sub 1:40 800m

Madein_82 wrote:

There seems to be this idea that, sooner or later some 400m runner, is going to com up and do this ??

why?

Two people in the world have gone under 1:42, im just not sure a sub1:40 is humanly possible.

I'm sure van Niekerk had been the first sub 1:40 coached by me ...... he was already used to fast long 1200m repeats in his training to his world record 43 sec at 400m. 43 sec X 2 = 1 min 26 sec, and that would give him a huge span of 14 sec , 7 sec per lap, relatively to his 400m to break the 800m WR in sub 1:40 .

COACH WIZARD 1 wrote:

Madein_82 wrote:

There seems to be this idea that, sooner or later some 400m runner, is going to com up and do this ??

why?

Two people in the world have gone under 1:42, im just not sure a sub1:40 is humanly possible.

I'm sure van Niekerk had been the first sub 1:40 coached by me ...... he was already used to fast long 1200m repeats in his training to his world record 43 sec at 400m. 43 sec X 2 = 1 min 26 sec, and that would give him a huge span of 14 sec , 7 sec per lap, relatively to his 400m to break the 800m WR in sub 1:40 .

Not necessarily Wayde Van Niekerk, but sub-1:40 800m can only be produced by a F.A.T. sub-45.50 man, not a let'srun 45.xx 400m man. On this site, a dozen or so guys are considered legit sub-45.50 men based on their kick or based on a phony relay leg. How many legit sub-45.50 400m men are willing to devote themselves to 800m? More sub-45.50 400m men would be willing to try if 800m were a four turn stagger race. Why would sub-45.50 400m athletes give up on 400m, risk getting pushed and tripped or boxed in racing 800m?

Has a high-profile 800 been run in lanes for the entire distance before?

LikeAnsweringQuestionsOnAmazon. wrote:

Has a high-profile 800 been run in lanes for the entire distance before?

Of course not Olympics or World Championships. No to Commonwealth Games, African Games, Pan Am Games, European Championships and no to African Championships. Gals and guys would have no choice but to race fast through 600m.

Coach Wizard 1: Do you happen to know any times, rests, number of repeats for van Niekerk's long repeats?

COACH WIZARD 1 wrote:

Madein_82 wrote:

There seems to be this idea that, sooner or later some 400m runner, is going to com up and do this ??

why?

Two people in the world have gone under 1:42, im just not sure a sub1:40 is humanly possible.

I'm sure van Niekerk had been the first sub 1:40 coached by me ...... he was already used to fast long 1200m repeats in his training to his world record 43 sec at 400m. 43 sec X 2 = 1 min 26 sec, and that would give him a huge span of 14 sec , 7 sec per lap, relatively to his 400m to break the 800m WR in sub 1:40 .

The one problem with this 400 to 800m logic is taking fast twitch and slow twitch muscle, among other things into consideration. A 43 second 400m guy will have a big speed reserve yes, but will likely have a hard time running faster than a high 1:4x because there isn’t enough slow twitch muscle or Vo2Max development. Take time to develop the Vo2Max and slow twitch and you’ve decimated the runners 400m potential in the process.

trackhead wrote:

Coe was 46.78 and 3:29.77

Kipketer was 46.5 and 3:40 (probably better than that in reality)

Cruz was 46.0 and 3:35

46.0 + 3:30 = 1:40?

Actually, Coe's and Kipketer's official 400m pbs were almost identical - Coe (46.87), Kipketer (46.85).

Also, they both ran almost identical best relay splits - Coe (45.5 in 79), Kipketer (45.4 in 97, just before the first of his world records over 800m that summer).

N.B - Coe ran a more impressive 45.6 split in 81, 90 mins after front running a 1:44.0, despite stumbling at the takeover and starting the leg from practically a standing start. Otherwise it would have been more like 45.0 for the split.

Added to that, Cruz's official 400m pb was 47.1, but his (now no longer available) website had him down as running a 46.0 400m in training, IIRC from 1984, his best year, which I can well believe.

Conclusion - both Coe and Kipketer were capable of much faster than their 46.8 official pbs when they broke the 800m WR. I would expect at least 46.0 in ideal race with decent competition at peak of the season.

Another important point to remember is that in 81 Coe ran a practically solo 3:31.9 off opening splits of 52.4 and 1:49.1, missing the then WR by 0.59secs. He stated after that with even splits to the bell he would have run 3:28 that evening. His 3:47.3 mile a month later, with more poor pacing, is worth 3:30.5 using the standard conversion.

So, I would argue that there is enough evidence to claim Coe was capable of running 46.0 and 3:30 within the same season in 81, which I don't believe any other 2 lap runner has ever been capable of. In those days there was no Diamond League and British runners had to run a large amount of domestic fixtures and matches against other countries. Even the likes of Coe had to get permision from the BAAB to run on the continent. Had he not had to run so many of these slow, tactical races and been chasing the 1500 and mile WRs late in the season, and instead had focused on the 800m with several paced attempts, I think we would have seen a 1:40 (sub 1:41.0) 800m in 81.

Though Cruz and Kipketer also ran sub 1:42, and both had similar 400m speed to Coe, neither produced anything to suggest they could run a 3:30 1500m. Both tried to break Coe's 1000m WR, and neither managed to break 2:14, although Kipketer would have been able to (break 2:14) with more efforts. Neither had the endurance of a peak Coe.

I don't think there have yet been an athlete capable of breaking 1:40, which I think increasingly looks like the limit of human ability, at least naturally.

To break 1:40, an athlete would likely need to be capable of 45.0 for 400m and 3:28 for 1500m, or at least 2:11.0 for 1000m. Or perhaps benefit from increasingly faster tracks and technical advances with spikes.

You made many assumptions with little to no logical reason for your assumptions, not a sample of J. Cruz, Kipketer and Coe. Statistically, a sample of thirty is near the minimum sample size to make an accurate analysis of population. Of top 30 800m men, all-time, as of now, 1:42.86 800m. Of the top 30 all-time 800m men, only two have a sub-3:30 1500m personal best. If we only consider Olympic events and do not consider TT events, 600m & 1000m, 800m race is strongly correlated with 400m and 800m race is weakly correlated with 1500m or one mile. Ventolin and I used to argue and I was always correct. He would use your 400m and 1500m formula trying to determine 800m P.B. Many 800m specialists are relatively awful racing events longer than 1000m. That formula is irrelevant. Try using that formula on all 144 sub-1:44 800men. You will learn quickly for most 800m gals & guys, that formula does not work.

Coe was a lower mileage 800m specialist in 1979. It stands to reason, while a lower mileage 800m guy, he set his 400m P.B. You have absolutely no evidence that Coe was capable of even sub-47.5 when he set his 1500m P.B. in 1986. By 1986, Coe had upped his mileage. By 1986, Coe was far from his peak 800m years and especially far from his 400m peak.

J. Cruz, a 46 flat TT? Maybe he did, but the truth is, 800m athletes and longer who TT 400m usually do rolling starts. J. Cruz' so-called 46 flat doesn't count.

If someone races sub-1:40 800m without an improvement in shoe or track technology, it will be done by a 400m/800m guy who is not afraid of XC type training part of the year, but it will not be done by someone who also has a goal of racing sub-3:32 1500m.

We will agree Coe had greater 800m potential, but Coe made the correct decision. If Coe would have trained as a 400m/800m guy who was not afraid of XC training part of the year, Coe may have lowered his 800m P.B. by about 1/2 a second. Since Coe has two 1500m Olympic gold medals, he made the correct decision.

You incorrectly suppose that Coe's 1500m peak was in 86! It wasn't, he just happened to have better pacing for 3 laps in that race in Rieti. Coe was marginally past his best in all events by 86, although anyone who could run a championship 800m in 1:44.5 with a last 200m in 24.8, running approximately 11m extra on bends, was certainly still in 1:42 shape (sub 1:43.0). After all he'd run 1:43.0 the year before (85), when below his best and carrying various injuries. So no, Coe was not "far from his peak 800m years". And where is your evidence that his mileage leading up to the 86 season was markedly greater than it had been prior to his peak 81 season?

Moreover, Coe's official 400m pb was set in 79, yes, but he never ran a serious individual 400m in the summer of 81 (apart from a 46.9, in essence equalling his 79 pb, in early May when winning by 1.4secs), and I have already shown through his 45.6 relay split that he was in better 1 lap shape than in 79. And in 81, chasing the mile WR, he was likely running more mileage than 79.

Coe ran a 46.8 relay leg in May 84 and May 87, so I have no doubt he was at least capable of an open 47.5 at the peak of the 86 season, especially considering he was running 200m in training in 21.7 in the days leading up to the European final.

I don't doubt that 400m ability is more important in correlating 800m potential than 1500m, but it is simple logic that if Athlete A has concurrent faster pbs over 400m and 1500m than Athlete B, then he will be faster over 800m.

Pbs over 600m and 1000m will give even better correlations for 2 laps.

The reason for my post is that the poster I was responding to suggested that someone with 46.0 (400m)/3:30 (1500m) abilty would be an ideal candidate for a 1:40 800m. I suggested that the only athlete who has ever shown that combination of speed and endurance in the same season, based on his Mile WR (equivalent to a 3:30 1500m) and 45.6 relay split from standing start, was Coe.

In addition, my stating that someone with 46.0 and 3:30 ability should be able to run 1:40 (sub 1:41.0) for 800m, does not exclude those without being able to run so well in the over distance event. After all, Rudisha was a 45.5 400 runner (probably capable of 45 flat when he won the Olympic title in 2012) and nowhere near capable of a 3:30 1500m, yet he ran 1:40.

Thus, there is more than 1 way to skin a cat, and there is more than 1 archetype to run a 1:40 800m.

Well, I think he should have run 0.5secs faster in 81 with the training (for 800 & 1500) he did. Coe should have run 1:41.5 that night in Firenze had he not run most of the 3rd bend wide to pass Konchellah, which cost him 2m. This was in early June. Had he chased the WR further later that summer, I have no doubt he'd have run at least 1:41.2, something which Coe himself ackowledged to me when I questioned him about it at a book signing in 2012.

There has never been a 46 flat 3:30 flat man. Coe sure wasn't. It matters what gals & guys do on the track not what they tell you at a book signing.

Eh!! A book signing has nothing to do with it.

In 81 Coe ran a 45.6 relay from a stationary start, certainly worth 46 flat, and ran a mile in 3:47, equivalent to a 3:30 1500m. No, he never recorded an open 400m time of 46.0 or run an actual 1500m in 3:30 (although he did a few years later), but he is the only man who has shown the ability to run a 46 flat and a 3:30 the same season, 1981. In fact he is the only man with an official FAT 400m pb below 47 and a 1500m pb below 3:30.

1:39.99 Splits...the last 200m is always going to be a problem

200 - 23.92

400 - 25.19 49.11

600 - 25.38 1:14.49

800 - 25.50

**Rudisha's splits in his WR, were very close and he may have been capable if he slowed down the first 200 and didn't hit that 3rd 200 so hard.

23.5

25.8 49.28

25.0 1:14.3

26.6

46.0 and 3:30.0 will only give you 1:40.66.

You need to be a 46.0/3:28.0 athlete to run 1:39.99

Very basically 45 + 3:30, 46 + 3:28 or 47 + 3:26 combos will give you a sub 1:40

Easy calculation I use is 2/3 of 400m + 1/3 of 1500m = 800 time

Example; Coe 46.87 + 3:32.03 = 1:41.92 which is very close to what he ran at the time. Or if we covert his mile 46.87+3:30.48 = 1:41.41

JR

Gucci Little Piggy wrote:

I feel that if any of these talented 400 runners, especially Jeremy Wariner,

Yeah, especially the white guy.

Before any one jumps on it, yes I know Coe ran 3:29, but I'm not convinced he was in the same 46.87 shape that year given it was 7 years later.

I think it’s likely to be a 44.xx 400m runner with good endurance (low 3:30s 1500 ability)—Emmanuel Korir with better endurance, Abubaker Kaki with better speed, or just an all around slightly better Rudisha.

Moreover, I think his name will be Yuri Venner (a Swede born to a Russian mother), he’ll be 6’1”, 155 lbs., and he’ll win two Olympic 800 golds + a silver in his 3rd appearance. His progression from age 13 will look like this:

13 23.63 - 51.89

14 23.00 - 48.81 - 1:55.67

15 11.20 - 22.17 - 47.50

16 22.02 - 46.65 - 1:51.54

17 21.64 - 46.03 - 1:49.68

18 21.52 - 45.82 - 1:15.30

19 45.56 - 1:13.94 - 1:43.92

20 45.24 - 1:41.69 -3:57.23y OG 800 gold

21 21.11 - 44.88 - 1:12.61 - 1:41.44

22 45.26 - 1:40.75

23 44.78 - 1:39.95 - 2:13.02

24 45.28 - 1:40.91 - 3:33.20 OG 800 gold

25 45.73 - 1:41.23 - 2:13.87

26 45.09 - 1:12.61 - 1:41.24

27 45.68 - 1:42.15 - 3:35.11

28 45.44 - 1:42.02 OG 800 silver

29 45.99 - 1:43.07 - 3:36.93

30 46.24 - 1:45.90

31 1:45.28 - 3:37.34

32 47.06 1:46.49

As you can see, he will start off as an aspiring sprinter/400m specialist and something of an age-group star, but eventually his aptitude for the 800 will be undeniable, and he’ll quickly become a world-beater upon shifting his focus to the longer distance.

He will break Johnny Gray’s long-standing 600m World’s Best by .2” at age 21 and, improbably, clock the exact same time five years later.

He will make a couple half-assed attempts at the 1k WR, but neither will be well executed and he’ll never come within a second.

He will run a 3:33.20 1500 lifetime best to beat Nils Blomgren at the Swedish Championships, before defending his 800 Olympic crown later in the year.

People here will argue about his best performance—whether it was his 1:39.95 bomb in Stockholm, with perfect pacing to 500m and 49.02-50.93 splits, or his virtual even-split (50.47-50.44) 1:40.91 in the Olympic final to defend his title and equal Rudisha’s Olympic record, while winning by 10 meters.

He will suffer an achilles injury at age 29 and never be the same athlete again. Recurring problems with said achilles will hamper his training for the rest of his career, and he’ll retire at age 32, still the world record holder and almost universally regarded as the 800m GOAT.

Any other scenario would surprise me tbh.

JRinaldi wrote:

Before any one jumps on it, yes I know Coe ran 3:29, but I'm not convinced he was in the same 46.87 shape that year given it was 7 years later.

Hi. I respect your views and know you are an admirer of Coe based on previous exchanges with you, but you are taking his 79 400 pb, rather than what he was capable of in 81, the year he ran (and practically equalled his pb) 46.9 in early May and then ran a 45.6 leg from a standing start 90mins after front running a 1:44.0. Surely you can see that he was capable of much faster than 46.87 for an 'open' 400m in 81!? Indeed, he was capable of faster than that in 79. He was very disappointed with the 46.87, after running an easy 46.95 easing up in the heats. N.B a 45.5 relay at the European Cup.

You should also realise that his 3:32.03 WR for 1500 in 79 was off opening splits of 54 and 59 for Coe, and he ran the last 800m solo. He was clearly capable of 3:30 with even pacing to bell that night.

I would also add that in 81 his mile WR (equivalent to 3:30.5) was also off appalling pacing (55.3/58.0 opening 440s) and that his solo 3:31.9 with 52.4 and 1:49.1 opening laps was also worth considerably below 3:30.

I would also argue that Coe was capable of 46.8 in 86 when he ran 3:29. Not only was he running sub 22 secs 200m reps in training at the Europeans (witnessed by the UK teams squad of sprinters - one of them made quite a bit of money betting on Coe to win the 800m in Stuttgart), a standard he said he hadn't managed since 81, but the way he won the European 800m, running 11m extra on bends, still managing a 24.8 (12.4) finish, suggests he was in 1:42 (sub 1:43.0) shape.

Anyway, I get that you are using his actual pbs at the time, but I think he was capable of much faster. Cheers.

No way in hell you compared a 40s 400m to the other two, sub 42.5 is more equivalent...

Interesting discussion.