00s the last mile or two the way you normally do, but I would really like to see you hone in on a steady effort between 6:00-6:15/mi for those several miles in a row. Start relaxing at that pace, and try to get comfortable at it, as if you feel like you are holding back. That will eventually be the goal pace at the marathon distance - if not quite Boston, most certainly by the fall of 2019.

Also, we still have quite a ways to go before Boston even. 70-75 mpw in singles is plenty volume right now, and 4-5 miles to cap off a 14-15 mile long run is plenty of intensity.

More interested to see how the 5k next weekend feels and how it unfolds.

No problem, Stone. Will do what you ask. No doubt, I need to relax and get comfortable at 6:00-6:15 pace.

I know it is far in advance, but do you have any ideas for a race for the fall of 2019? I have one that I have been tossing around.

What race did you have in mind for the fall? I am suspecting you would want a course that offers the chance at a fast time.

Yes, I do want a course that offers a chance at a fast time, but NYC has a certain lure to it. As you may know, that is where I had that bad experience toward the end in 2016. Plus, NYC is where I am from. It would be sort of a “revenge,” an “NYC II” for me...but yes I know it is not a fast or easy course, and I would like a fast time. What might you have in mind, if anything?

Very windy conditions out there today...looking forwad to the easy pace.

Chicago is fast but also requires a quicker turnaround after Boston. And the weather could be hit or miss.

NYC has a certain lure to it, and you are a fine hill runner. While you could exact revenge on the course, it likely won’t be your fastest possible time since the course is so challenging.

You have done Richmond a couple times already and know the course well.

Philly would be a nice option as it is faster than NYC, gives you additional time to train, is relatively close to your part of the country, and the weather is more reliable.

Going outside of your travel tendencies, CIM offers a really nice option. Better weather, very fast course, gives you the most time to train, has tons of competition in your ability level. And, as I will announce on the RRTT tomorrow, it also so happens I will be taking my own shot at 2:40:00 there in 2019.

Lots of great options for you to consider...

Let the man race wherever he wants NYC or Patagonia. A great coach never forces an athlete against their will.

Good luck to the both of you with the new partnership!

You are right. Lots of good options. That CIM course is tempting, especially with lots of groups to run with...but it is far, far away (at least for me). Hmm...

outsiderunner wrote:

... NYC has a certain lure to it. As you may know, that is where I had that bad experience toward the end in 2016. Plus, NYC is where I am from. It would be sort of a “revenge,” an “NYC II” for me...but yes I know it is not a fast or easy course ...

2018 results:

Men's Age Group: 50-54

1 Giovanni Stella (51), ITA 2:40:57

2 Patrick Brelivet (51), FRA 2:42:39

3 Blaise Brochard (52), USA 2:45:42

Boston 2017 results:

Men's Age Group: 50-54

1. Tim Meigs (50), USA 2:41:48

2. Jean Pommier (53), USA 2:44:50

3. Rafael Cueto (52), DOM 2:45:10

In the past, I used to think that exchanges like this would be better handled by way of email than threads like this, but I think this thread has a chance to be hugely instructive, regardless of the outcome of any of OR's races.

I know Meigs a little bit having met him at a couple of races. The guy is a stud. He also trains a lot more like OR will be training than the way Or has trained. Lots of easy distance in the 7:10-8:00 range. Plenty of rolling hills. Moderately high volume (don't recall many huge volume weeks, but plenty of moderately high weeks). Regular interval and tempo workouts. Adjustments based on who he sees out in the trails.

You bet this thread is instructive, Smoove. Could not agree more...and thanks for the input on Meigs’ training.

Allen - Thanks for posting the results...they give me a target.

Ran 10.25 at 7:18 overall today. Felt great. Looking forward to the fast finish long tomorrow, the way Stone has drawn it up.

Been out of the loop for awhile. Caught up on this thread...

OR- keep taking in the advice Nothing to lose and the world to gain. Looking forward to see results in Boston and beyond. Merry Christmas.

RRR - You bet. A very Merry Christmas to you and best of health, too.

Did the LR. Not feeling my best, but perhaps it was just some jitters regarding the last 4-5. I settled in to the rhythm of the hills at a comforatble pace, and ran what I perceive as a “10+5”...15.13 at 6:56 overall, and here are the splits...

7:48, 7:29, 7:31, 7:30, 7:23, 7:15, 7:06, 7:13, 7:05, 7:13

6:16, 6:11, 6:09, 6:01, 5:55, 47.39

Overall, it was fun, especially once I got settled in to the easy pace, and then once I was able to shift gears and dial-in the sub-6:15 in the quality (MP) segment.

Will post my week to the regular thread.

Merry Christmas!!

Merry Christmas, Stone...

I ran the workout a day early in order to accommodate my work schedule tomorrow. To me, it went very well. Did a 2/7/2, with the MP block of 7 miles. Here is what I did...let me know what you think...

7:49, 7:30

6:13, 6:13, 6:03, 6:04, 6:02, 5:57, 5:56

6:57, 6:50, 55.4

Merry Christmas!

Great discipline getting out there today and getting your workout in. I have to say, I am very impressed by your willingness to stick to the recommended schedule as best as you can, while keeping elements that are true to your running spirit.

A few notes/observations.

I see that your workouts have a tendency to progress, with your last mile or rep usually being your fastest. That is great, and I know that is how you are used to running your workouts. I actually tend to do the same thing. I would simply caution you to not look at the “fast end” of the spectrum of paces that I give you as some sort of barrier that you need to “beat” in a workout. There are no bonus points for “outperforming” a workout. While you may organically feel 5:57/5:56 pace to “feel” in line with the paces prescribed, and in all honesty 3 to 4 secs isn’t that great of a difference than 6:00/mi, I just want to break you of the habit of ALWAYS finishing faster than the prescribed paces. Try as best you can to stick to the zone. All that being said, your average pace today was spot on.

I would also caution you not to push the cooldown pace. I know your legs are primed and ready to go from the tempo running, but allow them to really relax and soak up the workout by really slowing down. You should have that floating feeling like you are almost walking on the cooldown.

These are just minor observations, by no means criticisms, of your training thus far. I care mostly about habits that we give ourselves. What do our habits say about us? How do our habits help us achieve our goals?

One other note - moving the workout to today also gives you three days of running before your next race. I would still recommend a rest day in there, or at the least, a VERY easy day like 4 miles at 7:30-8:00/mi pace.

But keep the running you do get in up until Saturday very easy, just as you have been doing, progressing to a comfortable clip around 7:00/mi pace near the end as feels appropriate, and averaging around 7:30/mi or so overall for the run.

I would also suggest throwing in 4-5 strides about :15-20 each at the end of Friday’s run. Leave your legs wanting more and ready to race Saturday.

Keep up the great work. Heading out for my own Christmas run with Mrs. Stone very soon...