Which was more impressive Killians Hardrock CR or Emma Coburn's AR

Not bashing ultras and trails at all. But as a long time runner there is an in-your-face arrogance among some trail types, when actually traditional events at track cross country, or roads are more competitive. And don't even get me started on the hobby jogger "participants" at marathon and beyond. 3:40 to 5:XX marathoners who think they and their buds are a gift to running.

yuiop wrote:

Finally, Collin, you are underestimating what it takes to run 5:00 pace for a marathon. I suspect that Kilian doesn't think he could ever do this. Not a knock on him, but as other have pointed out, he has a different skill set.

There's no evidence that Kilian could run even one mile in under five minutes. I think that Carpenter could barely break five (4:59) in high school, and by all accounts he was much faster than Kilian. Carpenter's average for all the flat marathons he tried is somewhere around 2:50. There is a reason why these guys don't race Bolder Boulder or other massive mainstream events; they know where their bread is buttered and don't want to take a hit to their image. Someone who trains as much as these guys, and who loves running, usually jump into a race because it's there. XC, marathon, turkey trot, whatever. But the risk is that when you've been bragging about your 90+ VO2 and then post a 17:30 and get chicked by a 14 year old with braces and braids, everyone knows what's up.

So your logic is because someone you think is faster than someone else, couldn't break a 5 minute mile (you "think") in HS which was how long ago? The brain power of some of you is just amazing.

Killian doesn't like road running so why would he run a regular marathon? A turkey trot? They have these in Europe?

To all the delusional numbskulls who keep writing that Kilian can run sub four and sub 28 and 2:10:

That is as fast as Olympic gold medal winner Frank Shorter.

And faster than two time Olympic gold medalist Abebe Bikila.

And three minutes faster than four time Olympic gold medalist Lasse Viren.

Get your heads out of your butts!!!

These ridiculous claims alone let me know that what Emma did is infinitely more impressive than Kilian.

Wow, so if people posting speculative times makes you think that what Emma did was "infinitely" more impressive, you sir are an idiot.

There is arrogance and bashing on both sides. I've been bashed on here for moving up to ultras but I've also taken a beating on iRunFar (ultra running website) from runners in the community there. People who haven't done these events are quick to judge...That being said I have raced in both arenas from 800m on the track to 65 miles in the mountains (note I have actually not done a steeple because I suck at jumping and I have also not done a 100-miler).As I mentioned earlier, any distance event is just plain hard and if you really push your body to the max it really hurts! It doesn't matter if it's a flat road or track or you are bonking/powerhiking up a 14er. But just because ultras are longer doesn't make them harder or more impressive (in my opinion). A bad day can get exponentially bad in the longer races but the pain is still different. There's still an eating contest element to it (really!) and thinking about all the variables at play like hydration and pacing. These are very different from the intense lactic acid burn feeling/pain that you get on the track which is also very painful. As far as comparing Killian's time to Carpenter or high level marathon runners? Well, Collin you seem to just focus on 92 Vo2max value which if you know about what it actually takes to run a sub 2:20 marathon that actually doesn't mean a whole lot. I believe Frank Shorter had around 72 for a Vo2max. The real key here (and I will say it again) is Running Economy (lactate threshold velocity is also important of course) on variable terrain.This is why Killian's musculature likely would not be suited for flat/fast running and it's the same reason that a lot of speedy track guys aren't going to dominate a race like Speedgoat (because they aren't used to steep grades and haven't developed the musculature as well as neuromuscular pathways to powerhike really well). I'm not a speedy track guy by any means, but I'm also very vulnerable at a race like Speedgoat. I'd much rather race a guy like Krupicka at the White River 50-miler where all the climbs are at least runnable and you can actually hold a running clip of 7min miles.As far as not running at Loon this year I've had to pick and choose my battles. I've learned that mixing it up between 12km mountain races and 100km ultras (all with very different course profiles) has me coming out a bit flat in a lot of races (i.e. Mt. WA, Lake Sonoma, Transvulcania). I had a spring where I was doing an ultra nearly every month and honestly my fitness was my best probably at Tarawera this March because I was coming off Carlsbad Marathon training and actual quality stuff. It's a nasty cycle of: Race, 1 week recovery, 2 weeks of training, 1 week of taper, Race! Speedgoat (as a major HOKA sponsored event) has been on my radar all year so racing Loon just wasn't in the cards this year. Also, if I'm going to travel internationally I'd also much rather do a longer ultra-mountain race! Worlds were going to be in Italy again this year and honestly last time I went there it ran more like a cross country course type of race and I got smoked (although I will note I finished ahead of Joe Gray and Rob Krar). Considering I was about 1:30 ahead of Zach at Mt. WA this year I'd like to think I could've made the Mtn team this year if I tried but with the downhills and very steep Upper Walking boss i honestly don't know. We'll (Joe Gray, Zach, Eric Blake) all be on a team together at the Pikes Peak Ascent this year instead (another humbling race for me). And Zach Miller has some serious strength! I would still say he should focus on ultras though because look what he did to Rob Krar and I at Lake Sonoma. To me, it's all just the sport of Distance Running. But the track and road "cultures" are often frowned upon in the Mountain-Ultra-Trail scene (and vice-versa). I should also note that within MUT Running there is a pretty big division between what a "trail" race is and what a "mountain" race is as the course profile and terrain (and even altitude) means everything...even more than the actual distance. The Euro scene is a totally different ballgame as are the SkyRunning events and mountains in the US vs trails in the PNW and the East. Totally niche, but pretty fun to mix it up as well!

Carpenter is a great runner however Collin tell me this: Where did he run 2:18? He ran 2:19:44. Very big difference. Killian wouldn't break 2:30.

The current top US Mt. Runners like Max King, Joe Gray, Sage Canaday are much more talented than Carpenter but they will never break his ascent record for one simple factor. There were not many course marshalls when Carpenter ran that time. Did he cut? Maybe

Look at any of his other times in comparison with other greats like Ricardo Mejia, Sage, Gray, King, Correa, DeGasperi, wyatt. These guys have run much faster than Matt on many courses, many of them have waaay faster PR's, many of them run well at altitude but somehow Matt's record is so much faster than what they have or could attain on pikes. hmmm something just doesn't add up to me. I've lived in COS for 20+ years and I can tell you, there are plenty of spots to cut the course if there were no marshals despite what some may say.

Emma>Killian btw. Cheers

Carpenter was a good college cross country runner at Mississippi State, All-American maybe. Not top 10 but top 30 or 40, ca. 1986-87.

Oops, yeah, my apologies. 2:19, not 2:18, but come on. Cutting the course? He ran Pike's Peak faster because he was really really good at altitude. The dude crushed annihilated world-class Kenyans (that lived above 8000') in high-altitude marathons. Would you also suggest that he cut at Leadville?

NW by NW wrote:

Carpenter was a good college cross country runner at Mississippi State, All-American maybe. Not top 10 but top 30 or 40, ca. 1986-87.

No, he wasn't. Not even top 30 or 40 in the SEC. He might have SEEN an All-American, but....

You're wrong wrote:

NW by NW wrote:

Carpenter was a good college cross country runner at Mississippi State, All-American maybe. Not top 10 but top 30 or 40, ca. 1986-87.

No, he wasn't. Not even top 30 or 40 in the SEC. He might have SEEN an All-American, but....

Here are the flat marathons pulled off of Carpenter's website:

4/11/92: US Olympic Marathon Trials in Columbus, OH — 50th place in 2:32:26 I finished!

11/11/90: Columbus Marathon — 2:32:08 for 77th

9/13/90: VO2 tested at the Colorado Springs Olympic Training Center at 90.2

1/10/90: First run on my new Quinton Q65 Treadmill

4/18/83: Boston Marathon - 2:41:09 - 867th

12/4/82: Mississippi Marathon - 2:41:23 - 73rd

12/12/81: Mississippi Marathon - 3:11:11 63rd

His average mainstream marathon is ~2:43. And everyone says that Matt is faster than Kilian. So Kilian would be up there with some pretty good (not the best) high school girls.

Yeah, Emma is way more impressive.

If a guy ran a 9:12 Steeple over the baby barriers you guys would laugh at him if he claimed he was a much better runner than Kilian.

Because it wouldn't be true.

Captain Oblivious wrote:

If a guy ran a 9:12 Steeple over the baby barriers you guys would laugh at him if he claimed he was a much better runner than Kilian.

Because it wouldn't be true.

that is the most compelling post yet in this thread, however it strays from the assertion that her AR is more impressive than Kilian's CR, not that she is objectively better, faster etc.

nbskis wrote:

Captain Oblivious wrote:

If a guy ran a 9:12 Steeple over the baby barriers you guys would laugh at him if he claimed he was a much better runner than Kilian.

Because it wouldn't be true.

that is the most compelling post yet in this thread, however it strays from the assertion that her AR is more impressive than Kilian's CR, not that she is objectively better, faster etc.

Well, you're wrong about that. A 9:12 steeple over baby barriers by anyone is better than anything that Kilian can do. Emma is more impressive than Kilian. Numerous junior high girls are more impressive athletes than Kilian.

Too Much Lone Star wrote:

You're wrong wrote:

No, he wasn't. Not even top 30 or 40 in the SEC. He might have SEEN an All-American, but....

Here are the flat marathons pulled off of Carpenter's website:

4/11/92: US Olympic Marathon Trials in Columbus, OH — 50th place in 2:32:26 I finished!

11/11/90: Columbus Marathon — 2:32:08 for 77th

9/13/90: VO2 tested at the Colorado Springs Olympic Training Center at 90.2

1/10/90: First run on my new Quinton Q65 Treadmill

4/18/83: Boston Marathon - 2:41:09 - 867th

12/4/82: Mississippi Marathon - 2:41:23 - 73rd

12/12/81: Mississippi Marathon - 3:11:11 63rd

His average mainstream marathon is ~2:43. And everyone says that Matt is faster than Kilian. So Kilian would be up there with some pretty good (not the best) high school girls.

Yeah, Emma is way more impressive.

The 3:11 in 81 and 2:41 in 82 would've been in high school. Where was the 2:19.

Oooh, Magnetic, should have left off that final line there, it reveals your inner retard.

Since Marco de Gasperi's name has come up a couple times I thought I should mention that he's a drug cheat. At least, his wife was convicted, and seeing as how he never really spoke out about that (as far as I know, which is why I'm leaving this anonymous) I think he is too. That would have given me more comfort the time that he kicked my ass at Mt. Washington except that lots of other (clean) guys did too. ;)

Magnetic wrote:

nbskis wrote:

that is the most compelling post yet in this thread, however it strays from the assertion that her AR is more impressive than Kilian's CR, not that she is objectively better, faster etc.

Well, you're wrong about that. A 9:12 steeple over baby barriers by anyone is better than anything that Kilian can do. Emma is more impressive than Kilian. Numerous junior high girls are more impressive athletes than Kilian.

No. I would bet that even 8:30 Steeple guys know that Kilian is better than them.

This thread is stupid and played out. There is not one shred of evidence that Journet can run a five minute mile. As of now, he is the athletic equal of a hot dog eating contest winner.

Hypothetically, what would the effects of doping be at high altitudes? It would seem like a huge risk to take. Going to 20,000+ feet. I would think that you would want to know how your body really feels and reacts and if you add EPO into the mix, maybe you won't know this.

Example, if he's going to Denali, Aconcagua, Everest. Wouldn't EPO make the blood thick? Put him at risk if he gets dehydrated? He went up Denali with only one liter of water. I don't know much about this.