protecting daughter from coaches prior to the state meet

You can't interfere for poor coaching EVER. The AD knew the coach was technically poor when they hired them. All they did was pick the best of a bad lot.

saVOKMmoRT wrote:

You can't interfere for poor coaching EVER. The AD knew the coach was technically poor when they hired them. All they did was pick the best of a bad lot.

If a coach is a sexual predator then you are not going to interfere EVER? This is the observation the OP made earlier, that there is a point where as a parent you must interfere to protect your kid. (note: sexual predator is just an example)

As a rule I say good coaches are the exception, and I have respect for every person who is willing to coach my kids teams for very little pay. It would take a VERY VERY VERY bad coach before I intervened.

uber wrote:

Yeah - maybe. My wife would totally agree with you. She is ready to go nuclear.

So you are more laid back, cerebral of the parents.

The picture keeps on getting clearer.

I'm sorry but the Helicopter took off and buzzed all over me on this post. I was trying hard to give you the benefit of the doubt but you lost me with this one. I'm not a coach but am a parent to 4, 3 boys and a girl. One son still in HS, an older son and my daughter are both D1 athletes.

Where in the heck do you get off thinking you have the right to ask for a coach's workout schedule??? Do you see parents walking up to the football coach and telling him they want to talk to him about this week's practice plan and preapration for the game? Or maybe just go ahead and question him about his bad play calling?

If I was her coach I would have handled "YOU" in the exact manner he did. And after you questioned his training, its not a very far reach for him to suspect that your daughter is hearing at home "he doesn't know what he's doing" or "I would have you doing this" or various other things questioning his decisions or coaching ability. Hence why she brings a negative attitude to practice and everything else surrounding the coach.

I'm sorry but you started this with the coach. Now it has gotten worse because you don't seem to be able to grasp everyone's role here. His job is to be the coach, your job as a parent is to support your daughter, support the coach, and support the program. Your daughter's job is to train hard, respect her coaches and to run her hardest. If you or your daughter can't handle those jobs its time to quit them by finding another sport or another school. If you want to stay at your HS I would suggest a meeting where you walk in and say "I'm sorry we seemed to have gotten off on the wrong foot, I was wrong to ask about your training, and I just want my daughter to have the best experience possible running here". And then SHUT UP and don't say another word!

I've seen plenty of very talented high school athletes ruined by their helicopter parents including several friends and their children that I cared deeply about. Always back stabbing the coaches, telling their kids to do certain things contrary to what coaches instructed, pushing them to participate when injured, etc. Almost every time it played out by the time high school ended and most never played college sports. One of the best hitters I have ever seen play baseball never played after high school - amazingly in 8-10 years of playing competitive and HS baseball he "never had a coach who liked him" and "every coach was out to get him". Truth was every coach pushed him because he had real talent - but the kid was an ass, his parents were asses, and no college coach was willing to put up with the kid or the parents.

Your pages of excuses and drivel sound just like a HS girl. I had one, she runs track, and she wasn't prepared to deal with her coach the first time he "got in her face". I really thought she would be, living in a house with 3 brothers she was pretty tough. She loved (and still adores) her HS coach. She was the unknown who burst onto his practice field in 9th grade and started winning varsity meets, and he didn't know her name before. He treated her with kid gloves for a while, but one day after about a month she was being lazy at practice and he "chewed her out" (her words). She had never played any sports and had never been chewed out by a coach. She was devastated and in tears all night, she "hated" him and could not imagine him being so "mean" - she was also 14. She didn't get any sympathy from me, we had a talk that night about sports and coaches and she had to make a decision whether she wanted to be an athlete or a recreational runner. As she matured over the next 4 years she understood it all much better than she did that night in 9th grade. She became known to all the HS and college coaches in the area as an unbelievably hard worker who would do anything asked for her team. Always leading the team, leading the running group, pushing herself and others, and always with a smile on her face.

I wish you well and hope you will take a long look in the mirror.

Sorry I was trying to reply to this from Uber:

[/quote]

Solid post - thank you. Obviously, I have written enough and I don't really care to try to convince fellow letsrunners why/how I've reached the conclusion that the coach sucks. I know it doesn't make sense (and would be rare) that he would have inferiority issues from high school and take it out on my daughter, but I am not sure what else it could be. Maybe I had a better relationship with our high school coach and he is jealous about that? I don't know. Last year in xc, it was fine because my daughter was relatively untrained and any running was good training. Also, she needed to find if running was something SHE wanted (without influence from us). Turned out that she wants to do it AND has some propensity for it. Then, last track season, she starts coming home saying that there seemed to be a lack of direction. The coaches seemed to be just winging it and not on the same page with each other. I figure that she might not be right, so I ask the coach if I could have the general workout schedule (understanding that tweaks are inevitable, even encouraged, from time to time). The coach says "no". I say "really?", and that was the end of conversation. Two days later they send me an email saying that we need to meet because my daughter is not running strides fast enough. I meet with them, and while it is cordial, at the end, I say "So, do you have a plan for the season - not just the meet schedule?" They said they did. So, I asked if I could see it? And, again, they said no. I reassured them that I would not even really look at it - I just kind of doubted that it existed when I wouldn’t be allowed to see it. They said, "It exists, and no, you can't see it even for one second." Then, they say that they talked to the AD about us (WTF?! Nothing had even happened yet, not even the slow strides!), and the AD said that if XC/track is not right for your daughter, she can choose to not participate. THEN, two days later, my daughter’s science teacher, who has NOTHING to do with the program asked her to stay after class, and he said, “Hey, trust your coaches… don’t do what your parents say. Do what makes you happy.” Again, WTF?! All we ever told her was to do what the coaches ask!? Maybe since I've known the coach for a long time and didn't come groveling on hands and knees, he took it badly. Again, I don't know, and I would not be surprised at all if there are some manic or psychological issues.

Needless to say, the coaches lost a lot of credibility with us (though we have been kind, have not offered advice, and have volunteered extensively. Nevertheless, ever since then, they have consistently been dilweeds. Nothing illegal, though. With the principal and AD, they could certainly deny everything. They are grown adults enjoying messing with a young girl. It is no huge deal, and we'll be fine. But, I know they are going to say something next week about how she is lucky to make it to State meet because they don’t see that she has much talent, feel her workouts have been poor, or isn’t the skinniest skin-n-bones runner ever, or whatever it takes to try to tweak her a bit. On it's face, it’s nothing huge, but when you put it along with their body of work of everything else they have said and done throughout the season, it sucks that they derive some sort of perverse pleasure in trying to negatively get in several of their runner's heads. They could have a great team, but my daughter is not the only one that has had to overcome the coach's comments/actions.. others haven't fared as well.

Again, the ONLY reason I mentioned how some coaches have physically assaulted runners is because everyone knows that in that situation, the coach is in the wrong by abusing their positional authority/proximity. Is that the only instance where it is the coach who is wrong, or could there be other times when a coach could be at fault?[/quote]

Lub, gotta differ with you on asking about a general workout schedule. There is no reason coaches should make their training philosophy secret, unless they simply don't have one. Knowledge benefits everyone. Only insecurity from the coach makes this an issue.

As a parent I like knowing the workout schedule so I don't make doctor or dentist appts, etc. on days that are hard workout days. It's easier for a kid to do an easy run on their own than a hard workout. One of my kids also sneaks extra miles so I try to be aware of what the coach wants and at times I have to reign my kid in.

I agree with most of the rest of your comments, and enjoyed the anecdote about your daughter.

I agree with everything Lub posted. I am a HS coach and I coach track and field for the guys. I coached for the girls for 2 seasons and then I had enough. High school girls can be moody hormonal little beasts (not all, so don't get up in arms) and I just didn't want to put up with it. "Coach doesn't like me, coach plays favorites," when I would bend over backwards to treat them all as equitably as I could. Some had talent, some not so much. The ones who really made me smile were the ones who were out there busting their butts with a good attitude, no matter what their level of talent. Believe me, it's very difficult for any coach not to warm up to a kid who gives everything he or she can give and does it with a positive attitude. You've mentioned enough about your daughter to make it sound like she has a bit of a chip on her shoulder. Couple that with your over-protectiveness and intrusiveness with the coach, and I can see how she's not his favorite athlete. He should be more professional about it, but then again you aren't helping the situation. Back off and tell your daughter to respect her coach's guidance.

You have to admit it's easier to follow the guidance of a competent coach versus a terrible coach.

When I was in HS we had a neophyte XC coach who liked to have us play basketball instead of run. This was during the XC season. He always used to say if gymnasts are the best athletes and if he could get them out for XC we would be great. He said we weren't athletic enough and had us lifting weights 2-3 times per week. Needless to say we were a terrible team when it came time to run races. Fortunately my school replaced him before the next season.

oregonian #2 wrote:

Lub, gotta differ with you on asking about a general workout schedule. There is no reason coaches should make their training philosophy secret, unless they simply don't have one. Knowledge benefits everyone. Only insecurity from the coach makes this an issue.

As a parent I like knowing the workout schedule so I don't make doctor or dentist appts, etc. on days that are hard workout days. It's easier for a kid to do an easy run on their own than a hard workout. One of my kids also sneaks extra miles so I try to be aware of what the coach wants and at times I have to reign my kid in.

I agree with most of the rest of your comments, and enjoyed the anecdote about your daughter.

Completely disagree that a parent (or even a student) should automatically be involved and know the coach's training plan or schedule. Some of the best coaches I know don't share that information with their team or parents. My HS coach kept us in the dark and won 8 out of 11 state championships.

oregonian #2, you are too involved in your kid's life, simple as that. Could you imgaine if Pre's parents tried to "reign" him in?

To the OP: You are just ridiculous... no other words are needed.

Most of you reading this understand, and the fact that the OP doesn't is almost unbelievable. The OP will never understand how ridiculous they are being and for that reason, it's pointless to argue with him. I'm sure he'll skip right over this post and only address posters that agree with him.

Maybe the workout schedule is one of those things you could let your kid manage on his/her own. Not likely to involve any major life decisions; it's high school XC/T&F fer christ sakes. If the kid "sneaks in" a few too many extra miles and sucks at the next race as a result, perhaps we have experienced a teachable moment of some value.

HDT wrote:

Completely disagree that a parent (or even a student) should automatically be involved and know the coach's training plan or schedule. Some of the best coaches I know don't share that information with their team or parents. My HS coach kept us in the dark and won 8 out of 11 state championships.

oregonian #2, you are too involved in your kid's life, simple as that. Could you imgaine if Pre's parents tried to "reign" him in

There is no great HS coach that keeps their workout schedule secret from parents. Name one.

LOL at your Pre reference. My kid has a history of injuries so we are trying to keep her healthy.

Lub, I couldn't have said it better myself! Uber sounds a bit like a helicopter parent. Not the worst one I've ever heard mind you but not exactly helping his daughter find her way as a young adult.

Oregonian#2, there are ways to pleasantly talk to the coach (and your children) and from that discussion figure out what the coach's coaching philosophy/workouts are rather than asking/demanding them from them. If the coach wishes to post them that's his decision but he shouldn't feel he has to. Like Lub said, a football coach or math teacher wouldn't post them and neither should a xc coach feel he has to. Just because you had a poor coach doesn't mean all are naturally.

Uber, what year is your daughter? Does she have younger siblings? What will you do in future years? Why not just transfer schools and in the meanwhile make the most of your last week at this school with this coach?

Sanity in a Crazy World wrote:

Oregonian#2, there are ways to pleasantly talk to the coach (and your children) and from that discussion figure out what the coach's coaching philosophy/workouts are rather than asking/demanding them from them. If the coach wishes to post them that's his decision but he shouldn't feel he has to. Like Lub said, a football coach or math teacher wouldn't post them and neither should a xc coach feel he has to. Just because you had a poor coach doesn't mean all are naturally.

I've had a great relationship with all of my kids coaches. They are easy to talk to because they are competent and reasonable. I volunteer where I can and try to stay out of their way.

Just because YOU never had a poor coach does not mean they aren't out there.

BTW, ALL of my kids' HS teachers post assignments online, including the math teacher.

Running is different from football. The kids train and run better when they understand the training philosophy. The great coaches inform athletes and parents.

I wasn't trying to argue with you or say you were "wrong", just trying to say there are other ways.

As far as your last post, you assumed one thing wrong and were incorrect in another. You assumed I never had a bad coach, that's false. Most have been good, but not all. And you are incorrect in that football athletes don't need to understand training philosophy. Where did you ever hear that??

Actually ALL athletes should understand their coaches training philosophy in general terms. ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT COACHES DON'T NEED TO PST THEM.

Just because your children's teachers do, doesn't mean the rest of the world does. At our high school maybe 50% of the teachers do. I am sure all schools will be different.

uber:

I have been a high school, DIII, and DI head coach. I will state for you since it seems important to you that in the over 30 years I have been in cc/track 70% of the high school coaches are horrible. It frustrates the heck out of me since there is so much information available either on-line or in print form. There is no reason for any high school coach to not have a basic understanding of physiology and psychology. Not experts, but a basic working understanding. Of the 30% that i would consider to have some understanding at least 50% of those are jackasses. As a college coach I would never ever criticize a training program from a high school coach. Almost every high school recruit wants our opinion on their training. Have not once ever addressed that since it is not my responsibility. Yet a vast majority of high school coaches criticize collegiate training programs and their coaches. It amazes me. So to answer your question yes I agree most high school cc/track coaches shouldn't be allowed to coach.

Now on to the bigger issue. Someone earlier stated that they never had problems with the boys parents, but often had problems with the girls parents. I concur with this. Don't know why, but it is real. I had two daughters who ran high school cc/track and the coaches were so bad that my wife volunteered to be a coach on the staff and did her best to protect the kids from getting run into the ground and to keep them smiling. It was our way of trying to keep a stable environment. But I never inteferrred given I was the local college head coach.

I think the best thing for you would be to apologize to the coach and tell him that you didn't mean anything by asking to see the training program and you can see why it came off wrong. You must be the better man and try your best to do whatever you can to mend the fences. If not, I feel the situation will not be solvable. It will be hard, but swallow your pride and do this for your daughter. And then have a long hard discussion with your daughter about real life. I had one AD as a boss that after five years didn't even know my name and gave me nothing. That is real life. You can help your daughter learn valuable lessons about working in environments that are not easy. Good luck and I hope your daughter ends the season on a positive note.

Great post from DI Coach.

I think the best thing for you would be to apologize to the coach and tell him that you didn't mean anything by asking to see the training program and you can see why it came off wrong. You must be the better man and try your best to do whatever you can to mend the fences. If not, I feel the situation will not be solvable. It will be hard, but swallow your pride and do this for your daughter. And then have a long hard discussion with your daughter about real life. I had one AD as a boss that after five years didn't even know my name and gave me nothing. That is real life. You can help your daughter learn valuable lessons about working in environments that are not easy. Good luck and I hope your daughter ends the season on a positive note.

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I think you are nuts. A crap coach - if he is as UBER states, is not going to change because UBER rolled over.

If he is an ass, stick close to your daughter. HS sports is not that important. If she qualifies she runs. Sessions between now and then are irrelevant. If you've been in the game, you should know how to prepare her. If the coach is a typical average HS coach, she won't miss a beat. Interesting how boys have to step up and own it, and girls have to learn how to deal with a difficult situation.

The US makes too big a deal of HS sports and deifies coaches who shouldn't close to guiding youngsters in any occupation.

And I have competed internationally, coached internationally, and benefited from great coaches who respected and guided the person before the athlete. That's the first characteristic a coach needs to have. If a coach is making a kid uncomfortable, there will be a reason. It should be dealt with if its intentional. If its accidental it should be brought to his or her attention.

Great post bu D1 collegiate coach. I disagree the % of awful HS coaches is 70% but if you include all of the small school hick coaches in tge middle of nowhere it's fairly high, I just happen to be from Spokane so I don't see as many awful coaches. But I agree, be the better man and apologize like he said and see what happens and go from there.

oregonian #2 wrote:

Flagpole, I have to disagree with your take that parents should interfere with poor coaching or hostile environment only if their kid is potentially good enough for a college scholarship. That is absurd.

If there is a terrible mathematics or physics teacher in my kids school then other parents and myself are going to bring it to the attention of school administrators. My kid becoming a future mathemetician has nothing to do with it.

How good the kid is as an athlete should not be the focus here.

My post was ONLY about poor coaching, NOT a hostile environment. Hostile environments get different attention. Regarding bad coaching, extracurriculars don't get the same attention as academic classes.