If a 5K is so aerobic, then why do so much speedwork?

i guarantee it maybe wrote:

sound of silence wrote:

Thanks to refers an 800m runner, something that Lydiard doesnt consider.

Yeah, like Lydiard never trained anyone who ran 800 meters.

.

No, like Lydiard did train 800m runners the same way he did marathon runners.

Anyhow with your 30x200m in 28s and 3x2000m i see you dont understand the problem. It´s not with equal rest. What do you mean by equal rest ? For example 30X200m with 30secs rest it´s 15min total rest - 14:30 in reality.

Yeah I must have missed that having equal rest after running for 28 seconds comes out to 7 minutes and 15 seconds.[/quote]

Yeah you miss it.

Lydiard says up to eight minutes recoveries between long repetitions. Another reason i think everyone can be the maker of champions. If he did that way everybody can do. It just depends of the runner talent.

From New England Runner. March/April 2000 edition, page 30-31

The World According to Lydiard

(…) I have heard that the Moroccans are using my system but they have lengthened it, taking even long recovery between repetitions. They take up to eight minute recoveries between long repetitions. You people shorten it. You keep the pressure and you don’t get the arterial ph level you can get taking longer intervals of recovery and doing longer repetitions. That’s the way I do it. (…)

For someone who claims to know Lydiard better than me, you sure make a lot of factual mistakes, and jump to false conclusions.As I said above, the general training (base training and hills) for 800m and marathon runners is the same, but specific training is customized for the athlete and his event.The Moroccans, not Lydiard, made it 8 minutes. As we can read, Lydiard said that was different than the way he did it. (Once again I point out you made at least 7 mistakes in transcribing the quote. For example, the article says "That's the way to do it", not "That's the way I do it.") But the important point to take away is that they should be complete recoveries.

As I said beforoe, Lydiard did not usually get into the details of how long the rep and recovery, or how fast, or how many, usually saying "Run one, jog one". The details didn't matter, as long as there was a high volume, and a lowering of pH, and then 48 hours of recovery.

Furthermore, I'm sure you'll love this, but he considered anaerobic interval training the least important aspect of training. For example, if time was short, and the racing was long, you could skip the interval work completely, and just race yourself into shape.

sound of silence wrote:

i guarantee it maybe wrote:

Yeah I must have missed that having equal rest after running for 28 seconds comes out to 7 minutes and 15 seconds.

Yeah you miss it.

Lydiard says up to eight minutes recoveries between long repetitions.

No dumdum. Equal rest means equal rest.

Run 28 seconds, rest 28 seconds. Equal rest, see.

Run 6:00, rest 6:00. Equal rest, see.

An 800 runner will have an easier time with the former.

A distance runner will have an easier time with the latter.

So much for your theory.

sound of silence wrote:

"I have (sic) heard that (sic) the Moroccans are using my system but they have (sic) lengthened it

He heard the Portugues were using his system, of not running intervals, oh except, they ran intervals all the time.

He heard the Moroccans were using his system, oh except, they trained with intervals too, quite a bit like the Portuguese runners.

Lydiard heard this, Lydiard heard that.

I heard Lydiard dipped in the sauce a few too many times

What lydiard didn't realize was the enormous boost drugs give the runner (26:27 ten k -I say bullcrap) just like Barry Bonds (76 home runs -bullcrap). Moral of the story: didn't matter whether the Morocans were takeing 8 minutes or 4 minutes between intervals.... they got their talent through EPO...Bonds got his through steroids....both the Morocans and Bonds are low life scum.

Lydiard had all the runners eat "jam butties" before running.

Ya know what jam butties stands for don't ya?

The fastest Moroccan 10K is 26:38, of Salah Hissou in 1996.Mohammed Mourhit ran 26:52 in 1999 (later tested positive for EPO).Abderrahim Goumri ran 27:02 in 2005.Hicham El Guerrouj set his 1500m record in 1998, and continued to run good times up to 2004.EPO didn't help the Moroccans that much, before or after 2000.Everyone gives drugs too much credit.

jayzee jerzee wrote:

What lydiard didn't realize was the enormous boost drugs give the runner (26:27 ten k -I say bullcrap) just like Barry Bonds (76 home runs -bullcrap). Moral of the story: didn't matter whether the Morocans were takeing 8 minutes or 4 minutes between intervals.... they got their talent through EPO...Bonds got his through steroids....both the Morocans and Bonds are low life scum.

wellnow wrote:

OhTeeSee wrote:

wellnow,

I enjoy your input, I would be interested in reading your ideas on exercises, drills etc to improve muscular power specific too pure speed.

cheers

Well thanks, but I'm sorry, I don't know much about drills.

So just the skipping drills then? The one step plan to prosperity?

Wrong transcript. It’s my fault but involuntary since is done import from scanner digital image to text via ORC software.Anyhow I think that the main stuff of Lydiard idea is not betrayed by some little wrong transcript. This time I try to type myself and if any transcription mistake persists, post it the good way.(…) I’ve heard the Moroccans are using my system but they’ve lengthened it, taking even longer recovery between repetitions. They take up to eight minute recoveries between long repetitions. You people shorten it. You keep the pressure on and you don’t get the low arterial ph level you can get with taking longer intervals (of recovery) and doing longer repetitions. That’s the way to do it. (…)

rekrunner wrote:

The Moroccans, not Lydiard, made it 8 minutes. (...) "That's the way to do it", not "That's the way I do it.") But the important point to take away is that they should be complete recoveries.

"That's the way to do it", but he doesn´t ! ?

rekrunner wrote:

But the important point to take away is that they should be complete recoveries.

I see….You miss to understand the basics of training. It’s why you think Lydiard it’s right and I’m wrong.

Complete recoveries don't get each single interval (one single fast distance)out of the anaerobic zone. It's what you don't understand. You may do 48 hours interval in between one single interval and the other (I hope 48 hours it’s complete recovery for you). Each one of the sets separate 48 hours doesn’t go out of the anaerobic zone. The longer you recover down to complete recovery doesn’t take each interval single set out of the anaerobic zone but the contrary. If you go kind of your best effort for the distance the longer intervals able to go more deeply into the anaerobic zone because long recovery able faster pace and faster pace more anaerobic. On the contrary shorter recovery enable faster pace an consequently it’s more aerobic.

2 1500m runs with 48hours recovery (between each one) is more anaerobic than 20X150m with 30seconds recovery.

rekrunner wrote:

Furthermore, I'm sure you'll love this, but he considered anaerobic interval training the least important aspect of training. For example, if time was short, and the racing was long, you could skip the interval work completely, and just race yourself into shape.

I don’t love it, I’m sad. So many people trusts in such poor unbalanced training.

Then the name is wrong. It's not anaerobic interval training, it’s not anaerobic neither training. Training it’s an organized stimulus based in methodology and this Lydiard don’t. It’s chaotic training the fast way.

rekrunner wrote:

The general base-building and hill training phases are the same for 800m to marathon athletes, but once "track (anaerobic) training" started, the training becomes specific to the athlete and his event.

rekrunner wrote:

Furthermore, I'm sure you'll love this, but he considered anaerobic interval training the least important aspect of training. For example, if time was short, and the racing was long, you could skip the interval work completely, and just race yourself into shape.

Good...good. First you say that during the anaerobic training the training becomes more specific to the athelete and his event.

Later you say that Lydiard considered anaerobic interval training the least important aspect of training and that if time was short, and the racing was long, you could skip the interval work completely, and just race yourself into shape.

Training individualisation for different runners and different events requires accuracy, attention, discipline, one precise plan, not skip the workout, just trace yourself into shape.

I see. Lydiard individualisation it's let it be. In fact Lydiard doesn't training individualisation indeed.

OhTeeSee wrote:

So just the skipping drills then? The one step plan to prosperity?

No, Choo Choo, there's a lot more to it than that. I was just telling you about one very small but very important aspect of running, the push off phase.

Antonio, what on Earth are you blathering on about?

wellnow wrote:

Antonio, what on Earth are you blathering on about?

First of all im not antonio. im sound of silence. Is that wellnow your name ? is rekrunner his or her name ? i dont intend to answer questions out my registered name.

Once again I post the first transcriptioon. I hope that this time it doesn´t transcription mistakes.

New England Runner, page 30

(…) Young people before they go through that fast grow stage, have highly sensitive nervous systems. They can’t stand a lot of pressure – which comes from anaerobic work – which is exactly what is being done in the US and the opposite of what the Africans are doing – the Kenyans, Ethiopians, Moroccans.

You (Americans) use a lot of anaerobic training without understanding anaerobic training and this is your problem. You think that by putting a kid on the track and running 20 400-meters fast that you’re going to make a champion. In the long run, you destroy them. I’ve always said that if there was an Olympic medal for running 20 400-meters no one could beat the Americans. (…)

Wellnow. So many times you discuss about what’s aerobic and what’s anaerobic with your own individual opinion.

Are you able to deny that Lydiard doesn’t say that 20X400m fast is anaerobic training ? Everyone of you is able to dismiss me that Lydiard doesn’t say that 20X400m fast pace is anaerobic ? Everyone is able to deny such evidence ?

Some might say he speaks about in special situation. Young Americans doing wrong. It true. Some say it’s one different context, the young Americans and the Moroccans. Some say it’s equal recovery, some say it shall be done complete recovery, some say it depends of the pace. Some say it´s the ph.

Nothing of this is relevant or changes what Lydiard says. He says that 20X400m is anaerobic.

sound of silence wrote:

Are you able to deny that Lydiard doesn’t say that 20X400m fast is anaerobic training ? Everyone of you is able to dismiss me that Lydiard doesn’t say that 20X400m fast pace is anaerobic ? Everyone is able to deny such evidence ?

What if he did? That still doesn´t mean that Lydiard understood sports physiology.

Yes Antonio, I mean sound of silence, you are right, 20x 400 is not anaerobic, its mostly aerobic. But the problem with this misumderstanding is that very few people know this, so Lydiard was repeating the popular misconception of the 'anaerobic threshold' which actually refers to the intensity of exercize where the proportion of carbohydrate metabolism to fat metabolism becomes 100% carbs and 0% fat. But most of that carbohydrate is further metabolized aerobically.

Now the important part for training purposes is how fast should a young 5000m runner do that session and how often?