BREAKING: Kenya is forced to setup anti doping agency in Kenya

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Where did I write anything about ignoring or inaction? I am saying I wouldn't paint an entire nation or region of the world with a large brush based on a single or small number of cases. A single or very low number of rotten apples doesn't make me think that the whole barrel is rotten.

I'd also wait a minute to see what was found in her urine. Something that has a history of showing up in contaminated supplements is one thing (and I am a supporter of the strict liability policy), while EPO is a whole different matter.

Where do you get ignorance/inaction from my comments? The process is working, is it not? Kenya was no safe haven.

I did put words in your mouth. I'll back track and let you clear up where I made my mistake.

My first post in this thread was part my claim that there is a pervasive doping culture in Kenya, that is not being regulated effectively, and that we should at least view their performances with skepticism. My goal is to bring attention to this fact.

By arguing that the 18 (and now 19) recent positives do show effective testing, or that those caught are caught for low-octane drugs (mostly steroids instead of EPO), or that those caught do not reflect the tier of runners who are breaking records, you're saying that there is no cause for alarm, and nothing below the surface.

You see Rita's and others' positives as a good indication that the process works. I take the quantity of positives, combined with the facts about ineffective testing, to conclude that there is a larger issue that is not being uncovered. I see your denial of this idea as ignoring and inaction.

I will wait until further confirmation to discuss Jeptoo. It is premature to say anything beyond that she had a positive A-sample.

But, I stand by my point that there is a culture of doping in Kenya, that threatens the integrity to the top tier of the sport right now (in addition to a culture of doping in athletics, that threatens the integrity of the whole sport, but this thread is about Kenya)

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Clerk wrote:

Rita Jeptoo.

http://www.runblogrun.com/2014/10/rita-jeptoo-tests-positive-an-exclusive-to-runblogrun-by-larry-eder.html

Like I've been saying, don't believe the hype.

When you get multiple studs from multiple coaching and management groups in Kenya going by the wayside for hard drugs, then ok. But we're not there yet.

The problem is that this is where we are and you are too blinded by the bills hit stories to realise it. The chances of having 3 people from the same training group running the top times of all time. The fact the they all have the same manager etc etc. Come in number K - your time us up.

Clerk wrote:

...you're saying that there is no cause for alarm, and nothing below the surface.

I'm not assuming that there is because of a relatively small number of cases. If there are incriminating cases from many high level athletes from different groups, then my opinion will change to fit that. Am I to assume there's something lurking beneath the surface of Welsh athletics because of Gareth Warburton and Rhys Williams?

Clerk wrote:

combined with the facts about ineffective testing

What's that based on?

Clerk wrote:

But, I stand by my point that there is a culture of doping in Kenya, that threatens the integrity to the top tier of the sport right now (in addition to a culture of doping in athletics, that threatens the integrity of the whole sport, but this thread is about Kenya)

I think you're incorrect. The fact that there's no Kenyan FDA doesn't take me to your conclusion. East Germany had a culture of doping. It still exists in certain places today, but I haven't seen anything to make me think that Kenya is one of them.

It would if evidence showed that there was an exceptional disregard for effective controls, and that they had a level of success that was suspiciously tied to their lack of controls.

What's that based on?[/quote]

I'm not going to rehash my posts on this thread, but as a reminder: no-OOC blood tests, ineffectiveness of urine tests for EPO, 80 derivatives of EPO, no NADO, testimony that sanctioned athletes were taking more than what they got caught for.

That's one piece of it. The entire picture is that there is a doping culture in Kenya. More and more examples of their success are being shown to be because of this culture of doping.

Evidence like?

You keep saying that but I am not convinced. East Germany had a doping culture. Compare that with Kenya.

So, because doping controls are a problem everywhere, Kenya is clean?

so clerk, a kenyan tests positive for EPO in an out of competition urine test.

Doesn't exactly support your case that kenyan anti doping controls are weak and urine tests aren't very effective.

Jeptoo's agent says B-sample testing won't be necessary. From another article linked on the front page.

"Athletics Kenya said its medical and anti-doping commission would meet with Jeptoo early next week to determine whether she wants to have her backup "B" sample tested.

However, Rosa told the AP that the backup test was not required.

"We will legally go after the person or the people that convinced Rita to do this," Rosa said, adding Jeptoo's management had "nothing to do with" any doping.

"I am sorry for Rita," he said."

Post on T&FNews board

Are you serious? I spend all thread explaining that there is rampant doping in Kenya, and an A-list Kenyan EPO positive shows I'm wrong?

I don't want to take the sarcastic tone used so often on this forum, but you are missing the forest for the trees.

Clerk wrote:

Are you serious? I spend all thread explaining that there is rampant doping in Kenya, and an A-list Kenyan EPO positive shows I'm wrong?

I don't want to take the sarcastic tone used so often on this forum, but you are missing the forest for the trees.

You've been making the case that it's an easy place for athletes in the registered pool to use drugs because testing is insufficient compared to what exists in Europe and America.

Clerk wrote:

Are you serious? I spend all thread explaining that there is rampant doping in Kenya, and an A-list Kenyan EPO positive shows I'm wrong?

I don't want to take the sarcastic tone used so often on this forum, but you are missing the forest for the trees.

Well - I was just trying to salvage a little dignity there.

But the number of a list Kenyans to be caught is "2"

Or one, really.

But (part 2) clearly Kenyan testing is not worthless.and either is urine testing.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Clerk wrote:

Are you serious? I spend all thread explaining that there is rampant doping in Kenya, and an A-list Kenyan EPO positive shows I'm wrong?

I don't want to take the sarcastic tone used so often on this forum, but you are missing the forest for the trees.

You've been making the case that it's an easy place for athletes in the registered pool to use drugs because testing is insufficient compared to what exists in Europe and America.

I have been making the case that there is a doping culture in Kenya. I have had to counter the argument that the 18 positive tests show that all of the doping has been detected, and that there could be no underlying problem. I explained that the quantity of positives is no garuntee of their accuracy, and that the problem is likely more severe than demonstrates by those tests.

One more positive does not negate that.

Finally, I belive I only have one post where I bring up the US or Europe, in which mostly had to do with the number of tests. To be clear, I still think it is easy to dope in these countries. (My first post on this thread was a continuation of another where I discussed with agip that the culture of most sporting success is rooted in doping)

Renato and Runthemhillsboy, tomo awendi kenya? Ongen akot Iten.

Unfortunately we need to have a skeptical view of performances. We've seen in other sports that unbelievable performances usually are just that, not to be believed. What are clubs, camps, teams, etc. doing to be proactive in anti-doping... that is what we need. I don't have much faith we are seeing sufficient testing, particularly in Kenya where it is easy to hide under the rocks.

Renato, you say you have full confidence that your athletes are clean. As a coach you can't say this. You can only say you have advised them against doping and of the consequences that come from it.

My hypothetical scenario isn't reality? Have you read/seen any of the books and movies about systematic doping? My hypothesis isn't any miles off these programs.

Finally, I'm a little baffled by your constant impatience of people questioning performances and the testing system in place. It's better to have people calling for more testing and certainty of a clean sport than to leave it be and let any number of people, big or small, slip through the testing system.

The title of this thread doesn't describe the reality very well. The truth is that the political situation in Kenya now makes it is possible to set up a national anti doping agency there. The minister of Sport has agreed to set it up and WADA, in the form of the Norwegian and Chinese anti doping agencies are helping setting it up. They have been waiting four years for the right political situation in Kenya.

The leader of the Norwegian Anti-Doping Agency says that foreign coaches and agents that comes to Kenya to recruit runners to make money of them is a big part of the doping problem in Kenya.

Karlssons Klyster wrote:

The leader of the Norwegian Anti-Doping Agency says that foreign coaches and agents that comes to Kenya to recruit runners to make money of them is a big part of the doping problem in Kenya.

This is as clear as day. Which is why I was shocked when people of otherwise great repute claimed it was a Kenyan problem and tried to pin it on Kenyan rural doctors who spend their days treating malaria. Once in a while, when they're lucky, excitement and a break from monotony comes in the way of typhoid.