Distance runners with sub-50 400m speed?

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

Wait, now you have me completely confused. The "whole moving up in distance thing annoys" you??? ISN'T THAT YOUR ENTIRE THESIS HERE?? That we should take guys who would naturally be middle distance runners (47-49 400 speed, who would usually either run the the 400, 800, or maybe the mile) and turn them into 5k, 10k guys so we can find one or two of them who can run with Bekele?? I thought was you entire idea, so why does it annoy you?

You've lost me now.

Yeah, it's a little confusing. I'll clear it up. The topic I started was "what would happen if *fast* people moved up to long races (instead of staying with sprints)". That scenario wouldn't annoy me.

What annoys me is the attitude in the U.S. that puts people in events they are clearly not cut out for (Sara Hall in the 1500m, for example), instead of starting them off where they should have been in the first place. About 3/4 through their career comes the announcement that they're 'moving up in distance' because they're getting older, slower, or whatever, when the truth is they just couldn't psychologically handle being a *slow* longer distance runner in their prime. It's the same attitude I'm railing against by starting this thread.

Kara Goucher is a great example as well. It's very well known that she fought the move to the 10000m, and the move to the half, and the move to the marathon, when it's obvious she should have developed at the 5000m and 10000m in college, and moved to the roads (half and full marathon) after.

The attitude that the shorter and faster your race, the better you are as an athlete is pervasive in the U.S., and the only way it will change is to get a few men and women who can compete at the world level in the 5000m, 10000m, and on the roads to strip away the "shame of the long distance runner".

Last year at the Missouri State Meet Darwin Price won the 800/1600/3200-1:54.39/4:12.66/9:15.27 and split a 48.8 on the 4x400m prelims on day 1.

Even more impressive was the week before at sectionals he stepped straight from the finish line of the 3200m into the bullpen for the 4x400 where he anchored his team into the state meet with a very fast split.

This past fall as a freshmen he ran low 25's for the 8k in XC. He is one of those select few Runner's that could choose to focus on any range of events from the 400 on up with his combination of Incredible Speed and Strength.

Well Coe only won one UK college championship as a student, the 400 in a time of 46.9, he also used to run early season 200s for his club in Sheffield.

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Why are you assuming that Bekele's talent lies in his oxygen transport system?

Paula Radcliffe asserts in her autobiography, that no matter how hard she trains or how long she spends at altitude, her blood counts remain normal. Blood counts are not the issue unless you are using EPO or some other illegal method, and even then, the advantages are likely to be small.

Talent is in your head. All the best runners have unshakeable self belief. And no matter what you say to them, you can't change their self belief. And a runner without self belief can't be reassured that they have talent, even if you know that they are as physically gifted as a much faster runner, you can't get them to believe it no matter how hard you try.

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Obviously to be a top sprinter you need the white muscle fibers in large amounts. In distance running there is no such muscle fiber delineation.

Does altitude training make distance runners more economical? That seems to be the case. At 8000ft there is 25% less oxygen than at sea level, but the best 10k runners are only 5% slower at that distance. So, when running at altitude, a distance runner is able to retain much of his or her skill despite a lack of oxygen. I realize that this information is a bit too technical for you, but I thought I would tell you anyway.

Also, most lowlanders have altitude adaptive genes.

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

If the "US is the place to be if you are sprinter, remind me again why virtually no white americans (and there are PLENTY that start out sprinting and like sprinting) ever become superstar sprinters? I mean, it's the "place to be" to be a sprinter....but I guess only if you are a black who ancestry can be traced to west africa?

......

Keep searching for your white Bekele. When you give up looking for him, you can start searching for your white Bolt. Good luck!

1st paragraph: Why are is there a shortage of white superstar sprinters? Well, first let's realize that there is a shortage of superstars in the first place. Thats why they are superstars. And I'd say that culturally, there are many more blacks involved in sprinting than whites, so that would explain the domination.

2nd paragraph: "Keep searching for your white Bekele"? What does that even mean? Because last time I checked, there was only one BLACK Bekele, one Bekele period. He's the only one of his kind currently. He is heads and shoulders above anyone including other Africans. Just like there have been times when the only ones of their kind where white (60s, 70s, 80s).

But if you somehow meant, keep searching for your world class distance runners, then I've already found them. Craig Mottram, Bob Kennedy, and Alan Webb are arguably just as good at 5k/3k (sub 13,sub 7:35) as the majority of the current Africans, Bekele excluded.

There is no point debating this subject with him, he is obsessed with the idea of genetic superiority, whatever that is supposed to mean.

100 years ago, his like were supporters of eugenics, and proposing the elimination of genetically inferior people. Also during the 30 year domination of distance runners from Finland, he would have argued that they were faster because they were genetically superior.

wellnow wrote:

There is no point debating this subject with him, he is obsessed with the idea of genetic superiority, whatever that is supposed to mean.

100 years ago, his like were supporters of eugenics, and proposing the elimination of genetically inferior people. Also during the 30 year domination of distance runners from Finland, he would have argued that they were faster because they were genetically superior.

Look, clearly you are an idiot, I don't think anyone other than you would argue THAT point. But let's review your latest gem of a post anyway:

* Because I think that certain parts of the globe are more likely to have produced people with a little more natural talent for running than other parts of the globe, this makes me equal to supporters of eugenics?? Talk about a leap of logic. No, I don't believe in such practices, and would even spare a mental defect such as yourself.

* And I ALREADY answered your little "finland" argument (which is very weak) in this thread. Short term memory loss? I said that people often try to make that false argument. They state that at different times in recent history there have been other nations as dominant in distance running as the east africans are today, except.......IT >>> ISN'T >>> TRUE.

Here is my challenge to you:

1) Show us all an all-time list from the 50's, 60's, or 70's, where 98% of the top 25 all-time performers in all distance events from 3k-marathon were from one region of the globe (like they are today from east africa). Let's say, to use your example, did Scandinavia/Nordic countries ever produce such dominance of the all-time lists? Nope. You can't come close to finding such a dominance in the past by one small region of the globe.

2) And then find me a time where one small region of the globe has dominated world cross-country team competition the way kenya and ethiopia have the last 10 years, in BOTH MEN'S AND WOMEN'S competitions. Once again, you can't do it.

3) And then find a time in history when every men's distance record from 800 -marathon was held by men from one small region of the globe like they are today by men from east africa (except El G in the 1500, and Lagat is right behind him). Once again, you can't do it.

4) And there has never been such a gap between the top stars from one region of the globe and the rest of the world like there is today between east africa and everyone else (except occasionally north africa). To have the closest european nearly a minute behind Bekele and Geb in the 10k is mind-boggling. There has never been such a gap. Never.

The dominance of the east africans of the last 15 year has never been seen. Not even close. So your "Finland" argument falls, really, really flat.

Nice try though!

To be fair, there is really only a 30 second gap (in the 10k) between Europe/USA and the African nations. The majority of Africans run slower than 26:45 while other nations have runners running on the edge of 27. Geb and Bekele are heads and shoulders above the Africans themselves. The rest of the Africans arent that far ahead of the rest of the world.

Two current distance runners i know of who can run sub-50 for 400 are Asbel kiprop(He has run 1.44 for 800) and Augstine Choge.Both have raced in several 12K cross country races this season therefore can be classed as distance runners.

You bore me with your pseudo-intellectual pontifications Sir Wanks-alot. Your latter day Eugenics arguments don't impress me. Back in the 1930's, proponents of Eugenics thought that they were speaking the undeniable truth also.

East African dominance will not last for ever.

Altitude training and running economy, what's the connection?

Do some real research.

If distance running success is just a formula such as you say, correct training (altitude etc) and belief I'm sure the world lists would be equally ditributed; But they're not, they're dominated by East Africans.

Pointing out differences in people as Sir Lance Alot did is not advocating Eugenics.

It's the way he argues, which is very dogmatic.

Also your point doesn't hold up. The Rift Valley is one of the best places to nurture running talent, it has the altitude, the weather and the right mix of terrain. Added to that are the cultural opportunities for runners which don't exist in many other countries. Running as a career is an accepted lifestyle in Kenya and Ethiopia, but not in most other countries.

But my point was that the effects of altitude on running economy i.e. less oxygen uptake for a given pace, needs to be investigated more thoroughly. Previously it was widely believed that the advantage of altitude was an increase in oxygen carrying capacity - an increase in red blood cells, but this idea has been dismissed by much recent research.

XY wrote:

If distance running success is just a formula such as you say, correct training (altitude etc) and belief I'm sure the world lists would be equally ditributed; But they're not, they're dominated by East Africans.

The East Africans wouldn't dominate the world lists if the rest of the world was using the same formula. They are a much more in running shape as a nation than Americans and Europeans are due to culture. Thats part of their formula. Let alone the altitude training, training methods, and training camps that the East Africans are a part of.

What Americans do you know would put their lives into running and not just a couple hours a day?

You cant deny that that is why they are so much more dominant.

Running is accepted in Kenya?ethiopia because they are so good at it and they are relatively poor.

There are many other places in the world at altitude, and if inhabitants of those other places were successful as the Rift Valley, you can be sure it would be an acceptable career there also. But there not

By the way, health care, nutrition, life expectancy are not great in the Rift valley, so your mythical Sangri La of running does apply.

It's strange France must have the same "nurturing" environment as the Rift Valley, ....oh wait those world class Frenchmen are all of African decent.

Why does the rest of the world only nuture sprinters of West African decnt, ..sounds unfair to me.

Corrections

Kenya/Ethiopia

Shangri La does not apply

West African decent

Thank you for pointing that out.

The argument that "geez, if I could have just been born in east africa, with all the soft surfaces to run on, the altitude, the practice of running back and forth to school, the lack of modern distractions, and the poverty to make me want to push real hard, damn.... I could have been a Bekele too!" is just silly. This romantic notion of growing up in east africa as the perfect place to be a runner is absurd. How many potential Bekeles or Gebs have died of starvation? of malnutrition? or AIDS? or Malaria? Or have been lost to the strife that has often existed in these nations? I bet a few. How many potential american bekele's or geb's have been lost to baseball, or football ( a common argument I hear) ? I guarantee you none. (and don't forget, Geb's dad tried to forbid him from trying to become a runner. He needed him to work on his farm. I am sure that happens to lots of little johnies in the USA who want to join their jr high x-c team)

In fact, the current resurgence of US distance running is attributed to by some(including wejo) ...THE INTERNET! Wait, I thought that only growing up dirt poor in a shack could hep one become a great runner, and modern technology can only hurt?

Of course poverty is a motivation to work hard, but the drive to push oneself, and be the best comes from within, and I have seen plenty of runners who grew up in the USA or europe in middle class backgrounds push themselves as hard as any athletes from africa. No one pushed harder than Salazar, and I doubt many surpassed Coe's drive to win (there are countless other examples). And plenty of non-african marathoners did as much or more mileage than any african has ever done. And Lance Armstrong is another example of white middle class kid who developed a drive to train hard, push himself, suffer, and to win as high as any african runner ever had. The will to win doesn't need poverty (though that might help). The will to win and push oneself comes from ego and the will to power.

It is also pure coincidental that the 2 fastest americans in the 10k ever are both from east africa, and the fastest marathoner is north african, and the fastest 1500m runner is east african. This is all purely coincidental.

Yes, the west african sprinter phenomenon has to do with whites being suppressed early on as sprinters. When they run too fast, they are held back, and told to slow down "or there will be some consequences." It is the reversal of how blacks were treated in all areas of life in this country up until recently. Turnabout is fair play!

Can you site a race of even moderate pace in which El Guerrouj ran the last 400m in 51 seconds?

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Well his 800m best is 1:42.70.

Thats 2 x 51.35

Please put up a link to the results to the meet where El Guerrouj ran 1:42.