Coach Cook shares his thoughts on what happened with Flannagan and Donohue

I don't know if his body type was his limit. It could have been. It might not be frame size either. Maybe his muscle attachment was off just a little which reduced his efficiency by 1%. Or it could have been his mitochondria were 1% less efficient. Or his testorone and other hormones were a little lower so he could only do 95% of the workouts of El G. Or a half a zillion other factors. When a big comes along that runs fast (John Walker is one that comes to mind) you will hear about how his size and strength give him unmatched power. When a skinny guy comes along you hear about the big engine in a small body.You don't see a lot of 6'5 elite middle distance runners. Some of that is the body type doesn't work well but a huge part of it is that there aren't that many 6'5 guys period. Once you get to the distances there are some heat dispensation and energy advantages of being smaller.

2 more words: not quite wrote:

OR wrote:

That doesn't mean if he dropped 10lbs with his current body frame he would have been a sub 3:30 dude.

I don't disagree and I never "complained about McMullen being heavy." The body type, which includes but is not limited to the weight on it, was the limiting factor, which you seem to believe as well. The same holds for Donohue. I also never contended that weight was the causation, I simply noted a strong correlation. Remember, I noted that Mutola did great with a similar build.

checked ya wrote:

Mutola didn't run the 1500, and if McMullen dropped 10 lbs he'd have a harder time knocking the other runners off the track.

O.K.-- assume that Mr. Cook was right and Donohue will never break 4:00.

Where does that leave her? What was he encouraging her to do instead of breaking her balls to run a fast 1500?

Seriously-- the woman is a professional athlete and probably can make a decent living doing it for the next 3-5 years. Being an athlete is certainly better than interning at Nike. Who knows-- if they get her the right marketing person, she's a very compelling story and could make a very good living doing endorsements.

What else, exactly, was Donohue supposed to be doing except trying to break 4:00?

OR wrote:

I don't know if his body type was his limit. It could have been. It might not be frame size either. Maybe his muscle attachment was off just a little which reduced his efficiency by 1%. Or it could have been his mitochondria were 1% less efficient. Or his testorone and other hormones were a little lower so he could only do 95% of the workouts of El G. Or a half a zillion other factors.

When a big comes along that runs fast (John Walker is one that comes to mind) you will hear about how his size and strength give him unmatched power. When a skinny guy comes along you hear about the big engine in a small body.

I agree. When John Walker and Alberto Juantorena were destroying everyone else in the mid-'70s, people were talking about how the big muscular guys were pushing the skinny little guys out of world-class distance running, just as they had in so many other events and sports. Then, in 1979, within the span of two weeks, skinny little Seb Coe broke Juantorena's 800 WR and Walker's mile WR, and suddenly everyone was talking about how the big muscular guys would never be able to compete with the skinny little guys with the big engines.

This idea that you can eyeball a 4:05 runner and determine that she'll never run 4:00 is nonsense.

p.s. Someone mentioned Cook's world champion. I assume that he was talking about the 165-pound 1500-meter runner Abdi Bile.

p.p.s. Be careful about suggesting that McMullen has lower testosterone levels than some other guy.

I said "middle distance," pay attention.

Again, this isn't about the '60s or '70s, it's about more modern trends, the '90s through now.

Break 4:04 or even 4:03.

4runner wrote:

instead of breaking her balls

I think I found the problem.

late arrival to this thread, but I will just say this. Cook is justifiably pissed about the intrusion of Edwards. The guy accomplished more than any US middle distance coach in recent memory and is being stabbed in the back. No one has really ever accused Flanagan of being a particularly normal and nice person. She is single minded and brutal in her pursuit of excellence. Her husband appears to clearly be a controlling influence. That being said, I saw her at UNC and knew from a couple races where she was clearly in no racing shape but yet she willed herself to win. Many of us could see she was the future of US distance running, even with notable collegiate setbacks to people like Lauren Fleshman in 2003 (who seemed, in talking to her, to love sticking it to Shalane). Flanagan remains unquestionably the greatest talent in mid and distance we have ever seen here in the US.

On the other hand, in regards to Erin, Cook is falling into the same trap that hundreds of others do when they underestimate Erin Donohue. Its been done since the 9th grade. After every round of "she really won't improve much from here" she has proved every single person WRONG, time after time. A warrior this Erin.

In regard to Shannon, I do feel sorry for her caught up in this mess. She has really blossomed under Cook and is indeed a nice and engaging person with amazing upside potential.

John Cook was my coach at George Mason. He is a great coach. I continually improved and even achieved a few dreams, all without any significant injuries the last 2 1/2 years.

He works his tail off for his athletes and to become a better coach. These many years later, I realize the courage it takes to do what he does. As a running coach, you operate in an individual sport without any guarantees that those individuals won't decide to just up and leave tomorrow. You have to put your time, effort, and heart into helping athletes that are, by necessity, a bit self absorbed. And since these athletes are pushing their physical and motivational limits, they are often overly sensitive to the personalities of those around them.

If you buy into his training philosophy and are looking for a great coach, John Cook is da man. He is smart, wise, and courageous.

That being said, he is a unique individual and his personality might rub some people the wrong way. If you have some big vision of how your coach/athlete relationship will be, you might end up disappointed. In the end, I think this was the root cause as to why Flanagan and Donohue decided to leave.

The biggest shock to me when I found out about this breakup was the financial arrangement between Cook and Flanagan. It absolutely boggles my mind that Cook was working with a PROFESSIONAL runner for FREE up to the Olympic Trials, then gets dumped a couple months after a contract for the table scraps (5% of Flanagans income from running) is agreed upon.

And the 90s trend is that pretty much no western runner is competitive above 1500m no matter what their body type is. Feel free to list the large group of skinny western atheletes that have run faster than Webb since 1990. Other than Cacho, I am not coming up with anyone.It if easy to focus on some visible difference and say that is the difference. It doesn't mean it is true. If you look at just kenyan/ethopian athletes is there a trend for the small one being faster?

2 more words: not quite wrote:

Again, this isn't about the '60s or '70s, it's about more modern trends, the '90s through now.

no dog in this fight ...

i can't believe that he was coaching for free ... he can't be that bright.

flanagan should be kicked in the kunt for expecting him to do more when he was already working for free - jezus. she only saw him for a small number of weeks in a year ... well, take a flyin' fvck if you expect someone to spend more time with you, if you are not going to pay them. her husband will be on letsrun looking for workouts soon.

Former Cook Athlete wrote:

The biggest shock to me when I found out about this breakup was the financial arrangement between Cook and Flanagan. It absolutely boggles my mind that Cook was working with a PROFESSIONAL runner for FREE up to the Olympic Trials, then gets dumped a couple months after a contract for the table scraps (5% of Flanagans income from running) is agreed upon.

That is indeed mind boggling.

Whether she had a contract or not, Shalane owes him big time.

OR wrote:

And the 90s trend is that pretty much no western runner is competitive above 1500m no matter what their body type is. Feel free to list the large group of skinny western atheletes that have run faster than Webb since 1990. Other than Cacho, I am not coming up with anyone.

It if easy to focus on some visible difference and say that is the difference. It doesn't mean it is true. If you look at just kenyan/ethopian athletes is there a trend for the small one being faster?

Faster wasn't the criteria used, it was competitiveness on the world stage (quickness or kick at the end of the WC or OG 1500m final). And size was stated explicitly in terms of weight per height. The lighter the runner is (for his or her height) the better he can turn it over and accelerate, even off a tough pace. Estevez, Rui, Krumm, Holman, Mayock, and now Baddeley and Willis have all competed well with the best Africans and have done so without bulked-up muscled-out physiques like Webb has.

Do Mayock, Holman, Krum, and Baddeley have any 1500m have any world/olympic outdoor medals? All very respectable but my quick memory doesn't suggest they did a lot better in championship events. Personally I think it is more of a training race thing than a body issue for webb. Mamede was skinny, blistering fast and pretty much a failure in championship races. It would be a mistake to extrapolate that skinny fast runners don't do well in championship races.Sorry I used the wrong term. I ment smaller in terms of lower weight/height ratio. The problem is I don't believe any of the published weights/heights. For example I don't think Webbs weight has changed in years but definitely looks 5lbs heavier.

Cook is paid a flat stipend from nike, a budget. He spends it all on his athletes - eg mexico training camp paid out of his budget. He doesnt need the money to live his life comfortably in FL. So, nice kick in the pants when coach/manager/naive waterboy Edwards fires him.

Another benefit that Cook provides for his athletes is a vast network of supportive friends who provide free services for his athletes - Cook has access to guys like dan pfaff,numerous therapists, several physicians who provide free advice and medical care to the athletes at no cost (Coach Edwards will soon realize that medical care and instant access to doctors is not free and ez), and the support of many other coaches around the country. Hard to put a price on that.

Great post. I have heard her speak as well and she is fantastic. She pushes herself past the point of where most will break and continues on. She is a phenomenal athlete and will probably just use Cook's words as fuel.

For a girl training at her HS track and living with her parents with barely any benefits that most elite runners get, she should really look into getting together with someone who can provide her with more. That is what will get her to the next level.

e.d. fan wrote:

For a girl training at her HS track and living with her parents with barely any benefits that most elite runners get, she should really look into getting together with someone who can provide her with more. That is what will get her to the next level.

No it won't.

You are SO incredibly negative whenever you post something. I hope you find true love or something so that you get over whatever it is that made you so bitter. No one wants to hear your negativity. Stop bringing other people down with your misery and self-loathing.